CAN WE EXCLUDE BEN-GURION / HIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FROM THE JFKA SUSPECTS?

[Guest]

It seems to me that ever increasingly on the forum that if Israel is implicated in any plot, whether it be the JFKA, USS Liberty attack or other, the poster is accused of being antisemitic or a holocaust denier. I have seen no evidence that anyone is either a holocaust denier or anti-semite here. However, I can't claim to have read every thread. It has occurred to me that these terms, which can often be deployed to slur a person, often are used to deflect or take attention away from facts. 

I came across an article last night which mentioned Mordechai Vanunu, who alleged that Israel was almost certainly behind the killing of President John F. Kennedy. 

 https://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-behind-jfk-assassination-vanunu_169996.html

 

Jerusalem, July 26: In a startling accusation,
nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that
Jerusalem was behind the assassination of US President John F.
Kennedy, who was exerting pressure on the then Israeli head of
the state to shed light on the Dimona nuclear plant.

In defiance of a ban on talking to media and meeting
with foreigners, Vanunu is said to have made the accusation in
an interview to London-based al-Hayat newspaper.

As per the interview published in newspaper's Arabic
supplement 'al-Wassat' yesterday, Vanun said according to
"near-certain indications", Kennedy was assassinated due to
"Pressure he exerted on then head of government, David
Ben-Gurion, to shed light on Dimona's nuclear reactor".

"We do not know which irresponsible Israeli prime
minister will take office and decide to use nuclear weapons in
the struggle against neighboring Arab countries," he is quoted
to have said, adding "What has already been exposed about the
weapons Israel is holding can destroy the region and kill
millions."

The whistleblower, who was released in April after 18
years of imprisonment on charges of treason for divulging
state secrets, also said that the reactor in Dimona, could
become a second "Chernobyl", local media reported

He said an earthquake could cause fissures to the core
and that would cause a massive radiation leak threatening
millions.

Bureau Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

Vanunu was a technician at the Dimona nuclear facility who turned whistleblower and spent not 18 years in prison after being kidnapped by Mossad in Italy. He is still forbidden from leaving Israel and is not allowed to talk to foreigners. 

Muramar Gadaffi also accused Israel of giving the green-light in the killing of President John F. Kennedy. 

Does the document halfway through this video hold more importance than most of us think it does? Is Ben-Gurion's resignation over JFK's intent to inspect Dimona a key moment in this history? Who were Ben-Gurion's close friends and allies in the West? Are there any significant players that feature in the JFKA discussion here? 

Did Israel have a strong enough motivation? They were desperate to achieve their nuclear ambitions. Their track record has an heir of fanaticism. The way they have treated the Palestinians, the kidnappings, the assassinations, the utterly ruthless behaviour. Would Mossad have seen killing a US president as a step too far? Or did they see it as necessary for their survival? 

Does the mysterious 1965 Apollo affair have any significance? Something also integral to Israel's nuclear program. That could surely have never happened if JFK was still president. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair

I'd be interested in your thoughts. I am not positing that they are solely responsible, more than they can be a component of a conspiracy. 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Chris Barnard
typo

[Pamela Brown]

I don't see the problem of Israeli involvement in the assassination of JFK in terms of a particular person or administration, per se. Instead, I see this as an objection to the Kennedys because of Papa Joe's appeasement of Hitler, which was so objectionable that FDR felt he had to recall him from the Court of St. James.

In that light, any Kennedy in high office can be perceived as a problem for Israel. 

[Pete Mellor]

Chris,

41 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Who were Ben-Gurion's close friends and allies in the West? Are there any significant players that feature in the JFKA discussion here? 

Who were Ben Gurion's close friends in the West?  Look no further than CIA's head of the Israeli desk, namely James Jesus Angleton.  He was having regular one on one meetings with Ben Gurion at his home in the Negev.  "There were just the two of them. He had business to transact" according to Efraim Halevy, who served as Mossad's liason officer to the CIA station in Tel Aviv in the early 1960's.  Angleton visited Ben Gurion pre and post his time in office.

As John Newman wrote in 'Oswald & the CIA', I would like to place on record, however, that Angleton's professional friends overseas, then and subsequently, came from the Mossad and that he was held in immense esteem by his Israeli colleagues and by the State of Israel, which was to award him profound honours after his death.

As for Dimona, in 1960 Angleton ignored a request from the U.S. Intelligence Board, which reviewed CIA operations on behalf of the White House, that all information regarding Dimona be transmitted expeditiously.  Angleton also ignored or failed to report about the stealing of weapons grade enriched uranium from NUMEC.  Over the nine years from 1959 to 1968 the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission estimated that 267 kg of uranium went missing from NUMEC.  One Israeli who visited the NUMEC plant, masquerading as a nuclear engineer was a Mossad agent named Rafael Eitan, who was known to Angleton.  His close personal ties with the De Shalit family and others in Israel made it inevitable that he would learn about the Dimona construction in the Negev.  Yet he never reported any of this, committing treason against JFK's nuclear non-proliferation policy.

As I have posted in other threads, Yitzhak Rabin, then a high ranking military officer, purportedly on a military briefing tour, just happened to be in Dallas at the time of JFK's assassination, according to Rabin's widow.  Angleton is also reported to have met Rabin as often as five times a week in the late '60's when Rabin was Israeli Ambassador in D.C.

It was Angleton's CIA Israeli desk that wrote the report for LBJ on the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, nothing to see here, move along.

The alleged assassin's assassin Jacob Rubinstein, always reputed to have mob ties, who stated that he rubbed out Oswald because, "I did it for the Jews."  It is documented in W.C. testimony that Ruby was with Yiddish speaking 'reporters' in the D.P.D. stalking Oswald.

I am also surprised at how little thought seems to be directed towards Israel as being in some way a promoter of JFK's removal from office.  We hear CIA, Anti Castro, Big Oil, JCS, MIC etc etc being involved, but rarely Israel.  The anti-semitic slurs are very often directed at anyone who so much as gives any negative opinion on Israeli politics etc., I consider these to be just stupid & negative, exactly the same as calling anyone who questions the U.S. verdicts on the assassinations of the 60's a wacky conspiracy theorist.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Here is a speech JFK gave to the Zionists of America in 1960.  https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/speech-senator-john-f-kennedy-zionists-america-convention-statler-hilton-hotel-new-york-ny

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

I don't see the problem of Israeli involvement in the assassination of JFK in terms of a particular person or administration, per se. Instead, I see this as an objection to the Kennedys because of Papa Joe's appeasement of Hitler, which was so objectionable that FDR felt he had to recall him from the Court of St. James.

In that light, any Kennedy in high office can be perceived as a problem for Israel. 

In contrast it was Joseph Kennedy Snr (along with Chamberlain, British PM) who suggested that FDR use the entire quota of immigrants entrants for Jewish people who wished to escape the odious situation in Europe. FDR said; it’s not our problem, or something to that affect.

If Israel were to be mad about anything, it might be the Rockefeller’s selling oil to Hitler, and other industrialists profiting, or even the fact the US helped 1000 scientists escape German and gave then freedom in the USA. 
 

I think Joe’s recalling was more to do with his close relationship with Chamberlain and others, and FDR didn’t feel he was getting the full picture from his ambassador. ie he didn’t have his full confidence and Joe was running his mouth. The friction starts there. The Patriach by Nasaw covers a lot of this. 

[Guest]

Some food for thought:

We all ask the question about what could be in the remaining classified CIA documents. We make the case that nobody is alive now who may have been involved. However, if they were to reveal Israeli government / Mossad involvement, then I can see that it would be relevant today, to the reputations of the US and Israel in terms of public trust. The ramifications would be significant. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Here is a speech JFK gave to the Zionists of America in 1960.  https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/speech-senator-john-f-kennedy-zionists-america-convention-statler-hilton-hotel-new-york-ny

Thanks Chuck. Interesting the original vision was a state without arms. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Chris,

Who were Ben Gurion's close friends in the West?  Look no further than CIA's head of the Israeli desk, namely James Jesus Angleton.  He was having regular one on one meetings with Ben Gurion at his home in the Negev.  "There were just the two of them. He had business to transact" according to Efraim Halevy, who served as Mossad's liason officer to the CIA station in Tel Aviv in the early 1960's.  Angleton visited Ben Gurion pre and post his time in office.

As John Newman wrote in 'Oswald & the CIA', I would like to place on record, however, that Angleton's professional friends overseas, then and subsequently, came from the Mossad and that he was held in immense esteem by his Israeli colleagues and by the State of Israel, which was to award him profound honours after his death.

As for Dimona, in 1960 Angleton ignored a request from the U.S. Intelligence Board, which reviewed CIA operations on behalf of the White House, that all information regarding Dimona be transmitted expeditiously.  Angleton also ignored or failed to report about the stealing of weapons grade enriched uranium from NUMEC.  Over the nine years from 1959 to 1968 the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission estimated that 267 kg of uranium went missing from NUMEC.  One Israeli who visited the NUMEC plant, masquerading as a nuclear engineer was a Mossad agent named Rafael Eitan, who was known to Angleton.  His close personal ties with the De Shalit family and others in Israel made it inevitable that he would learn about the Dimona construction in the Negev.  Yet he never reported any of this, committing treason against JFK's nuclear non-proliferation policy.

As I have posted in other threads, Yitzhak Rabin, then a high ranking military officer, purportedly on a military briefing tour, just happened to be in Dallas at the time of JFK's assassination, according to Rabin's widow.  Angleton is also reported to have met Rabin as often as five times a week in the late '60's when Rabin was Israeli Ambassador in D.C.

It was Angleton's CIA Israeli desk that wrote the report for LBJ on the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty, nothing to see here, move along.

The alleged assassin's assassin Jacob Rubinstein, always reputed to have mob ties, who stated that he rubbed out Oswald because, "I did it for the Jews."  It is documented in W.C. testimony that Ruby was with Yiddish speaking 'reporters' in the D.P.D. stalking Oswald.

I am also surprised at how little thought seems to be directed towards Israel as being in some way a promoter of JFK's removal from office.  We hear CIA, Anti Castro, Big Oil, JCS, MIC etc etc being involved, but rarely Israel.  The anti-semitic slurs are very often directed at anyone who so much as gives any negative opinion on Israeli politics etc., I consider these to be just stupid & negative, exactly the same as calling anyone who questions the U.S. verdicts on the assassinations of the 60's a wacky conspiracy theorist.

 

Very interesting stuff, Pete. I didn’t have the appetite last night. I do wonder which other zionists we can tie into this and how close Ben-Gurion’s relationship was with other powerful US elites at the time.

[Pete Mellor]

6 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Very interesting stuff, Pete. I didn’t have the appetite last night. I do wonder which other zionists we can tie into this and how close Ben-Gurion’s relationship was with other powerful US elites at the time.

Well, with reference to NUMEC, it was set-up by David Lowenthal & he was a Zionist financier.  Keeping it in God's family, NUMEC was run by Zalman Shapiro (Whoopa Oh yeah yeah!) he was the son of an orthodox rabbi from Lithuania, who was also head of the local chapter of the Zionist Organisation of America.

(I have answered this thread because JFK & Ben Gurion's problems over Dimona in '61 & '62 puts Israel's Mossad in the frame to act on Nov. '63.  I see too many links between LHO & Angleton along with the post assassination cover-up, & Angleton & Mossad to not discount this possibility.  Of course, as regards all the possible players behind the 'big event', until proof is uncovered, nobody knows.  I do feel that, certainly in my remaining life time, nobody will know.)

[Pat Speer]

17 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

It seems to me that ever increasingly on the forum that if Israel is implicated in any plot, whether it be the JFKA, USS Liberty attack or other, the poster is accused of being antisemitic or a holocaust denier. I have seen no evidence that anyone is either a holocaust denier or anti-semite here. However, I can't claim to have read every thread. It has occurred to me that these terms, which can often be deployed to slur a person, often are used to deflect or take attention away from facts. 

I came across an article last night which mentioned Mordechai Vanunu, who alleged that Israel was almost certainly behind the killing of President John F. Kennedy. 

 https://zeenews.india.com/news/world/israel-behind-jfk-assassination-vanunu_169996.html

 

Jerusalem, July 26: In a startling accusation,
nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that
Jerusalem was behind the assassination of US President John F.
Kennedy, who was exerting pressure on the then Israeli head of
the state to shed light on the Dimona nuclear plant.

In defiance of a ban on talking to media and meeting
with foreigners, Vanunu is said to have made the accusation in
an interview to London-based al-Hayat newspaper.

As per the interview published in newspaper's Arabic
supplement 'al-Wassat' yesterday, Vanun said according to
"near-certain indications", Kennedy was assassinated due to
"Pressure he exerted on then head of government, David
Ben-Gurion, to shed light on Dimona's nuclear reactor".

"We do not know which irresponsible Israeli prime
minister will take office and decide to use nuclear weapons in
the struggle against neighboring Arab countries," he is quoted
to have said, adding "What has already been exposed about the
weapons Israel is holding can destroy the region and kill
millions."

The whistleblower, who was released in April after 18
years of imprisonment on charges of treason for divulging
state secrets, also said that the reactor in Dimona, could
become a second "Chernobyl", local media reported

He said an earthquake could cause fissures to the core
and that would cause a massive radiation leak threatening
millions.

Bureau Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

Vanunu was a technician at the Dimona nuclear facility who turned whistleblower and spent not 18 years in prison after being kidnapped by Mossad in Italy. He is still forbidden from leaving Israel and is not allowed to talk to foreigners. 

Muramar Gadaffi also accused Israel of giving the green-light in the killing of President John F. Kennedy. 

Does the document halfway through this video hold more importance than most of us think it does? Is Ben-Gurion's resignation over JFK's intent to inspect Dimona a key moment in this history? Who were Ben-Gurion's close friends and allies in the West? Are there any significant players that feature in the JFKA discussion here? 

Did Israel have a strong enough motivation? They were desperate to achieve their nuclear ambitions. Their track record has an heir of fanaticism. The way they have treated the Palestinians, the kidnappings, the assassinations, the utterly ruthless behaviour. Would Mossad have seen killing a US president as a step too far? Or did they see it as necessary for their survival? 

Does the mysterious 1965 Apollo affair have any significance? Something also integral to Israel's nuclear program. That could surely have never happened if JFK was still president. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair

I'd be interested in your thoughts. I am not positing that they are solely responsible, more than they can be a component of a conspiracy. 

 

A bit of background. This website was started by Andy Walker and John Simkin. The idea behind it was to have a serious wide-reaching discussion of the JFK case among people who've written about it and people who claimed to have specialized knowledge about the case. I believe Judy Baker, Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, Daniel Marvin, and Harry Dean were among the first members. A few years in, however, some of the latter-day invitees started wondering about the Israeli connection, and things got ugly. People who wrote about possible Israeli involvement would routinely push a button by insinuating everyone involved even tangentially to the case who was Jewish, from Jack Ruby to Mark Lane, was working together or some such thing. Whereby the thread would devolve into chaos and name-calling. After this happened a couple of times it got the attention of some pro-Israel hackers, who shut down the forum more than once if I recall.  So...Andy and John ended up making a hard-fast rule: discussion of Israeli involvement was verboten. It just isn't worth the headache. There was one researcher who continued to post about it, however, under moderation, whereby the moderators would eventually approve or disapprove his posts after a day or two. But the problem largely dried up. 

I think it was after this period, moreover, when Michael Collins Piper briefly joined the forum. He was well-behaved and offered to send some members free copies his book. But he never followed through and went away. I think he died a few years later, so perhaps his health was a factor. 

So...if you check the back pages of this place, you might find a lot to chew on...

Edited May 1, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Benjamin Cole]

Who knew LHO was Jewish? 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

A bit of background. This website was started by Andy Walker and John Simkin. The idea behind it was to have a serious wide-reaching discussion of the JFK case among people who've written about it and people who claimed to have specialized knowledge about the case. I believe Judy Baker, Gerry Hemming, Tosh Plumlee, Daniel Marvin, and Harry Dean were among the first members. A few years in, however, some of the latter-day invitees started wondering about the Israeli connection, and things got ugly. People who wrote about possible Israeli involvement would routinely push a button by insinuating everyone involved even tangentially to the case who was Jewish, from Jack Ruby to Mark Lane, was working together or some such thing. Whereby the thread would devolve into chaos and name-calling. After this happened a couple of times it got the attention of some pro-Israel hackers, who shut down the forum more than once if I recall.  So...Andy and John ended up making a hard-fast rule: discussion of Israeli involvement was verboten. It just isn't worth the headache. There was one researcher who continued to post about it, however, under moderation, whereby the moderators would eventually approve or disapprove his posts after a day or two. But the problem largely dried up. 

I think it was after this period, moreover, when Michael Collins Piper briefly joined the forum. He was well-behaved and offered to send some members free copies his book. But he never followed through and went away. I think he died a few years later, so perhaps his health was a factor. 

So...if you check the back pages of this place, you might find a lot to chew on...

Thanks for the background, Pat. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

20 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

I am not positing that they are solely responsible, more than they can be a component of a conspiracy. 

Have you read Jefferson Morley's "The Ghost" ? I would think this would strongly disabuse any rational person of the notion that Israel was involved in Kennedy's assassination.

[Paul Brancato]

It seems very likely, given the former Mossad agents who wrote about this, that Mossad hired Otto Skorzeny in 1962 to bust up Egypt’s nuclear program.

[Paul Brancato]

16 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

In contrast it was Joseph Kennedy Snr (along with Chamberlain, British PM) who suggested that FDR use the entire quota of immigrants entrants for Jewish people who wished to escape the odious situation in Europe. FDR said; it’s not our problem, or something to that affect.

If Israel were to be mad about anything, it might be the Rockefeller’s selling oil to Hitler, and other industrialists profiting, or even the fact the US helped 1000 scientists escape German and gave then freedom in the USA. 
 

I think Joe’s recalling was more to do with his close relationship with Chamberlain and others, and FDR didn’t feel he was getting the full picture from his ambassador. ie he didn’t have his full confidence and Joe was running his mouth. The friction starts there. The Patriach by Nasaw covers a lot of this. 

I think this is more on point. The Joe Kennedy was a N…. sympathizer story doesn’t hold up.