Calling Jim DiEugenio: new book claims to outdo Posner and Bugliosi in debunking conspiracy

[Michael Griffith]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Okay MG.

Just want to mention though that all of em...Republican and Democrats grab all that unethical payoff money as much as they can.

They all cash in.

I'm calling them "all" out on this scam.

Carter only got $50,000 a talk?

Guess he didn't do very many favors for the big boys downtown when he was Prez.

Yeah, the Obamas live large. He golfs here at Pebble Beach and at one of the top five most exclusive clubs in the world here also...Cypress Point.

Finest hotel stays. Finest restaurants.

Clinton does the same thing.

Now, back to the JFKA research debate!

I'm just not into the politics of envy and entitlement. And I don't view making money from speeches as "payoff money." Nor do I view speaking to Wall Street firms as evil. 

Based on the introduction and the first three chapters of Brandus's book, my guess is that the book will prove easy to refute. Certainly anyone who claims in 2023 that the shooting only took six seconds is probably not very well read on the case. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[David Josephs]

24 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Certainly anyone who claims in 2023 that the shooting only took six seconds is probably not very well read on the case

Certainly anyone who in 2023 claims that Oswald is guilty of any of these murders.... or the Evidence we have is in any way indicative of what occurred... is simply not able to deal in the realm of reality, has any real sense of history, or understands the reach and power of the military industrial congressional complex in the mid-60's.

I'm certainly not here to pull a Charles Drago on anyone - he and I had our direct confrontations despite our agreeing on so much - I just feel, as with the case of the flat-earthers and moon-landing deniers, it's time to move away from conclusions which have no basis in reality or are not supported by anything which can be considered real evidence not easily dismissed with the most cursory of analysis.

fwiw - I now have a slightly used soapbox for sale, cheap.  

[Pat Speer]

59 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

I'm just not into the politics of envy and entitlement. And I don't view making money from speeches as "payoff money." Nor do I view speaking to Wall Street firms as evil. 

Based on the introduction and the first three chapters of Brandus's book, my guess is that the book will prove easy to refute. Certainly anyone who claims in 2023 that the shooting only took six seconds is probably not very well read on the case. 

Except you're wrong about the 6 seconds. The first shot did not miss. That was offered up as a possibility by the WC when they knew it was unlikely and offered up as a likelihood by CBS in order to give "Oswald" enough time. It is, essentially, a hoax. 

The reality is that most LNs assume JFK and JBC were hit by the same shot at Z-224, AND that most if not all LNs assume JFK was hit by the last shot, at Z-313. This means their favored scenario is actually not three shots in 6 seconds, but three shots in...4.9 seconds. 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Pat. 

Pat has done some really good work on this on his web site. 

He blew up Bugliosi on this point.

Secondly, it is not out of bounds to note where a book comes from either.

Are we to ignore how Epstein was courted by Readers Digest for his cover up book Legend, on which Angleton was a chief consultant?

Are we also to ignore how Posner was recruited by Bob Loomis and Harold Evans at Random House?

I don't think so.  Its both revealing and important. Neither would have happened without that backing.

Edited May 5, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:32 PM, Pat Speer said:

Except you're wrong about the 6 seconds. The first shot did not miss. That was offered up as a possibility by the WC when they knew it was unlikely and offered up as a likelihood by CBS in order to give "Oswald" enough time. It is, essentially, a hoax. 

 

Pat... can you define your "1st shot" please.  I've always been of the mind that a shot was fired just as they completed the turn which missed badly kicking up concrete seen by a number of people circa extant 156/157 around the "break" in the film.  With the acknowledged first shot within a few frames either way of extant 207 - another significant break in the film.

Above, I believe, is Hickey's reaction to that 1st bullet hitting the concrete.  I don't have the names of the witnesses at my ready, sorry.

As to shots after that not missing, I agree entirely except for the Tague bullet.  I think the Tague bullet being so wide was the result of a shot from a lower elevation missing when JFK was moved by other striking bullets.

I also seem to remember that Davidson's work confirms a shot fired at about extant 157 .  I'd need to confirm though.

Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:32 PM, Pat Speer said:

The reality is that most LNs assume JFK and JBC were hit by the same shot at Z-224, AND that most if not all LNs assume JFK was hit by the last shot, at Z-313. This means their favored scenario is actually not three shots in 6 seconds, but three shots in...4.9 seconds. 

Not at all. The favored LN scenario is, of course, three shots in 8+ seconds, with the first shot occurring at circa Z160. And, of course, there is some evidence to support such a Z160 first shot, in the form of Rosemary Willis' reaction and her subsequent comments on the subject, plus Governor Connally's right turn starting at about Z164.

Yes, there are several (many) witnesses who seemed to think JFK was reacting to his wounds right after the first shot. I don't deny such witness testimony exists. But it's my opinion—based on the accumulated evidence that has convinced me beyond all doubt that the Single-Bullet Theory is most certainly true and occurred at circa Z224—that those witnesses who thought JFK was struck by Shot #1 are simply wrong.

After the shocking and fast-moving shooting event took place, those eyewitnesses were asked to try and piece together a timeline of the shots in order to discern which of the shots hit the two victims, and I think a lot of those witnesses fall into the same category that Nellie Connally falls into (even though those witnesses don't realize it), which is this category (IMO):

A witness who heard an unexpected noise (the first rifle shot), then started looking around to see if they could locate the source of that noise, then heard a second gunshot, then (and only then) caught a glimpse of President Kennedy in the limousine with his hands coming up to his throat.

Given the fact that I (along with about 95% of all other Lone Assassin believers in the world) think that Shot #1 missed everybody in the limousine, and Shot #2 was the SBT shot that struck both Kennedy and Connally, and Shot #3 was the fatal head shot that struck only JFK....this combination of beliefs concerning the shot sequence, therefore, has to mean (per LNers like myself) that many of the Dealey Plaza witnesses were simply mistaken in their belief that Shot #1 struck the President.

Ergo, in reality (IMO), those witnesses really heard TWO gunshots fired in Dealey Plaza prior to the point in time when they noticed President Kennedy reacting to being hit. In attempting to re-create the sequence of events, however, many of the witnesses thought they saw Kennedy reacting to being hit by Shot #1, when (in reality) two rifle shots had been fired prior to their taking note of JFK's reactions.

If put in the same position that those Dealey Plaza witnesses were put into on 11/22/63, could anybody here at this forum (or anywhere else) guarantee that they would be able to precisely piece together the brief shooting timeline accurately enough so that they would be able to confidently say that they know with 100% certainty which of the gunshots first struck John F. Kennedy?

Given the sudden and wholly unexpected nature of those gunshots that were fired on November 22nd, if anyone answers "Yes, I could very easily do that" to the question I just asked above, I would have my doubts as to whether that person was telling me the full truth (unless they were related to Superman).

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Matthew Koch]

The Warren Commission scenario wasn't fixed but they for the most part thought; first shot hit, second shot missed and third shot hit. When CBS did their "re-investigation" in 67' they came up with another scenario based on Luis Alvarez's jiggle analysis and had the first shot missing and happening earlier, and the second and third shots hitting, with the second shot happening later.

After that Failure Analysis found the lapel flip at 224 and then Posner came along and and came up with the bright idea that it was possible for the first missed shot to hit a tree branch and cause the core of the bullet to become removed from the jacket and cause the curb strike and the removed jacket to cause the windshield fragment. Warren Commission's was between 4.7-6 seconds and the CBS earlier missed shot is an 8 second shooting sequence. 

[James DiEugenio]

The Warren Commission technically never committed to a shot sequencing.

But they did allow for the Tague hit which the FBI did not.

Tague said he heard the first shot.  So if you only allow for three shots--which I do not agree with--then the first shot hit.

Both the 224 timing and the lapel flip are hoaxes.  

[Pat Speer]

n

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Not at all. The favored LN scenario is, of course, three shots in 8+ seconds, with the first shot occurring at circa Z160. And, of course, there is some evidence to support such a Z160 first shot, in the form of Rosemary Willis' reaction and her subsequent comments on the subject, plus Governor Connally's right turn starting at about Z164.

Yes, there are several (many) witnesses who seemed to think JFK was reacting to his wounds right after the first shot. I don't deny such witness testimony exists. But it's my opinion—based on the acculumated evidence that has convinced me beyond all doubt that the Single-Bullet Theory is most certainly true and occurred at circa Z224—that those witnesses who thought JFK was struck by Shot #1 are simply wrong.

After the shocking and fast-moving shooting event took place, those eyewitnesses were asked to try and piece together a timeline of the shots in order to discern which of the shots hit the two victims, and I think a lot of those witnesses fall into the same category that Nellie Connally falls into (even though those witnesses don't realize it), which is this category (IMO):

A witness who heard an unexpected noise (the first rifle shot), then started looking around to see if they could locate the source of that noise, then heard a second gunshot, then (and only then) caught a glimpse of President Kennedy in the limousine with his hands coming up to his throat.

Given the fact that I (along with about 95% of all other Lone Assassin believers in the world) think that Shot #1 missed everybody in the limousine, and Shot #2 was the SBT shot that struck both Kennedy and Connally, and Shot #3 was the fatal head shot that struck only JFK....this combination of beliefs concerning the shot sequence, therefore, has to mean (per LNers like myself) that many of the Dealey Plaza witnesses were simply mistaken in their belief that Shot #1 struck the President.

Ergo, in reality (IMO), those witnesses really heard TWO gunshots fired in Dealey Plaza prior to the point in time when they noticed President Kennedy reacting to being hit. In attempting to re-create the sequence of events, however, many of the witnesses thought they saw Kennedy reacting to being hit by Shot #1, when (in reality) two rifle shots had been fired prior to their taking note of JFK's reactions.

If put in the same position that those Dealey Plaza witnesses were put into on 11/22/63, could anybody here at this forum (or anywhere else) guarantee that they would be able to precisely piece together the brief shooting timeline accurately enough so that they would be able to confidently say that they know with 100% certainty which of the gunshots first struck John F. Kennedy?

Given the sudden and wholly unexpected nature of those gunshots that were fired on November 22nd, if anyone answers "Yes, I could very easily do that" to the question I just asked above, I would have my doubts as to whether that person was telling me the full truth (unless they were related to Superman).

 

The point is that only a handful of witnesses thought the first shot missed--and their statements all suggested the first shot hit when you compared their statements to the Z-film and photographic evidence--and that no one following the story thought the first shot missed. And then--oh my God--CBS performs their own analysis--which suggests the shooter needed more time--and--BINGO--they now pretended the first shot missed. This then became the go-to scenario for the Oswald-did-it crowd. But it wasn't written in stone. The LNs wrote it in stone, however, after Posner's book came out and cited the lapel flip, which suggested Connally was hit circa Z-224 and made the first shot circa Z-190 accepted by the HSCA enemy #1--so much that most if not all the key LN books to come out since the 90's have ignored that a panel of photographic experts determined JFK was hit before he went behind the sign in the Z-film, and not after. 

In short, then, the "miss" at Z-160 is garbage, a hoax. Numerous witnesses saw JFK come off the right side of the limo in response to the first shot, and none saw him continue waving for seconds and then respond to a second shot. The Warren Commission/Specter knew damn well they couldn't claim the first shot missed so they just threw a potential first shot miss into the mix. But no one took it seriously. Until a few years passed. And people forgot about all the witnesses claiming they saw him respond to the first shot. 

But people with an interest in history know better. 

[Gerry Down]

20 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

n

 

he first shot circa Z-190 accepted by the HSCA enemy #1

The WCR did not come to a determination as to which shot missed. The HSCA however said it was the first shot that missed. Do you know off hand what part of the HSCA report or which of it's 12 volumes made the comment it was the first shot that missed?

On pages 41 to 53 the HSCA report only mentions the two shots that actually struck Kennedy, and no mention of the shot that missed. The DeRonja report says that HSCA said the first shot missed but does not provide a reference of where in the HSCA investigation report and/or it's volumes this was stated. Very frustrating. 

Do you know off hand where the first missed shot is discussed in the HSCA report and/or in it's 12 volumes?

[David Josephs]

26 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

In short, then, the "miss" at Z-160 is garbage, a hoax

the "miss" or the "shot" is a hoax Pat?

Wishing I had better images of course, yet it appears to me that JFK's head swivels considerably in the span of 1 damaged frame using 153 as an indicator he was definitely looking to his left with 157 appearing as if he still looks in that direction, then the break, and then him facing a different direction.

You don't find it just a bit coincidental that we have a splice in the film with the no intersprocket frame exactly where all us crackpots place the first shot which missed?

How can you rule out a shot there given the circumstances of the film and what we actually see occur just prior and during that period?

Or are you saying the 160 shot did hit him?  Sorry for my confusion

. 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Tague said he heard the first shot.  So if you only allow for three shots--which I do not agree with--then the first shot hit.

Definitely more than three shots.  I personally believe the first shot did hit JFK, in the throat.

[Ron Bulman]

One shot in the throat.  One over the right eye in the hairline.  Another in the right temple near the top of the right ear, slightly in front of it.  One in the lower portion of the rear of the head from the rear.  Something went in his back an inch, then fell out (?).  At least one shot hit Connally, maybe two?  

Taking out the back and second Connally shot that's still four.  Leaving them in with a miss or two that's 8-9.

Impossible for most to conceive, a deep conspiracy, with multiple shooters.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Pat Speer]

To reiterate, the eyewitness evidence is conclusive on this issue. I compiled all the known witness statements and added probably a couple of hundred more, and it's clear that, of the three sounds heard by most witnesses, the first one corresponded to the first shot hitting Kennedy. In other words, there was no first shot miss. The evidence for such a miss was cherry-picked years later to give "Oswald" enough time to fire the shots. But it's nonsense.

While some cite Connally's turn as "proof" for example, the reality is Connally himself viewed the Z-film numerous times and said he thought the first shot was fired circa 190 and hit JFK. He also said he had straightened out in the limo just before the first shot. 

The more telling fact is that a dozen or more witnesses, including Connally, described the limo's location at the time of the first shot, and they uniformly placed it where it was between Z-190 and Z-224. This is not something one can just ignore because one thinks one can see a missed shot on a silent film. 

[Michael Griffith]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:32 PM, Pat Speer said:

Except you're wrong about the 6 seconds. The first shot did not miss. That was offered up as a possibility by the WC when they knew it was unlikely and offered up as a likelihood by CBS in order to give "Oswald" enough time. It is, essentially, a hoax. 

The reality is that most LNs assume JFK and JBC were hit by the same shot at Z-224, AND that most if not all LNs assume JFK was hit by the last shot, at Z-313. This means their favored scenario is actually not three shots in 6 seconds, but three shots in...4.9 seconds. 

I think the evidence of a shot at Z186-190 is compelling--not just strong, but compelling. LNs ignore this evidence because it destroys their shooting scenario and the SBT. They know that the bullet that hit JFK at around Z190 could not have been the same bullet that collapses Connally's right shoulder and causes a pained look on his face starting at Z236. 

The far-fetched Z224 SBT means that the alleged lone gunman, at the very least, went two for two in 4.9 seconds, a feat that not one of the Master-rated riflemen in the WC's rifle test was able to duplicate.