RFK jr says CIA killed JFK

[Michael Griffith]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:09 PM, David Josephs said:

The CIA was not in the room at Bethesda.  The CIA didn't order the doctors to do what they did and not do what they should have.

This is true, but the military may have been ordered by their civilian superiors to conceal the truth about JFK's wounds with the excuse that this was necessary to avoid World War III, or the military brass at Bethesda may have been misled by the Secret Service into believing that the Kennedy family did not want a complete autopsy. Given Doug Horne's evidence that the Secret Service facilitated the alteration of the skull x-rays and the suppression of autopsy photos, this suggests the military may not have been the driving force behind the medical cover-up.

The CIA did not control the FBI either, and the FBI played a leading role in the cover-up regarding the evidence against Oswald and Oswald's activities. 

The CIA was not the agency whose agents literally abducted JFK's body in Dallas, prevented the local medical examiner from performing an autopsy, and whisked the body off to DC. The Secret Service also confiscated news footage of Dr. Perry's observations about the throat wound.

There was so much more going on here than the stuff done by the CIA. 

 

 

[David Josephs]

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This is true, but the military may have been ordered by their civilian superiors to conceal the truth

Who would that be Mike?  Who do you think gave LeMay orders other than JFK... McNamara or Gilpatrick?

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Given Doug Horne's evidence that the Secret Service facilitated the alteration of the skull x-rays and the suppression of autopsy photos, this suggests the military may not have been the driving force behind the medical cover-up

Again Mike - you contend that Greer or Kellerman could tell LeMay and Galloway and Burkley what to say and do?  I'd need a bit more to support that contention before accepting it.

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

The CIA did not control the FBI either, and the FBI played a leading role in the cover-up regarding the evidence against Oswald and Oswald's activities.

You are making my argument for me.  Yet I've offered the idea that MEXCIO was created to do just that... keep the FBI and Hoover doing as they were told...  How many of the top FBI brass spent time in the military?

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

The CIA was not the agency whose agents literally abducted JFK's body in Dallas, prevented the local medical examiner from performing an autopsy, and whisked the body off to DC. The Secret Service also confiscated news footage of Dr. Perry's observations about the throat wound.

There was so much more going on here than the stuff done by the CIA. 

Again, your making my argument.  The CIA were players in the farce under the control of military intelligence.  Name a few involved who did not spend time under the military at one time or another - up to 1963.  How many were beholden to the CIA?

 

Edit:  we need to move this to another thread MIKE...  meet me around the corner in the cafe, 2nd booth from the west wall 

Edited May 9, 2023 by David Josephs

[Matthew Koch]

Decent coverage of RFK Jr's remarks about the topic, at the end RFK Jr's candidacy briefly discussed about how it Venn diagrams with populist conservatives. 

 

[Douglas Caddy]

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Fantastic! 👏🏼

[Roger Odisio]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Context Jim... you've taken what I wrote our of context completely.  The point was in reply to a question.  

That the CIA is the chosen boogie man in all things abhorrent, and for good reason as well as to get those who don't listen to much to stand up and notice...  I applaud RFK Jr. - never said otherwise.

I simply made the point we do not have the plethora of documents from the purely military agencies and acronyms, or the I&NS, as we do from the CIA and for good reason.   The CIA takes the brunt of all these attacks while "same as it ever was" activity is honed and sharpened within the Military Establishment.

Nobody hauls out accusations towards the ONI in a public forum... why?  we have little if any documentation to back us up... like calling out the NSA...   How damaging really to the military were the Pentagon papers?  They weren't called "The Langley Papers" now were they?

It still takes courage to call out the CIA for JFK... we both know there were no CIA in that room at Bethesda.  Whether the populace knows or not isn't relevant.  "   the CIA" will be allowed... Do it to the NSA or ONI or the like and you're a traitor no matter how right you may be.   Didn't mean to rile you so.

I was addressing a direct question.

I'm very happy Douglass' book is getting the attention it needs.  We can't rewrite history so the CIA is guilty of everything the Military/NSA has ever done just because it makes a better soundbite. 

Your military vs CIA juxtaposition is wanting, David.  At base this is a question of foreign policy. The military is a tool of that policy; they decide, they run, virtually nothing, even in these times of perpetual war.  They do what the war machine planners tell them to do.  And when JFK got an up close look at the JCS he was appalled at their stupidity.  They were incapable of making or even advising about, important decisions and he resolved to ignore as much as possible.

 

If you have been in the military and had occasion to observe "the brass" on up the chain of command, you can see what he was talking about.  

 

In the 50s when the CIA led war machine took over foreign policy, it was under the leadership of the Dulles brothers.  John Foster, Secty of State and Allen, CIA Director. 

 

Who do you think planned and ran the operations in Iran and Guatemala?  Who murdered Lamumba and then Hammarskjold, when he tried to interfere in the Congo?

 

What do you think Truman was talking about when, one month after the JFKA, he ran a piece in the WaPo urging the elimination of the war powers the CIA had accumulated that he, as the originator of a central repository for intelligence gathering, never meant them to have. It was of course too late. They had eliminated the last impediment to their leadership one month before.

 

And btw, I found something Michael said I can finally agree with. The CIA did ignore JFK's attempt to bring their war making powers under the control of the Pentagon.  That simply provided another reason for them to kill him.  But it also points to the fact that JFK realized who the real monster was that stood in the way of his vision for peace--the CIA, not the fools running the Defense Dept.

 

That brings me to your 3 part model of inquiry. 

 

DJ:  SPONSORS
FACILITATORS
MECHANICS

 

When looking at the assassination and related cover-ups in this manner - at least for me - it became crystal clear.

 

One can only guess at the sponsors, educated guesses yes, but by their very nature and the propaganda they control, pinning them down by saying "it was the Rockefellers" may placate a few, but is not really saying anything on which to hold them accountable.

Facilitators in this play are the people we blame the most on this forum... the seen CIA, the hidden Military Intelligence.  Atlee Phillips for example, Joannides another... Dulles a conduit between them and the Sponsors.  A facilitator does what they do to remain in the good graces of the Sponsors - to be accepted (and funded) by them with wild fantasies of becoming one...  that hardly ever happens unless that Facilitator shows the capacity to be invisible while in their role.

 

Finally, the Mechanics... the Mafia, Cubans, boots on the ground military... Humes in this case.  When facilitator LeMay enters the room Humes wets his pants and does what he is told to do.  They are expendable if they resist, and expendable if they don't yet need to be removed.

 

RO:  This is missing the most important element--the planners. Sponsors implies mostly financial backers, as, e.g., in your example of the Rockefellers. But sponsors doesn't imply planners, does it?  Clearly whatever role people like the Rockefellers played, they did not plan the murder.  You then say that the facilitators (again not the planners) do what they do "to remain in the good graces of the Sponsors - to be accepted (and funded) by them".

 

This is backwards.  Allen Dulles knew David Rockefeller well enough to know that Rockefeller supported or at least would not stand in the way of the JFKA.  Dulles may have let Rockefeller in on the plan before hand, but I doubt it. There was no reason to. It doesn't matter.  I'm sure Rockefeller knew what happened soon after it went down, as did most in Washington who kept their mouth shut.  Staying in David Rockefellers' good graces was unlikely to be much of a problem for Dulles but how much do you think it would have mattered if it was? 

 

Where did you ever get the idea that the CIA needed money from people like Rockefeller to do the job.  Can you identify anyone, in Washington or elsewhere, to this day who knows what the CIA's budget is (or whether they actually have a budget in the sense of a restraint on their actions), let alone what they do. Where do you think the money spent by Washington, not just by the CIA, comes from?

 

Adding the category of Planner to your model would allow you to get to the heart of the matter.  And probably see the role of CIA leadership more clearly.

 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Edit:  we need to move this to another thread MIKE...

Roger as well - Post on the Rufus Taylor thread please.

10 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Your military vs CIA juxtaposition is wanting, David.

btw - I though members had to post bios?

Can these posts be moved Sandy?

[Roger Odisio]

5 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Roger as well - Post on the Rufus Taylor thread please.

btw - I though members had to post bios?

Can these posts be moved Sandy?

What are you talking about, David?  My post is directly on topic:  RFK jr says the CIA killed JFK.

[David Josephs]

18 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

What are you talking about, David?  My post is directly on topic:  RFK jr says the CIA killed JFK.

Trying to be respectful to those who asked.  The thread is about RFK Jr.

The Rufus thread explores the theme of my posting in response to his use of "CIA" and I'd rather we discuss it there.

I will not address my theories about this here anymore.   I already copy pasted your post there...

It's not up for discussion.  thanks in advance for understanding.. talk to you there if you'd like

[James DiEugenio]

David, if that is what you meant, then I take back what I said.

 

Man, Bobby Kennedy is really being gutsy with those posts.

I worry about his health. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

David, if that is what you meant, then I take back what I said.

 

Man, Bobby Kennedy is really being gutsy with those posts.

I worry about his health. 

JD-

I think the day of the intel-state assassinating US leaders has passed (I hope). 

But RFK Jr and Trump will receive debilitating media treatment, in spades. 

A Niagara of feculent invective. 

The globalist neo-lib and neo-con DC establishment is backing Biden, their man in Washington. All in for the duration. 

I hop RFK Jr. prevails, but every smear possible will be targeted. 

[David Josephs]

I read then reread your post.

I respectfully decline to engage in such nonsense as in the past it has gotten me banned.

By all means, present your arguments and answer your own questions -  Maybe others here with a much greater level of tact and patience will take the time to reply.   

As to "MY" model, the Evica model is from a JFK scholar much more well-versed than I, which I have used to better understand and explain the JFKA.  I am not looking to improve on that model to make it tautological and redundant as you suggest.  https://kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Evica/Perfect_cover.html 

And I'll ask again - moderators, I thought each member was required to provide a biography, or has that gone away now with the influx of new members?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/facilitator

someone who helps a person or organization do something more easily or find the answer to a problem, by discussing things and suggesting ways of doing things

A facilitator plans, guides and manages a group event to meet its goals

[Roger Odisio]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

DJ: Trying to be respectful to those who asked.  The thread is about RFK Jr.

RO:  No, the thread is about Jr's claim that the CIA murdered his uncle. It's in the title.  Which you disparaged in several ways.  I disagreed with you.  You've offered no response

DJ:  The Rufus thread explores the theme of my posting in response to his use of "CIA" and I'd rather we discuss it there.

I will not address my theories about this here anymore.   I already copy pasted your post there...

It's not up for discussion. 

RO:  David, you don't get to decide what is "up for discussion".

 

[James DiEugenio]

BC: I think the day of the intel-state assassinating US leaders has passed (I hope). 

 

Let us keep our fingers crossed.

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Gee, how appropriate is the above after hitting the "quote" button.