The three tramps mystery

[Leslie Sharp]

5 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

If we can believe Chambers.

Understood... that's why I said No to #2, I didn't see how one would affect the other.

So. Don't these official records insist that DPD writ large was following a semblance of protocol and the majority were completely ignorant they were being played? Those directly involved or at best knowledgable were among a tight cadre being managed by someone outside the department. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[David Josephs]

Just now, Leslie Sharp said:

So. Don't these official records insist that DPD was following a semblance of protocol and that some, if not the majority, were completely ignorant they were being played? Those directly involved or at best knowledgable were among a tight cadre being managed by someone outside the department. 

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp.

The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say...  letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing.  It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands.

On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one.  I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one.

But why so overtly parade them?
Was there any other news coverage of these men?  If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted.

If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed?

Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when?

Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

 

[Leslie Sharp]

23 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Holt says he owned the University Bank of Fullerton which served as a conduit for CIA funds. Twombly also worked as Executive VP for Caribbean Operations of Coca Cola. 

Let me check spelling.  I knew an attorney in Dallas the mid-'70s who served as general counsel to the Turtle Creek Travel agency that handled the national accounts of the petroleum engineers and geologists.  It sounds like mere dot connecting, but I for one turn every stone.

Fullerton CA presumably? 

The Dallas Twombly family is directly related to the Vanderbilts a.k.a. Whitney and Freeport Sulphur.  I'm sure we can identify at least three degrees of separation from Caribbean Ops of Coca Cola! 🙂

[Leslie Sharp]

4 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp.

The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say...  letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing.  It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands.

On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one.  I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one.

But why so overtly parade them?
Was there any other news coverage of these men?  If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted.

If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed?

Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when?

Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

 

You're speaking of the 488th, which by some accounts was merely nominal; however, it was credible enough to have been one of the two Texas MI units invited to train at the Pentagon in summer of 1963.  The other dozen or more units were training in far less interesting locations.

If we are to accept that Col. Jack Crichton and Col. Frank "Brandy" Brandstetter were leading figures in the 488th — and most agree Crichton established the unit himself, with the mandate of protecting interests of the petroleum industry per sé — then we have at least two prime candidates for managing (from some distance) diversions like the tramps that involved DPD.

[Leslie Sharp]

11 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp.

The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say...  letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing.  It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands.

On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one.  I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one.

But why so overtly parade them?
Was there any other news coverage of these men?  If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted.

If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed?

Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when?

Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

 

David, we also have Col. Sam Kail.  I hope @Robert Montenegro is following this thread because he has identified documents to support the significance of Kail appearing in private records that also name Cols. Crichton and Brandstetter as well as "de Mohrenschildt" and Col. Lawrence Orlov - both known to have "known" Lee Oswald btw.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

17 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

If they haven't been released and are not in that database... how can there be meta data related to it and where in the database would that be so BARD could have found it?  I know quite a bit about databases but not anywhere near that regarding meta tags and how SEARCH finds them.

Thanks

I am a developer, what would happen is the unreleased files are digitized, but they are flagged not to show on the website. In the database, you have a table with the complete list of documents that have been digitized with its metadata.  The actual files are stored in storage on their private cloud and the database row has a link to the actual file.   
 

Bard maybe connecting to the publicly accessible database and getting all this information.  The actual file is probably in a secure environment that is not accessible from the outside.

to me, this is either intentional by the archive or there is a serious gap in security.

the other possibility is that Barb is hallucinating, which I doubt but it is possible.

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

David, we also have Col. Sam Kail.  I hope @Robert Montenegro is following this thread because he has identified documents to support the significance of Kail appearing in private records that also name Cols. Crichton and Brandstetter as well as "de Mohrenschildt" and Col. Lawrence Orlov - both known to have "known" Lee Oswald btw.

Yes yes... I am aware of those names along with Whitmeyer.  I do believe @Steve Thomas did an amazing job identifying these men and the Lt Colonels...

I hope Robert is here too. Those are important documents

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

I am a developer, what would happen is the unreleased files are digitized, but they are flagged not to show on the website. In the database, you have a table with the complete list of documents that have been digitized with its metadata.  The actual files are stored in storage on their private cloud and the database row has a link to the actual file.   
 

Bard maybe connecting to the publicly accessible database and getting all this information.  The actual file is probably in a secure environment that is not accessible from the outside.

to me, this is either intentional by the archive or there is a serious gap in security.

the other possibility is that Barb is hallucinating, which I doubt but it is possible.

Even though the file numbers are incorrect?  There is not a single document with a 104-10500 prefix.

Are you able to get at this data by using page source views... or any other way?

Thanks for the great answer btw... the breadth of backgrounds here is so impressive... Each adding their own specialities to the mix.  I'm immediately reminded of David Healy... (who is not in the members list anymore? - I hope he's ok)

Cheers

DJ

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

6 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Even though the file numbers are incorrect?  There is not a single document with a 104-10500 prefix.

Are you able to get at this data by using page source views... or any other way?

Thanks for the great answer btw... the breadth of backgrounds here is so impressive... Each adding their own specialities to the mix.  I'm immediately reminded of David Healy... (who is not in the members list anymore? - I hope he's ok)

Cheers

DJ

Are you able to get at this data by using page source views... or any other way? No.  The page source would be in HTML and depending on how the output of the page is served, the meta data is in there.

What I think is occurring, barb connects to the database directly if it is publicly accessible or by an API that the archive may offer the tech giants like Google and Microsoft.  This way Google can scan the database and cache it on their servers or access it without disturbing website access.

Try it yourself: bard.google.com

Then type: Can you search the JFK archive for Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, or John Gedney - https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk

 

[David Josephs]

9 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

What I think is occurring, barb connects to the database directly if it is publicly accessible or by an API that the archive may offer the tech giants like Google and Microsoft.  This way Google can scan the database and cache it on their servers or access it without disturbing website access.

Incredibly interesting Keyvan, thanks.

When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word?  And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with?  I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words?

Thanks.

edit:  all the files are pdfs.  Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?

Edited July 15, 2023 by David Josephs

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

3 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Incredibly interesting Keyvan, thanks.

When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word?  And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with?  I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words?

Thanks.

edit:  all the files are pdfs.  Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?

When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word? I think what you are asking is if the documents that are scanned by the archivist are OCR'd (Optical Characted Recognition). The archive would do this, not the search engines.  XML if a format that parses data into fields.   In this case, the images would be scanned and the ocr data from the images extracted.  If would not be put in XML format unless they are using AI to scan the documents, which I don't think they are.

And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with? Probably the best thing to do is define what meta data is, think of it as data about data.  Since the database is being scanned and when information about the tramps match a search, the information in the row is considered meta data, since it is information about the document that it represents.  What the AI would do in this instance, is get the words that match, i.e. Tramps, Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, John Gedney and it would also read any other words in the meta data, and using Natural Language Understanding, figure out what the document is about.  The meta data would be generated from the scanned document or from an archivist.

I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words? I think what you are stating is that the meta data in the database derives from an image that was scanned and OCR'd.  I think that you maybe correct, the documents were scanned and data from those documents made it to the database.  Another possibility is that the archivists are looking at the documents and entering the meta-data to the database.  Since it is a large amount of files, I would think that you are correct for the sake of getting this information into the database.

[Paul Cummings]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Let me check spelling.  I knew an attorney in Dallas the mid-'70s who served as general counsel to the Turtle Creek Travel agency that handled the national accounts of the petroleum engineers and geologists.  It sounds like mere dot connecting, but I for one turn every stone.

Fullerton CA presumably? 

The Dallas Twombly family is directly related to the Vanderbilts a.k.a. Whitney and Freeport Sulphur.  I'm sure we can identify at least three degrees of separation from Caribbean Ops of Coca Cola! 🙂

Yes. Apparently he had numerous relationships with other banks including Bank of America.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

42 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Incredibly interesting Keyvan, thanks.

When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word?  And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with?  I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words?

Thanks.

edit:  all the files are pdfs.  Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?

edit:  all the files are pdfs.  Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?  PDF stands for portable document format, what it does is arrange information in a format.  It also has a layer for meta data.  Most PDF files are ocr'd when the files is created.  The documents in the archive that are in the pdf files are actual images.  They would need to be ocr'd to get the text layer. I believe that the pdf files in the archive are ocr'd.  It is just another thing that has to be done, I don't see it as any harder, just additional step.

[Leslie Sharp]

1 hour ago, Paul Cummings said:

Yes. Apparently he had numerous relationships with other banks including Bank of America.

Hopefully the following won't be construed as an attempted diversion a-la "the tramps in Dealey", but it might (or might not) help to flesh out candidates for who ran the Tramp Diversion — considering your candidate Twombly specifically. (hope you'll indulge the personal anecdotes but they're important to establishing context.)

Bruce Twombly was legal counsel to Professional Travel Service located on the 7th floor of Two Turtle Creek Village in the mid-'70s. PTS's primary clients were the national accounts for the American Society of Petroleum Engineers and the American Soceity of Petroleum Geologists.  The favored destination of both societies in the mid-'70s was the Canary Islands off the coast of Spain, possibly influenced by Fort Worth oilman Sid Richardson's established presence on one of the major islands since the late 1940s.  Arch Swank, architect for his Canary compound was married to Patsy Swank, stringer for LIFE Magazine and was the catalyst for Dick Stolley to secure the Z film on behalf of C.D. Jackson.

(Sid Richardson along with his relatives, the Bass's, was an infamous gambling buddy of oilman Clint Murchison, notorious for having been a benefactor for J. Edgar Hoover's annual trips to Del Mar — an interesting history in light of recent revelations that developer of the Dallas Trade Mart, Trammell Crow's son, Harlan, has been a similar benefactor for one of our Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas for years.)

Major Ralph Ganis reveals that the Skorzeny Papers indicate that Otto Skorzeny and Jean Rene Souetre traveled to the Canaries in 1962/1963.

Travel agency PTS hired contract travel agents to service their preferred clients: one was Eleanor Weber whose son Garry Weber would later serve on the founding board of the 6th Floor Museum; the other was Mitzi Calder, wife of independent oilman Bruce Calder who sublet the small office in the Republic National Bank building from his good friend George de Mohrenschildt.  On at least one occasion while I was employed as the assistant to the president of PTS, Bruce and George dropped in to pick Mitzi up for lunch.  I later discovered that our receptionist lived within a block of the de Mohrenschildts on Travis.

@Paul Cummings This circuitous route to your "Twombly" who you suspect as having "handled" Holt's role in the diversion is likely nothing other than a string of pure coincidence and totally unrelated to the tramps in Dealey. I trust it does, however, highlight the interconnectedness of the Dallas socio-political dynamics that ruled well into the 1970s and quite likely impacted the efforts of both the Church Committee and HSCA.

"oil smoothes the way for sudden and sometimes deadly change." — Rene Lafitte



 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Paul Cummings]

2 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Hopefully the following won't be construed as an attempted diversion a-la "the tramps in Dealey", but it might (or might not) help to flesh out candidates for who ran the Tramp Diversion — considering your candidate Twombly specifically. (hope you'll indulge the personal anecdotes but they're important to establishing context.)

Bruce Twombly was legal counsel to Professional Travel Service located on the 7th floor of Two Turtle Creek Village in the mid-'70s. PTS's primary clients were the national accounts for the American Society of Petroleum Engineers and the American Soceity of Petroleum Geologists.  The favored destination of both societies in the mid-'70s was the Canary Islands off the coast of Spain, possibly influenced by Fort Worth oilman Sid Richardson's established presence on one of the major islands since the late 1940s.  Arch Swank, architect for his Canary compound was married to Patsy Swank, stringer for LIFE Magazine and was the catalyst for Dick Stolley to secure the Z film on behalf of C.D. Jackson.

(Sid Richardson along with his relatives, the Bass's, was an infamous gambling buddy of oilman Clint Murchison, notorious for having been a benefactor for J. Edgar Hoover's annual trips to Del Mar — an interesting history in light of recent revelations that developer of the Dallas Trade Mart, Trammell Crow's son, Harlan, has been a similar benefactor for one of our Supreme Court Justices, Clarence Thomas for years.)

Major Ralph Ganis reveals that the Skorzeny Papers indicate that Otto Skorzeny and Jean Rene Souetre traveled to the Canaries in 1962/1963.

Travel agency PTS hired contract travel agents to service their preferred clients: one was Eleanor Weber whose son Garry Weber would later serve on the founding board of the 6th Floor Museum; the other was Mitzi Calder, wife of independent oilman Bruce Calder who sublet the small office in the Republic National Bank building from his good friend George de Mohrenschildt.  On at least one occasion while I was employed as the assistant to the president of PTS, Bruce and George dropped in to pick Mitzi up for lunch.  I later discovered that our receptionist lived within a block of the de Mohrenschildts on Travis.

@Paul Cummings This circuitous route to your "Twombly" who you suspect as having "handled" Holt's role in the diversion is likely nothing other than a string of pure coincidence and totally unrelated to the tramps in Dealey. I trust it does, however, highlight the interconnectedness of the Dallas socio-political dynamics that ruled well into the 1970s and quite likely impacted the efforts of both the Church Committee and HSCA.

"oil smoothes the way for sudden and sometimes deadly change." — Rene Lafitte



 

 

 

Phillip Twombly not Bruce. Yes, it does appear you've hijacked this thread.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Paul Cummings