Edwin Lopez: Oswald never visited embassies in Mexico City

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/17/2023 at 2:57 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

If I follow you correctly (a big "if"), then the plotters impersonated Nikolai Leonov pretending to be our "Oswald".

 

That's pretty close. The CIA plotters wanted those inside the consulates to believe that the Oswald impersonator was the real Oswald. But they wanted the post-assassination FBI to believe he was Nikolai Leonov.... in cahoots with Oswald to kill Kennedy.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 2:57 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

But the FBI saw through the ruse.

 

Well, yes. But only by accident. What the CIA plotters didn't plan on was Sylvia Duran being arrested by the Mexican police. She told her interrogators that she was assisting Lee Harvry Oswald in getting a visa. This info made it's way back to the FBI before they even had a chance to investigate. So, just like the consulate employees, they thought that the Oswald impersonator was Oswald.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 2:57 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

How did the FBI know for sure that Nikolai Leonov had not actually pretended to be "Oswald"?

 

I'm not sure why the FBI might consider that possibility. Makes little sense to me.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

how could [Leonov] possibly speak lousy Russian?

 

Jim,

If you are referring to to the intercepted phone call spoken in broken Russian....

I just assume that the calls were made by the CIA crew who were there to plant evidence (e.g. hotel registration) and to provide the Oswald impersonator. I don't assume that the Oswald impersonator made any calls.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

43 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Was Leonov 5' 5"?

 

David said above he was 5" 7".

 

[David Josephs]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What the CIA plotters didn't plan on was Sylvia Duran being arrested by the Mexican police.

I'm pretty sure it was the CIA who called the shots and had DURAN arrested.

"MEXI  SUGGESTING TO [ ...] THAT SYLVIA DURAN.... BE ARRESTED IMMEDIATELY"

[James DiEugenio]

Echeverria did the arrest?  I did not know that.

I thought the CIA turned it all over to him later.

So Echeverria and Ochoa were in on it from almost the start.

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Paul,

I'm pretty sure there's a mistake in your identification of the Oswald impersonator.

Which of these two men is the Oswald impersonator? I've always thought it is the one on the left, Nikolai Leonov. Because every time I got a new clue from something Sylvia Duran or Eusebio Azcue said about their Oswald, it always better matched Leonov than the other guy.

I just did a quick search in my files and found the following statement made by Eusebio Azcue in 1978:

"The person in the film [of the real Oswald in the news) was younger and with a pudgier face compared to the hard, lines and older face of the person who requested the visa [at the Cuban Consulate in 1963]."  (Source)

Azcue cannot possibly be referring to the broad-faced guy we see above.

Therefore Nikolai Leonov is the Oswald impersonator.

 

Sandy,

The Cuban Consulate and the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City in 1963 were two separate buildings, both on Francisco Marquez Street. The CIA's surveillance post at 149 Francisco Marquez was across the street from both buildings. A CIA asset manning the 3rd floor apartment could manually photograph every visitor to the embassy, and a pulse camera could cover the consulate.

History Matters Archive - 2003 Release: Oswald, the CIA, and Mexico City ("Lopez Report"), pg (history-matters.com)

The blond, pudgy-faced man was photographed outside the Cuban Embassy (not the Cuban Consulate) on Thursday, September 26. This man, according to numerous sources, was very angry and red-faced when he was told by officials at the Cuban Embassy that he could not get a visa to Cuba there. He then was directed to the Cuban Consulate down the block. On his way out, he loudly (and provocatively) threatened to "shoot Kennedy for this."

This man identified himself as "Lee Oswald." (Of course, he was not our man at all.)

Fidel Castro himself heard all about this incident from Cuban Embassy officials immediately after the assassination. Castro himself told FBI source Jack Childs (Solo) that this was highly suspicious ("Nobody ever goes that way for a visa.")

Commission Document 1359 - FBI Letter from Director of 17 Jun 1964 re: Castro Statements (maryferrell.org)

I agree.

This pudgy-faced, blond man was a provocateur. His "performance" though, may have been too over the top. His superiors seemingly chose a different man to approach the consulate. (And notice that they waited a day, probably to minimize the chance that consulate personnel and embassy personnel would realize that a different man was now "Oswald.")

 

However, the now infamous (apparent) ruckus between the (new?) mystery man and Azcue/Duran occurred at the Cuban Consulate on Friday, September 27.

I don't believe the same man visited both the Cuban consulate and embassy.  This visitor to the consulate was NOT photographed, allegedly. 

Whoever this (new?) man/intelligence asset was, he was far less provocative and did NOT threaten (or even mention) President Kennedy. 

Memorable? Well, sort of. But not so much that either Duran or Azcue would drop everything and react.

The CIA at first tried to blur and conflate these two incidents, and then, once it was decided that our "Oswald" (aboard the mythical bus trip) could NOT have been in Mexico City by the 26th, dropped the embassy incident. 

But Castro heard about it, and so did the FBI, and so did the Warren Commission, and now, ultimately, so have we.

Two separate provocations, one at the Cuban Embassy, one at the Cuban Consulate, one on the 26th and one on the 27th.

The CIA (as late as 1978) was muddying the waters by getting Nikolai Leonov's image in with the blond, pudgy-faced man who visited the embassy on the 26th. 

There is no evidence that Nikolai Leonov ever posed as our "Oswald", but I think it's certain that the CIA wanted the FBI and any other investigators to think that he did. 

 

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Paul has become on of our most valuable commentators on the mystery of Mexico City.👋

[Paul Jolliffe]

Here's something else:

The CIA's 1963 file on Nikolai Leonov (of course they knew who he was in 1978!) mentions that Leonov had "been a TARBRUSH target three times, but in two instances, the articles are not in the files . . . "

Two of these CIA operations against Leonov were in 1963. 

BIOGRAPHIC DATA: LEONOV, NIKOLAI SERGEYEVICH (maryferrell.org)

I am certain that the CIA included the two photographs of him outside the Soviet Embassy on October 2, 1963, as part of its "mystery man" investigation to incriminate him as an "Oswald" imposter. This would have been the third CIA operation in 1963 against Leonov, specifically, and would have right in keeping with the first two. 

I believe that by mixing in Leonov's image with that of the first blond man, the CIA was trying to hide the identity of the blond "Oswald" imposter's visit to the Cuban Embassy (not the Cuban Consulate) on Thursday, September 26, 1963. 

[Pamela Brown]

On 8/18/2023 at 2:43 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

(Note: I disagree with Pamela's "explosive" characterization of Oswald's response. Hosty's interpretation of it was "agitated.")

 

Pamela,

The following exchange occurred before it was pointed out to Hosty that some of his testimony contradicted what he had told the WC. As I posted earlier, this is when they dropped the subject of Mexico City after Oswald asked Hosty how he knew about it.

Mr. Wallach. Do you recall what Oswald's answer was when he did calm down to the question of what he had been doing in Mexico City?

Mr. Hosty. He never answered it.

Mr. Wallach. He never answered it?

Mr. Hosty. No, sir.

Mr. Wallach. So he did not tell the interrogators whether or not he had been in Mexico City?

Mr. Hosty. Right.

Mr. Epstein. After you mentioned Mexico City to the police captain and he challenged you, and you said you didn't respond--

Mr. Hosty. I did not respond.

Mr. Epstein. He did not. And you did not respond?

Mr. Hosty. He asked me how I knew, and I did not respond.

Mr. Epstein. What happened then?

Mr. Hosty. Captain Fritz went on to another question.

 

Source:  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1406#relPageId=29    (Page 30. Pages 25 to 37 have the full exchange.)

 

I'll stick to 'explosive' for now...

BTW, here is a definition of 'agitated'...

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/agitated

Mr, Hosty did not 'drop the subject'.  It is my understanding that Lee refused to answer any more of Hosty's questions after he asked Lee about Mexico City...

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:20 AM, David Josephs said:

I'm pretty sure it was the CIA who called the shots and had DURAN arrested.

 

David,

As I said in my conspiracy theory above, the CIA plotters intended for the FBI to conclude after the assassination that it was the short, blond, Nikolai Leonov who was entering the Cuban consulate. But the person inside was really a short, blond, CIA asset who told Duran he was Oswald and wanted to get a Cuban transit visa. The plotters purpose for this was to link Leonov to the "conspiracy" they were fabricating.

You say that it was the CIA who had Duran arrested by the Mexican police. Well yeah, sort of. It was Win Scott who got her arrested. Win Scott was not one of the CIA plotters. And in fact, Scott got into trouble with his superiors for getting Duran arrested.

So anyway, the FBI became aware early on that it was Oswald that had been inside talking to Duran. I don't know how long it took for them to realize that this Oswald was actually a blond impersonator.

 

[James DiEugenio]

According to the work of Betsy Wolf for the HSCA, the CIA alerted Echeverria to Duran's importance and escorted Elena Garro de Paz to a secure hotel location within 24 hours of the assassination. 

That information did not come out until Wolf's notes were finally declassified in the new  millenium. And it was Malcolm Blunt who sent them to me.

Coincidence? Nope, it is called controlling both ends of the argument.  In advance.

Edited August 21, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Brancato]

Sandy et al - what do we know about Win Scott prior to his coming to MC?

[Pete Mellor]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Sandy et al - what do we know about Win Scott prior to his coming to MC?

Scott joined the FBI in March 1941. Originally assigned to the Cryptography division, he asked to become a Special Agent. He was sent to spy on the German population in Pittsburgh, and in February 1943 loaned to the US Embassy in Cuba. After returning to Washington, D.C. he was recruited by the Office of Strategic Services and assigned to London, where he became head of the Germany section of X-2 (OSS' Counter Espionage Branch).

After the end of World War II Scott remained stationed in London, becoming the CIA's first London station chief in 1947. In 1950 he became head of the Western European division of the Office of Special Operations, overseeing espionage throughout Western Europe.

In 1955 Scott asked for a transfer to Mexico City, and took office as station chief there in August 1956.

[Paul Brancato]

38 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Scott joined the FBI in March 1941. Originally assigned to the Cryptography division, he asked to become a Special Agent. He was sent to spy on the German population in Pittsburgh, and in February 1943 loaned to the US Embassy in Cuba. After returning to Washington, D.C. he was recruited by the Office of Strategic Services and assigned to London, where he became head of the Germany section of X-2 (OSS' Counter Espionage Branch).

After the end of World War II Scott remained stationed in London, becoming the CIA's first London station chief in 1947. In 1950 he became head of the Western European division of the Office of Special Operations, overseeing espionage throughout Western Europe.

In 1955 Scott asked for a transfer to Mexico City, and took office as station chief there in August 1956.

Thank you Pete. It’s his European sojourn I’m most curious about. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

As I said in my conspiracy theory above, the CIA plotters intended for the FBI to conclude after the assassination that it was the short, blond, Nikolai Leonov who was entering the Cuban consulate. But the person inside was really a short, blond, CIA asset who told Duran he was Oswald and wanted to get a Cuban transit visa. The plotters purpose for this was to link Leonov to the "conspiracy" they were fabricating.

You say that it was the CIA who had Duran arrested by the Mexican police. Well yeah, sort of. It was Win Scott who got her arrested. Win Scott was not one of the CIA plotters. And in fact, Scott got into trouble with his superiors for getting Duran arrested.

So anyway, the FBI became aware early on that it was Oswald that had been inside talking to Duran. I don't know how long it took for them to realize that this Oswald was actually a blond impersonator.

 

Sandy,

I agree with you that the CIA plotters wanted to fool the FBI into believing that the short, blond "Oswald" visitor to the Cuban Embassy on the 26th and the Cuban Consulate on the 27th was an imposter (he was!) AND that this imposter was Nikolai Leonov (of course, it wasn't!)

You and I agree that the "Oswald" imposter at the Cuban Consulate on the 27th was unlikely to be the same blond, pudgy-faced man photographed outside the Cuban Embassy on the 26th.

Note that the FBI was told in January of 1964 (by an informant who had spoken with Elizabeth Mora) that the first person with whom the blond "Oswald" imposter came in contact at the Cuban Embassy was Teresa Proenza:

124-10003-10386 (maryferrell.org)

Now what is fascinating is that this same Teresa Proenza was a protege of the "Cuban Vice Minister of Defense, a highly placed and extreme Moscow-line Communist. He was so high up he was part of the planning in Moscow in the spring of 1962 to put missiles into Cuba later that fall.

This man was the target of a CIA operation. The CIA wanted to create suspicion within the Cuban government that this Vice Minister of Defense was actually a stooge for the CIA (he wasn't, but the CIA wanted the Cubans to think so). The CIA wanted to create a rift between the Soviets and Cubans and within the Castro government itself over this man.

This CIA operation began in April of 1963 and involved the creation of forged documents to make it appear the Vice Minister was a CIA informant - that he had ratted out the missile build-up in 1962 to the Americans. (Again, he had not, but the documents falsely implied he had.) The Cubans paid for this material, but they made no move against the Vice Minister - no action was taken against him. The CIA operation to discredit this Vice Minister was not working.

So, on November 15, 1963, the CIA tried again with a new set of fake documents. This time, they included the tidbit that there was a second CIA plant in the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City: Teresa Proenza.

Not long after the assassination, Proenza was informed she would be unexpectedlyrecalled to Havana (as indeed she was in January of 1964.)

The Cuban government began to take the (fake) documents seriously - the CIA operation was finally bearing fruit.

In the spring of 1964, another protege of the Vice Minister was tried and convicted on charges of betraying leaders of the resistance movement to the Batista regime. 

Finally, in November of 1964, the Vice Minister and his wife (also a Cabinet member) and Teresa Proenza herself were all tried, convicted and imprisoned on treason charges.

After serving prison terms, they were eventually released.

The CIA operation had been a slow developing, but stunning success. 

So, what's the point of all this?

Simple - the very first person who the blond "Oswald" imposter approached on September 26 at the Cuban Embassy was herself soon a target of an expanded sophisticated CIA operation to create a rift within the Cuban government.

That's not a coincidence.

David Josephs has written that the Mexico City episode was a giant FUBAR and I agree.

There were multiple operations going on down there at the same time, all of them aimed at or interconnected with the Cuban diplomatic mission, and they involved a blond "Oswald" imposter.

104-10145-10381.pdf (archives.gov)