Edwin Lopez: Oswald never visited embassies in Mexico City

[David Josephs]

7 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

In another place the report acknowledges that Lee himself must have come to the Cuban embassy at least once because he filled out and signed a visa with a signature consistent with his handwriting

@James DiEugenio

Much like the cards in Helsinki, the signatures, while "consistent" with his handwriting, these two items are supposedly signed within seconds of each other.

CORNWELL - Was he required to sign the application?
TIRADO - He sighned it, yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign one or both of them?
TIRADO - I think both, it has to be.
CORNWELL - Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in any particular person's presence? Anyone have to watch him while he signed it?
TIRADO - I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.
CORNWELL - As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch people sign the applications?
TIRADO - No. He was in his office.
CORNWELL - So you could handle that all by yourself.
TIRADO - yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign it in your presence?
TIRADO - Yes.

 

 

I've always liked to line CC docs up to see what was going on...  The Application on the left is also supposed to show staples in the photo holding it to that copy as you can see the staples at top and bottom of photo on the right.  The white image is the reversal of the left application.

Azcue claims the same man had come in previous to his application date by 1-2 days... which again conflicts with when Oswald would have been there based on the FBI bus trip.

 

The WC decides not to show DURAN a copy of this application.  She does not see it until 1978.  And both Azcue and Sylvia tell us the man was not the same as the one they encountered.

 

 

CORNWELL - Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three visits occurred?
TIRADO - No, I saw the application. You showed me the other day, and in the Warren Commission was September 27, but I didn't remember, of course, until I read it.
CORNWELL - All right. Do you have a recollection whether it was all on one day or on separate days.
TIRADO - The same day.

 

The above application was not in the WCR as far as I can see but was only introduced for the HSCA.  The provenance of the photos, where else they appear, what Marina said about them... are all suspect.  One wonders where the WC gets a larger, clearer UNSTAPLED version of the stapled to the application IDENTICAL version.  The 4 photos we have are terrible and not all the same by any means.

 

The below is from 104-10413-10268 the September LIENVOY Summary report where anything of significant interest is mentioned.  This report left MX Oct 8th and is signed by Scott.  Not a single mention of OSWALD or an American thru Oct 1st on that contemporaneously written summary report sent at the same time / same day as documents are sent stating Oswald was picked up on tape Sept 27, 28 and Oct 1st.

Even more damning is that during that exact time period a report was to be written about the effectiveness of these two programs... both of which completely missing the 27th and 28th communications while specifically monitoring them.

I am willing to say Oswald was in and out of MX at the LUNA - possibly.  But our man was elsewhere when the events at the 2 compounds were either staged or completely fabricated or a combination thereof.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Also, the FBI checked every passport photo shop in about a three mile radius

 

No one recalled Oswald.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

@Pamela Brown @Benjamin Cole

it seems as though they were incapable of coming completely to grips with the mystery that is Lee Oswald and Mexico City

Or... they fully understood what was to be done related to Mexico City and did it by repeatedly claiming he went despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Based on what they were told - this was their terrible conclusion.. So I reinvestigated it.

As I've said, if Oswald was at the LUNA during that time, his presence there was not acknowledged in the official docs - while these same official docs were stolen and manipulated by MX FBI assets.

"investigative assistance in the OSWALD case"

ECHEVERRIA WAS CIA, OCHIA FBI.

 

       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DJ--excellent doc work on your part. Truly top-notch. 

I have long suspected LHO received CIA (or other US intel agency)-arranged transportation to and from Mexico City. Possibly by Piper Cub or other small civilian craft. 

We do have the filmed, recorded statement of the three KGB officers that they met the real LHO at the Soviet Embassy. That is hard to simply dismiss. (PBS, Frontline 1993)

We have the Nosenko statement as well.

LHO was also rather obviously impersonated while in MC. 

So why no photos of LHO in MC? Perhaps they were destroyed immediately on Nov. 22, as part of CIA-wide rush move to destroy any and all evidence revealing LHO as a CIA asset. Maybe LHO knew where the cameras were and hid his face while entering the buildings.

This pose would reveal that LHO knew about the cameras, and how would he? 

If there was ever any documentation of what I suspect---that LHO was couriered to MC and back---it seems likely it was destroyed on Nov. 22. 

The purpose of the arranged LHO-Kostikov meeting was to build the LHO legend-biography as a loser-loner-lefty, for a then-pending false flag op. 

I am not sure why LHO was impersonated in MC. Maybe that was part of the "Spy v. Spy" games of creating confusion and shadows that go nowhere. 

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Ben:

We have the actual photo check by the CIA today.  It was declassified by the ARRB.

No picture of Oswald.

And there is no way LHO could have avoided every camera at the Cuban embassy.

The whole first part of the Lopez Report is devoted to the camera coverage. That was the part that was so heavily censored by the CIA.  Because it was so convincing that if LHO has been at the Cuban embassy, the CIA could not have missed photographing him.

BTW, you know how sensitive CIA was about this?  They would not give out the names of the camera operators.  So when Lopez served as a translator for a meeting with Castro, he told Fidel about this problem.  Castro said, "Oh we know who those guys are. " And he turned Eddie over to the intel guy with him and he gave him their names.

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DJ--excellent doc work on your part. Truly top-notch. 

I have long suspected LHO received CIA (or other US intel agency)-arranged transportation to and from Mexico City. Possibly by Piper Cub or other small civilian craft. 

We do have the filmed, recorded statement of the three KGB officers that they met the real LHO at the Soviet Embassy. That is hard to simply dismiss. (PBS, Frontline 1993)

We have the Nosenko statement as well.

LHO was also rather obviously impersonated while in MC. 

So why no photos of LHO in MC? Perhaps they were destroyed immediately on Nov. 22, as part of CIA-wide rush move to destroy any and all evidence revealing LHO as a CIA asset. Maybe LHO knew where the cameras were and hid his face while entering the buildings.

This pose would reveal that LHO knew about the cameras, and how would he? 

If there was ever any documentation of what I suspect---that LHO was couriered to MC and back---it seems likely it was destroyed on Nov. 22. 

The purpose of the arranged LHO-Kostikov meeting was to build the LHO legend-biography as a loser-loner-lefty, for a then-pending false flag op. 

I am not sure why LHO was impersonated in MC. Maybe that was part of the "Spy v. Spy" games of creating confusion and shadows that go nowhere. 

 

 

 

A Piper Cub from New Orleans to Mexico City?  That would have been a dedicated flight as it's a two seater requiring multiple stops for refueling as its range was 220 miles.  My mom bought my dad a surplus one with her life savings at the time as a wedding gift in 1948.  I still have pictures of it chained to a fence post in Irving Texas.

[Benjamin Cole]

9 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

A Piper Cub from New Orleans to Mexico City?  That would have been a dedicated flight as it's a two seater requiring multiple stops for refueling as its range was 220 miles.  My mom bought my dad a surplus one with her life savings at the time as a wedding gift in 1948.  I still have pictures of it chained to a fence post in Irving Texas.

Good point Ron. Never having owned a plane (and my "yacht," was a raft) so I am out of my element here. 

Looks like 700 miles, give or take, from a border-region US airfield to MC (or near MC for car-ride in). 

I have no idea if there are small private airfields en route.  

Are there other small civilian craft with better range? 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ben:

We have the actual photo check by the CIA today.  It was declassified by the ARRB.

No picture of Oswald.

And there is no way LHO could have avoided every camera at the Cuban embassy.

The whole first part of the Lopez Report is devoted to the camera coverage. That was the part that was so heavily censored by the CIA.  Because it was so convincing that if LHO has been at the Cuban embassy, the CIA could not have missed photographing him.

BTW, you know how sensitive CIA was about this?  They would not give out the names of the camera operators.  So when Lopez served as a translator for a meeting with Castro, he told Fidel about this problem.  Castro said, "Oh we know who those guys are. " And he turned Eddie over to the intel guy with him and he gave him their names.

JD-

Well, what I am positing as possible is that if the CIA had photos of the LHO at the Cuban Embassy or the Soviet Embassy, they likely destroyed them on 11/22. If there were contemporary photo checks or other documentation, they were altered. 

That is, in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA, the CIA destroyed any evidence it had been running LHO as an asset. Having a lot of photos of LHO, and LHO impersonators, on file sure would not look good. 

In addition, LHO could have shielded his face in MC, by a large hat, sun umbrella, sunglasses and so on. 

I read the Lopez Report, but we are also talking 1960s technology and bored humans taking pictures all day of nothing (evidently, the CIA was required to hire Mexican nationals to man some cameras). 

At bottom, we are still left with the three KGB officials, including Kostikov, unequivocally stating on the record, filmed and recorded, they met the real LHO in MC at the Embassy in 1963 (Frontline c. 1993), and then also the Nosenko file, in which Nosenko states the Russian Embassy noted LHO's visit to the Embassy, contemporaneously. 

I suspect the real story on LHO's visit to MC is even more incendiary, than the one he never went and then paperwork fabricated.  

LHO was somehow ushered down there, perhaps by plane or private car, and a meeting was arranged with Kostikov. This was the LHO biography build. Somehow the CIA baited Kostikov into the meeting---why else would Kostikov meet with LHO on a Saturday? And three officials no less, all KGB? 

My guess is the MC-Kostikov meeting confirms the CIA was running LHO, wittingly somewhat and perhaps unwittingly in part. 

PS I agree that PBS-Frontline is not trustworthy. What they should have asked Kostikov is, "Why did you met with LHO at all?"  "Were you informed he was a CIA asset?"  "Did you normally received tourists on Saturdays?" 

Maybe PBS-Frontline  just bribed the three KGB'ers to say they met the real LHO.  But, barring that....

Side note: There are accounts that the MC branch of CIA went bananas when LHO name and face was put on TV screens as the JFK assassin. 

Now, if LHO had never gone to MC, and the paperwork was fabricated thereafter...why would the MC/CIA go bananas in the immediate aftermath of the JFKA?

The reason hysteria set in because they knew they had been involved in an op that featured LHO....

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[David Josephs]

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So why no photos of LHO in MC?

Uh, because he was never at either facility.  

SLAWSON to COLEMAN about "fudging" the call contents.  1/4/64 Comments on First Draft Oswald in MX

The RIF is 179-40006-10049 yet is NOT online - was received from Blunt's photocopied docs direct from NARA.

The SLAWSON answer below goes to show how accepting of the CIA's transcripts as the "evidence Oswald was in Mexico" Slawson's "what's the point" comment is, to me, chilling.

SLAWSON CONTINUES:  Entire last paragraph...  "No contacts by Oswald" to go along with the 30 or so FBI assets also looking for any sign Oswald was there.  The Hotel Registry also comes from OCHOA

15 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The purpose of the arranged LHO-Kostikov meeting was to build the LHO legend-biography as a loser-loner-lefty, for a then-pending false flag op.

Never happened Ben.  Meeting Kostikov never happened and Kostikov never actually associated with Dept 13.  FBI memo at the bottom assumes the connection yet asks for any CIA corroboration. 

.

This is from Hoover to Helms/McCone - FBI has no info re Kostikov being Dept 13.

Kinda like blaming Oswald for Walker...  bogus info to add weight to the charges against him.

Here's Helms admitting that even their ruse didn't have the desired effect as Oswald was associated with YATSKOV and not Kostikov.  All part of the Oswald "legend" as a communist controlled killer.  (cough cough BS cough) with a couple more related docs.

[Pamela Brown]

22 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

David:

 

Please address Pam's issue with the visa, as you have done before.

A. FYI..."Pam" happens to be an alter-persona that was supposed to have been created through trauma based mind control.

My name is Pamela.

B. I was quoting from the Lopez report.  

[David Josephs]

Just now, Pamela Brown said:

B. I was quoting from the Lopez report.  

The problem is not with Lopez - but with the source of his information

[Pamela Brown]

18 hours ago, David Josephs said:

@James DiEugenio

Much like the cards in Helsinki, the signatures, while "consistent" with his handwriting, these two items are supposedly signed within seconds of each other.

CORNWELL - Was he required to sign the application?
TIRADO - He sighned it, yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign one or both of them?
TIRADO - I think both, it has to be.
CORNWELL - Was there any requirement in the Consulate that he do it in any particular person's presence? Anyone have to watch him while he signed it?
TIRADO - I don't know, I mean I just don't remember.
CORNWELL - As a hypothetical, did Azcue have to watch people sign the applications?
TIRADO - No. He was in his office.
CORNWELL - So you could handle that all by yourself.
TIRADO - yes.
CORNWELL - Did he sign it in your presence?
TIRADO - Yes.

 

 

I've always liked to line CC docs up to see what was going on...  The Application on the left is also supposed to show staples in the photo holding it to that copy as you can see the staples at top and bottom of photo on the right.  The white image is the reversal of the left application.

Azcue claims the same man had come in previous to his application date by 1-2 days... which again conflicts with when Oswald would have been there based on the FBI bus trip.

 

The WC decides not to show DURAN a copy of this application.  She does not see it until 1978.  And both Azcue and Sylvia tell us the man was not the same as the one they encountered.

 

 

CORNWELL - Do you remember the date or dates upon which those three visits occurred?
TIRADO - No, I saw the application. You showed me the other day, and in the Warren Commission was September 27, but I didn't remember, of course, until I read it.
CORNWELL - All right. Do you have a recollection whether it was all on one day or on separate days.
TIRADO - The same day.

 

The above application was not in the WCR as far as I can see but was only introduced for the HSCA.  The provenance of the photos, where else they appear, what Marina said about them... are all suspect.  One wonders where the WC gets a larger, clearer UNSTAPLED version of the stapled to the application IDENTICAL version.  The 4 photos we have are terrible and not all the same by any means.

 

The below is from 104-10413-10268 the September LIENVOY Summary report where anything of significant interest is mentioned.  This report left MX Oct 8th and is signed by Scott.  Not a single mention of OSWALD or an American thru Oct 1st on that contemporaneously written summary report sent at the same time / same day as documents are sent stating Oswald was picked up on tape Sept 27, 28 and Oct 1st.

Even more damning is that during that exact time period a report was to be written about the effectiveness of these two programs... both of which completely missing the 27th and 28th communications while specifically monitoring them.

I am willing to say Oswald was in and out of MX at the LUNA - possibly.  But our man was elsewhere when the events at the 2 compounds were either staged or completely fabricated or a combination thereof.

 

I was simply quoting the Lopez report.

[Pamela Brown]

1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

The problem is not with Lopez - but with the source of his information

Then are you saying we cannot trust the report?

[David Josephs]

12 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

Then are you saying we cannot trust the report?

That's what I'm saying Pamela.  All of the calls were intercepted within the Soviet compound supposedly called from Duran's phone.

Lee Harvey Oswald himself probably visited the Cuban Consulate at least once since his application for a Cuban instransit visa bears his signature .

An examination of the production from the electronic surveillance of the Cuban diplomatic compound's telephones failed to reveal any telephone conversation that directly mentioned Oswald or information that  clearly and directly referred to him.

Page 83 of Part 3 talks of Ms. Tarasoff's recollection of an "Oswald " call which does not appear anywhere:
Ms. Tarasoff testified that the transcript that she remembered was approximately two pages long.328  She testified that the caller identified himself as Lee Oswald.  She was certain that the 10/1/63 10:45 a.m. conversation was not the one that she recalled.

I'd suggest you also reread part 7: Analysis.

Everything in there is a discussion of the CIA offered information.  The FBI's work, OCHOA and untold aspects of the case were never investigated by LOPEZ nor any info offered up by the CIA tour guides.

There was no investigation of the journey, none of the actual evidence outside of that provided by CIA was examined.

All the report really does is bring to light questions that were never adequately addressed for which we now have much better answers.  

 

[Paul Brancato]

Mr. Josephs, and Jim D, have this right. 
Ben - you try to explain that the CIA might have gotten rid of pics of the real LHO to obscure their own role in a MC op. But his presence in MC visiting embassies was an essential part of their plan to se up a pro-Communist patsy. Seriously, by far the best explanation for the lack of photo evidence is that there never was any such evidence. 
I think Pat Speer came up with a nice middle position. The lack of photo evidences at the embassies means that he wasn’t there. But it doesn’t mean he wasn’t in MC doing something. That question, and his means of transportation if he was there, remains open. So it’s worth looking at separate evidence of his presence, as weird as some of it is, such as the twist party and observations of his presence along with so far unidentified other persons. I’m not saying I believe he was there, and there is reason to think some of this was fabricated also. But at least it’s an open question, whereas his presence at the embassies should be put to rest.

I read the report of the Russian operatives who say he was there. They sound very convincing, Ben, for sure. But they must have been fabricating the whole thing for other reasons, because there is no photo evidence, and that is crucial. No, it makes no sense that the CIA would destroy photo evidence, because it ran counter to their aims. If the Russians say otherwise, where is their proof? People can say anything.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Paul Brancato

[Pamela Brown]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

That's what I'm saying Pamela.  All of the calls were intercepted within the Soviet compound supposedly called from Duran's phone.

Lee Harvey Oswald himself probably visited the Cuban Consulate at least once since his application for a Cuban instransit visa bears his signature .

An examination of the production from the electronic surveillance of the Cuban diplomatic compound's telephones failed to reveal any telephone conversation that directly mentioned Oswald or information that  clearly and directly referred to him.

Page 83 of Part 3 talks of Ms. Tarasoff's recollection of an "Oswald " call which does not appear anywhere:
Ms. Tarasoff testified that the transcript that she remembered was approximately two pages long.328  She testified that the caller identified himself as Lee Oswald.  She was certain that the 10/1/63 10:45 a.m. conversation was not the one that she recalled.

I'd suggest you also reread part 7: Analysis.

Everything in there is a discussion of the CIA offered information.  The FBI's work, OCHOA and untold aspects of the case were never investigated by LOPEZ nor any info offered up by the CIA tour guides.

There was no investigation of the journey, none of the actual evidence outside of that provided by CIA was examined.

All the report really does is bring to light questions that were never adequately addressed for which we now have much better answers.  

 

I do agree that it looks as though the Lopez report cannot be treated as a credible source...

However, I am not at this point confident that they were intentionally clarifying issues, but possible just adding to the confusion that already exists...