Did the Plotters View RFK's Murder of Marilyn Monroe as Justification for Killing JFK?

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 

 

Love that song.

I never would have guessed that was Elton John in the video.

 

[Gerry Down]

21 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

genuine good guys like Mike Rothmiller and Mark Shaw.

Do you include Anthony Summers in that list? I think he believes RFK was in L.A. that day.

[Michael Griffith]

51 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

Do you include Anthony Summers in that list? I think he believes RFK was in L.A. that day.

Yes, Summers does believe that RFK was in LA that day. In fact, he says RFK was one of the last people to see her alive that day. However, he also believes her death was suicide or possibly accidental OD. As Mark Shaw notes, to make that conclusion seem more credible, Summers ignores the evidence that Marilyn was not suicidal that day, that her career was on the upswing again, and that her actions that day did not indicate an intention to commit suicide (e.g., she went shopping for new furniture). Dorothy Kilgallen knew her well and just a few days before Marilyn's death, Kilgallen saw no indication that she was suicidal--Kilgallen later said the whole story about Marilyn's death had not been told.

[Adam Johnson]

Interesting listening to Rothmiller and reading the Don McGovern piece...to me both takes on what really happened to MM have flaws.

The thing that stands out to me in all of this is...Rothmiller went into the LAPD OCID in 1977/78 and left in 1982/83. During those few years he mentions reading many files on important political and entertainment figures or people in LA who weilded some type of power/fame in a chosen field or political position.

At one point McGovern states the OCID had 55-60 detectives/officers...my question is how has Rothmiller not produced any former colleagues to testify they too saw files on high profile LA people of the 60's, 70's and 80's...Conversely how has someone like McGovern not produced any former OCID members to state they never saw any files on important LA high rollers of the 60's 70's and early 80's. If Rothmiller got access to such files early in his tenure at OCID, it would stand to reason other detectives  (his former colleagues) would have also.

Can anyone find out who were members of LAPD's OCID during 1961 thru 1982, can any living members of OCID during that time be found and then interviewed on film, just like David Lifton did so nobody gets to second guess their statements meaning...might make an interesting project or documentary. 

A.J

[Paul Brancato]

“I suspect your promised ‘decimating review’ will be as misleading, pitiful, ideologically driven, and amateurish as your ridiculous ‘review’ of Selverstone’s book The Kennedy Withdrawal.” 
Michael - that’s pretty inflammatory language. 

[Michael Griffith]

Here is an extensive article on Monroe's death written by liberal scholar and Tulsa University professor Jeremy Kuzmarov for Covert Action Magazine that views and uses Rothmiller as a credible source and that presents evidence that supports Rothmiller's account:

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/08/04/bombshell-sixty-years-after-her-death-new-evidence-suggests-marilyn-monroe-was-murdered-and-lapd-covered-up-murder/

Here are segments of a review of Bombshell posted on the popular book-review blog Jaffareadstoo:

          Mike Rothmiller served for ten years with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) and during that time he had access to certain secret files and from the knowledge gleaned from the files and from first hand testimonies and private diary entries he makes his case that Robert Kennedy, who was then, Attorney General,  was responsible for Marilyn Monroe's death.

          That there are dark secrets in the life of this enigmatic actress have long been known but the authors make a convincing case of presenting their new evidence in a consistent and believable manner.

          The book is complex as any investigation into an unexplained death must be and the authors give a comprehensive account of all those who featured in Marilyn's tragically short life, from the US security systems which were in place to trace her every move, to the men, in authority, and in the celebrity spotlight, who exploited and abused Marilyn for their own sexual gratification, and ultimately to the most powerful family in America, the Kennedys, who had so much to lose if Marilyn Monroe carried through her threat to expose them.

          Mike Rothmiller's argument that Robert Kennedy was responsible for Marilyn's Monroe's death is convincing and sheds a whole new light onto what happened on August 4th and 5th, 1962. 

You can read the whole review here: https://jaffareadstoo.blogspot.com/2021/07/publication-day-book-review-bombshell.html.

And here is a long, informative article on Bombshell by co-author Doug Thompson published in the UK newspaper the Daily Mail--the article provides a good summary of the book and includes information not mentioned in the book: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9750993/Did-Bobby-Kennedy-murder-Marilyn-Monroe-poison.html

For those who don't know who Doug Thompson is, he is an internationally respected writer and journalist who has written or collaborated on best-selling biographies of famous Hollywood figures. He is a regular contributor to newspapers all over the world. Four of his books are now being developed for TV, while another is being developed into a theatrical play. His book on the Muslim Brotherhood received wide praise. and was a sensation in the Arab world when it was published in Arabic. 

After spending many hours with Rothmiller going over every aspect of his story, Thompson became convinced that Rothmiller was "solid and credible."

Edited September 20, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[James DiEugenio]

If anyone is an amateur on that case it was Jeremy. And so is Doug Thompson.

It takes a very long time to understand the whole ugly mess that became the MM morass.  Only people who take the time to do so can understand what a hoax it really is.

Don McGovern has read something like 120 books on that case.  Plus he went through 1000 pages of documents from the  archives at CSUN from the Capell/Slatzer collection. Plus he helped Gary VItacco Robles write his 1200 page bio on MM, Icon, which is probably the best one out there.

Monroe grew up with a mother who had to be institutionalized.  She then lived in an orphanage and in some foster homes.  She  never met  her father, although she suspected who he was. She never met her sister until she was 15. Monroe had been married and divorced three times by the time she was 35.  MM tried to take her life four times previously.  She had three psychoanalysts in about 8 years. She was a terrible insomniac.

She became  a drug addict in the extreme who bought drugs off the black market. Two of the drugs she used were Tuinal and Nembutal.  At the time of her death, she had consumed something like 769 pills in about a month and a half. Both Tuinal and Nembutal are more or less off the market today and in fact, in some states, are used in assisted suicides, euthanasia.. It was the combination of Nembutal and Chloral Hydrate that killed MM, because the latter--when taken in excess-- can depress respiration and blood pressure.  In fact the amount of drugs she consumed would have killed 2-3 people. Her doctors should never have been allowing her to take that many drugs.  What happened to MM was what later happened to Elvis and Michael Jackson.  And, in fact, today her doctors would have been on trial and clearly been suspended, fined and perhaps even sent to prison.

Frank Capell, a professional Red baiter who was close to Hoover, decided to capitalize on Monroe's tragedy politically.  He wrote a pamphlet in 1964  to stop Bobby from winning his senate seat in New York.  Capell's pamphlet was the beginning of the political/commercial usage of MM, or as John GIlmore said, the trashing of Marilyn to cash in for a buck. Capell was followed by Norman Mailer and the professional fraud Robert Slatzer--probably the worst of the sorry lot.  Slatzer actually claimed he was married to MM.  This has been exposed as pure BS.  Once Slatzer published his book in 1974, the industry and the cheapjack imitators were on a rampage to trash both MM and the Kennedys.  And to even turn MM into a Mafia Moll.  Which is utterly crazy. The Outfit never owned her contract or came close to it as that BS book Double Cross tries to state.  How wacky did it get?  If you listen to these hacks, MM was actually at meetings on the Cuba project while Kennedy was president. Another one had her being used to entice Castro in the CIA plots. 

How nuts is nuts?  

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Gram]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Here is an extensive article on Monroe's death written by liberal scholar and Tulsa University professor Jeremy Kuzmarov for Covert Action Magazine that views and uses Rothmiller as a credible source and that presents evidence that supports Rothmiller's account:

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/08/04/bombshell-sixty-years-after-her-death-new-evidence-suggests-marilyn-monroe-was-murdered-and-lapd-covered-up-murder/

Here are segments of a review of Bombshell posted on the popular book-review blog Jaffareadstoo:

          Mike Rothmiller served for ten years with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) and during that time he had access to certain secret files and from the knowledge gleaned from the files and from first hand testimonies and private diary entries he makes his case that Robert Kennedy, who was then, Attorney General,  was responsible for Marilyn Monroe's death.

          That there are dark secrets in the life of this enigmatic actress have long been known but the authors make a convincing case of presenting their new evidence in a consistent and believable manner.

          The book is complex as any investigation into an unexplained death must be and the authors give a comprehensive account of all those who featured in Marilyn's tragically short life, from the US security systems which were in place to trace her every move, to the men, in authority, and in the celebrity spotlight, who exploited and abused Marilyn for their own sexual gratification, and ultimately to the most powerful family in America, the Kennedys, who had so much to lose if Marilyn Monroe carried through her threat to expose them.

          Mike Rothmiller's argument that Robert Kennedy was responsible for Marilyn's Monroe's death is convincing and sheds a whole new light onto what happened on August 4th and 5th, 1962. 

You can read the whole review here: https://jaffareadstoo.blogspot.com/2021/07/publication-day-book-review-bombshell.html.

And here is a long, informative article on Bombshell by co-author Doug Thompson published in the UK newspaper the Daily Mail--the article provides a good summary of the book and includes information not mentioned in the book: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9750993/Did-Bobby-Kennedy-murder-Marilyn-Monroe-poison.html

For those who don't know who Doug Thompson is, he is an internationally respected writer and journalist who has written or collaborated on best-selling biographies of famous Hollywood figures. He is a regular contributor to newspapers all over the world. Four of his books are now being developed for TV, while another is being developed into a theatrical play. His book on the Muslim Brotherhood received wide praise. and was a sensation in the Arab world when it was published in Arabic. 

After spending many hours with Rothmiller going over every aspect of his story, Thompson became convinced that Rothmiller was "solid and credible."

Credible people were duped by Bob Slatzer too, for decades. Read McGovern’s review, then read his lengthy piece I linked on Slatzer’s fiction-by-committee fraudulent book.

There is zero actual evidence for any of Rothmiller’s core claims. Zero, zilch, nada. All he has to offer is innuendo and hearsay, much of it second and third hand and totally contradictory to the actual, verifiable facts of Monroe’s life and death.  

I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but I have no idea how any reasonable person could still be convinced of Rothmiller’s credibility after reading McGovern’s review. McGovern presents actual, verifiable evidence that completely demolishes Rothmiller’s book. 

Do you believe that Rothmiller’s ridiculous, lurid transcriptions of Monroe’s alleged “little red diary” are legitimate? Did you know that the existence of that diary was never mentioned by anyone until Slatzer’s provably fraudulent book in 1974, 12 years after Monroe’s death? 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/marilyns-diary/

Do you believe that Rothmiller’s RFK poisoning scenario is actually credible? Rothmiller claims that Monroe died almost instantly after ingesting a poisoned drink prepared by RFK. However, barbiturate levels in Monroe’s liver indicate that she was alive for up to two hours after overdosing on Nembutal. The kicker is this: Rothmiller claims that Monroe was lucid and fighting with RFK immediately prior to RFK serving up the murder drink. 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/autopsy/

It’s actually a lot worse than that, but you get the gist. Not one of Rothmiller’s core claims is supported by any verifiable evidence, and many of his claims appear to be complete fabrications designed to titillate gullible readers and sell more books. 

[Michael Crane]

I remember reading that Giancana had her killed.He had her house bugged & sent in some thugs who injected her anally with a solution that would be out of her system by the time they tested.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Michael Crane

[James DiEugenio]

Michael:

Don McGovern analyzes that claim about her death in his book and shows it has no credibility.

Don and Gary VItacco Robles, in his new book Icon, part 2 shows that her house was never bugged.  It was an old house that had been rewired by the phone company.

Wiretapper Bernie Spindel never mentioned MM in his 1968 book.  And in a letter to the LA DA's office about the subject--contrary to what Robert Slatzer claimed--the New York authorities said that they never discovered any MM tapes when they raided Spindel's home on illegal wiretapping charges.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:28 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Paul and Tom.

Don McGovern is the gold standard on this.

Phew! Uh, no, he is not. You think the fringe fraud Fletcher Prouty is the gold standard on Vietnam and on Lansdale. You think the obscene propaganda film Hearts and Minds is the best documentary ever made on the Vietnam War. Have you even read Bombshell yet? I ask because you have a history of stridently attacking books that you haven't even read.

And what's with your personal attacks on Mark Shaw? Mark is a wonderful, decent, and sincere person. He has uncovered significant new evidence about Dorothy Kilgallen's murder and about internal dissension within the Warren Commission. He has reached many audiences that you and other far-left researchers have not reached. I'm guessing that you call him names and dismiss his research because he believes the Mafia was the main force behind JFK's death and/or because he has discussed the darker side of JFK and RFK (even though he also says they did many noble things).

Edited September 20, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Capell [writer of a pamphlet designed to trash Marylin Monroe] was followed by Norman Mailer and the professional fraud Robert Slatzer--probably the worst of the sorry lot. 

 

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Mailer's biography of Marylin Monroe:

Since Mailer did not have the time to thoroughly research the facts surrounding her death, his speculation led to the biography's controversy. The book's final chapter theorizes that Monroe was murdered by rogue agents of the FBI and CIA who resented her supposed affair with Robert F. Kennedy.^[76] Mailer later admitted that he embellished the book with speculations about Monroe's sex life and death that he did not himself believe to ensure its commercial success.^[77]

So Jim D. called it right. (At least in this case.)

For someone like Norman Mailer to make stuff up about MM's death "for a buck," that's a pretty good indication that other writers were doing the same. Nobody knew the truth about her death, so those who wrote about it were all speculating.

 

[Charles Blackmon]

58 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

For someone like Norman Mailer to make stuff up about MM's death "for a buck," that's a pretty good indication that other writers were doing the same. Nobody knew the truth about her death, so those who wrote about it were all speculating.

 

I read Mailer's "Oswald's Tale" some years ago. He really had me swayed to think Oswald was just "nutty", unpredictable enough to pull off the JFK murder on his own. I came back to my senses in time.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

I read Mailer's "Oswald's Tale" some years ago. He really had me swayed to think Oswald was just "nutty", unpredictable enough to pull off the JFK murder on his own. I came back to my senses in time.

 

Such are the hazards in trusting other people's judgements. Unfortunately we are often left no choice given that we ourselves cannot be experts on everything of interest to us.

But what we can do is to choose carefully whose judgements we do trust and follow those individuals. I've found that Jim D. is one of those people for me. I've seen him post only a few small things I disagree with him on.

(I've said this before, but lucky for me Jim has the ear of a very influential WC critic.)

 

[Michael Griffith]

17 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Credible people were duped by Bob Slatzer too, for decades. Read McGovern’s review, then read his lengthy piece I linked on Slatzer’s fiction-by-committee fraudulent book.

There is zero actual evidence for any of Rothmiller’s core claims. Zero, zilch, nada. All he has to offer is innuendo and hearsay, much of it second and third hand and totally contradictory to the actual, verifiable facts of Monroe’s life and death.  

I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but I have no idea how any reasonable person could still be convinced of Rothmiller’s credibility after reading McGovern’s review. McGovern presents actual, verifiable evidence that completely demolishes Rothmiller’s book. 

Do you believe that Rothmiller’s ridiculous, lurid transcriptions of Monroe’s alleged “little red diary” are legitimate? Did you know that the existence of that diary was never mentioned by anyone until Slatzer’s provably fraudulent book in 1974, 12 years after Monroe’s death? 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/marilyns-diary/

Do you believe that Rothmiller’s RFK poisoning scenario is actually credible? Rothmiller claims that Monroe died almost instantly after ingesting a poisoned drink prepared by RFK. However, barbiturate levels in Monroe’s liver indicate that she was alive for up to two hours after overdosing on Nembutal. The kicker is this: Rothmiller claims that Monroe was lucid and fighting with RFK immediately prior to RFK serving up the murder drink. 

https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/bombshell-the-night-rfk-killed-marilyn/autopsy/

It’s actually a lot worse than that, but you get the gist. Not one of Rothmiller’s core claims is supported by any verifiable evidence, and many of his claims appear to be complete fabrications designed to titillate gullible readers and sell more books. 

This is just so sad, and rather unsavory. You're calling Rothmiller a fraud because your mythical version of the Kennedy brothers and JFK's death cannot accommodate the explosive and revealing information that Rothmiller has disclosed from the OCID files and from other sources. You guys will swallow the demonstrably bogus, and often nutty, claims of a fringe fraud like Fletcher Prouty, because he supports your fantasies about the assassination, but you reject a genuine good guy like Rothmiller, who is on your side on most issues, because you don't like what he has to say about JFK and RFK.

If you would read Rothmiller and Thompson's book, you would learn that Rothmiller does not claim that Marilyn died "almost instantly" from the drink that Bobby gave her. He says Lawford believed that Marilyn was dead by the time he and RFK left her house. You would have known know this if you had the read the book before rushing to attack it.

There most certainly is evidence that supports Rothmiller's claims. If you'd break down and read the book, with an open mind, you'd see how much evidence McGovern doesn't even address, and how he nit-picks and misrepresents other evidence.

I'm wondering if you are aware that McGovern is--how can I phrase this?--an intensely devout, passionately adoring fan of Marilyn Monroe. Have you checked out his home page? He goes so far as to question whether Marilyn had affairs with JFK and Bobby. Indeed, he claims "there's no credible evidence" that she had affairs with JFK and RFK. "No credible evidence"??? Seriously??? That is ridiculous. McGovern even expresses doubt that Marilyn slept with a large number of men, despite the veritable mountain of evidence that she was extremely promiscuous. 

Were you aware of McGovern's worship and adoration of Marilyn when you read his review of Rothmiller and Thompson's book? Surely you noticed that in his review, McGovern makes it clear that he is very upset with how the book portrays Marilyn. Even though the book says many nice things about her, it also discusses her affairs with JFK and RFK and the fact that she slept with many other men. In short, you are relying on a review written by a worshipful fan who is so blinded by his adoration of Marilyn that he can't admit that she had affairs with JFK and RFK and slept with many other men. 

Devout, passionate, adoring Marilyn Monroe fans don't like Bombshell because it talks about Marilyn's promiscuity and drug problems. Go to their websites and you'll see that their reaction to the book has been almost universally negative, and many of them rely on fellow Marilyn devotee McGovern's review.

@James DiEugenioGary Vttacco Robles, in his new book Icon, part 2 shows that her house was never bugged.  It was an old house that had been rewired by the phone company.

Really? Then where'd the CIA get transcripts of phone calls to/from her house? You realize that Otash admitted to bugging and wiring her house, right? You know that Thompson actually interviewed Otash, right? You really should break down and read Rothmiller and Thompson's book before you make more invalid claims. 

@James DiEugenioIf anyone is an amateur on that case it was Jeremy. And so is Doug Thompson.

Oh, boy. So now you are attacking Jeremy Kuzmarov, as well as, of course, Doug Thompson. Their qualifications dwarf yours. You really cannot expect to be taken seriously when you continue to ardently defend an extremist fraud like Fletcher Prouty and continue to praise and cite his bogus, discredited claims. 

Personally, I would not be caught dead praising and quoting a guy who spoke at a Holocaust-denial conference, who appeared on Liberty Lobby's radio show 10 times in four years, who wrote a letter praising the goals of the IHR's Holocaust-denying journal, who attacked Church of Scientology whistleblowers, who defended L. Ron Hubbard, who spoke at a Liberty Lobby convention and co-chaired a panel with David Duke's VP candidate, who falsely claimed that he was sent to the South Pole so he wouldn't be able to help with security for JFK's Dallas motorcade, and who took seriously the nutty theories that Princess Diana was killed by the Secret Team and that Churchill had FDR poisoned, etc., etc. But that's just me.

Folks, I again recommend watching the two interviews with Mike Rothmiller. I think you will see that he is a genuine, credible, and serious person. I also recommend the articles by Kuzmarov and Thompson. Here they are again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TW0Eqjs_Oo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw6sti-AWkY (starts at 11:10 and ends at 1:10:49)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9750993/Did-Bobby-Kennedy-murder-Marilyn-Monroe-poison.html

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/08/04/bombshell-sixty-years-after-her-death-new-evidence-suggests-marilyn-monroe-was-murdered-and-lapd-covered-up-murder/

Edited September 21, 2023 by Michael Griffith