Question for JFKA Experts

[W. Niederhut]

       There are so many forensic JFKA details-- fabricated, suppressed, or otherwise-- that I have trouble keeping track of the bona fide facts.

       I was recently talking to a friend who asked me about the recent documentary in which the Parkland ER docs described the entry wound in JFK's throat, and threats they received to say nothing about the throat entry wound.

      My friend asked me if and where "they" ever found the bullet that caused the apparent neck entry wound.

      Does anyone know?

[David Josephs]

10 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

       There are so many forensic JFKA details-- fabricated, suppressed, or otherwise-- that I have trouble keeping track of the bona fide facts.

       I was recently talking to a friend who asked me about the recent documentary in which the Parkland ER docs described the entry wound in JFK's throat, and threats they received to say nothing about the throat entry wound.

      My friend asked me if and where "they" ever found the bullet that caused the apparent neck entry wound.

      Does anyone know?

One strong theory is that of the Ice Bullets discussed in the mid-70's.

If (and I say IF) that bullet ricocheted up it is possible they are describing it in the first paragraph.

Either case...  this does constitute an additional bullet not in evidence - anywhere.

[Pat Speer]

48 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

       There are so many forensic JFKA details-- fabricated, suppressed, or otherwise-- that I have trouble keeping track of the bona fide facts.

       I was recently talking to a friend who asked me about the recent documentary in which the Parkland ER docs described the entry wound in JFK's throat, and threats they received to say nothing about the throat entry wound.

      My friend asked me if and where "they" ever found the bullet that caused the apparent neck entry wound.

      Does anyone know?

The Parkland doctors did not search for the bullet they presumed had created the throat wound. Kennedy was dead. Their role was over. The Bethesda doctors supposedly did not even know there was a bullet wound in the throat until after the body had been taken away. In an attempt to establish an unobstructed passage through which JFK could breathe, Perry had cut through and enlarged the throat wound. And no one told this to Humes et al until the next morning, when a confused Humes called Perry. Kennedy was x-rayed at Bethesda however, and no bullet was noted in the neck or chest. HIs heart and lungs and innards were removed, moreover, and no such bullet was found. 

So...this mystery has never been solved. Some have mused that maybe there was an ice bullet. Others, such a myself and Tink Thompson, have wondered if the throat wound wasn't an exit for a fragment or bullet coming down the neck from the head. The WC, of course, claimed a bullet entered Kennedy's back two inches higher than shown in the autopsy photos, and passed through JFK from back to front even though the doctors said they could find no such passage. The HSCA then proposed this bullet entered at the location shown in the photos, when JFK was leaning sharply forward, even though the moment they claimed he was hit revealed him to be sitting erect, and then pass through the body from back to front, on a trajectory that would take it right through bone. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Tony Krome]

Goldstrich;

I saw the wound in the lower part of his neck. I looked in the neck wound and saw the cartilage of the trachea on the back side through the hole. I do not remember whether instruments had [yet] been used to expand the wound. I am clear, however, that I saw the posterior aspect of the trachea.

It appears from the above that he didn't observe an injury to the posterior aspect of the trachea.

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The Parkland doctors did not search for the bullet they presumed had created the throat wound. Kennedy was dead. Their role was over. The Bethesda doctors supposedly did not even know there was a bullet wound in the throat until after the body had been taken away. In an attempt to establish an unobstructed passage through which JFK could breathe, Perry had cut through and enlarged the throat wound. And no one told this to Humes et al until the next morning, when a confused Humes called Perry. Kennedy was x-rayed at Bethesda however, and no bullet was noted in the neck or chest. HIs heart and lungs and innards were removed, moreover, and no such bullet was found. 

So...this mystery has never been solved. Some have mused that maybe there was an ice bullet.

Must you spin the fact that the autopsists shared a “general feeling” JFK was hit with a high tech round?

“Some have mused” is a bit disingenuous.

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Others, such a myself and Tink Thompson, have wondered if the throat wound wasn't an exit for a fragment or bullet coming down the neck from the head.

A claim counterfeited by the hairline fracture of the right T1 transverse process.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

One strong theory is that of the Ice Bullets discussed in the mid-70's.

Indeed.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

It was also discussed by the autopsists with the body in front of them.

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

If (and I say IF) that bullet ricocheted up it is possible they are describing it in the first paragraph.

This scenario cannot account for the hairline fracture at T1.

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Goldstrich;

I saw the wound in the lower part of his neck. I looked in the neck wound and saw the cartilage of the trachea on the back side through the hole. I do not remember whether instruments had [yet] been used to expand the wound. I am clear, however, that I saw the posterior aspect of the trachea.

It appears from the above that he didn't observe an injury to the posterior aspect of the trachea.

 If he meant that the trachea wound was not the entrance or exit of something passing from front to back or back to front through the middle, he is in good company. Perry told the WC it was a "“small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side.”  

[Tony Krome]

6 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

"small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side.”

Just so readers can determine which side is the right, was Perry referring to JFK's right?

[Pat Speer]

49 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Just so readers can determine which side is the right, was Perry referring to JFK's right?

Yes. The defenders of the SBT make out that its being in the right is consistent with a passage from the back wound to throat wound. But I'm fairly certain a passage from the middle of the throat along the right side of the trachea leads further from the spine than their presumed entrance location. 

[Tony Krome]

3 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes. The defenders of the SBT make out that its being in the right is consistent with a passage from the back wound to throat wound. But I'm fairly certain a passage from the middle of the throat along the right side of the trachea leads further from the spine than their presumed entrance location. 

So we have a wound in the centre of JFK's neck and ragged laceration inside on JFK's right. Thanks.

[Ron Bulman]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

       There are so many forensic JFKA details-- fabricated, suppressed, or otherwise-- that I have trouble keeping track of the bona fide facts.

       I was recently talking to a friend who asked me about the recent documentary in which the Parkland ER docs described the entry wound in JFK's throat, and threats they received to say nothing about the throat entry wound.

      My friend asked me if and where "they" ever found the bullet that caused the apparent neck entry wound.

      Does anyone know?

This has been discussed somewhere else on the forum before.  I remember because my thoughts were routinely dismissed by some others.  

The entrance wound in the throat was described by 2 or 3 of the Dr's as small, I believe 1 or two of them mentioned it being 5-7 mm, roughly 1/4".  Dr Perry sliced that horizontally with scalpel maybe doubling it's width (?) to insert a fairly small tube.  Still, a small clean wound/cut.  Not what is seen in the death stare photo which looks more like someone took a hacksaw to his throat.  Why the difference in the Dallas description and the Bethesda photograph?

It's been established JFK's body arrived at Bethesda over an hour before the autopsy started.  There are assertions that surgery was performed in the interim to remove evidence of frontal shots, bullets or fragments which would show up in official x-ray's.  I'd think x-rays were done first to locate such.  Statements about the brain fell out, the spinal cord had been cut.  All I've read on this pertains to the brain.  Nothing about the throat wound.

One surgeon described it as a small caliber wound.  If JFK was hit in the throat with something like a 22 round it likely would not exit the throat, a hollow point would mushroom, doing more damage, but slowing it down.  It would need to be removed, a probe needed, forceps large enough to grasp it and pull it out.  This would have enlarged the entrance wound significantly.  I wonder though about to the near 2" gash seen in the photo.  Which made me wonder if they might have been told to make it look like an exit wound. 

[James DiEugenio]

RB: It's been established JFK's body arrived at Bethesda over an hour before the autopsy started.  

This is not accurate Ron. Quoting my review of Livingstone's Kaleidoscope:

 

 

Horne referred to it as the Boyajian report. Roger Boyajian was a Marine Sgt. on duty at Bethesda on the 22^nd. He led a small detail of men that day called the Honor Guard.[66] According to Horne, Boyajian wrote a report the next day that proves that it was his detail that actually brought in Kennedy’s casket at the earlier time of 6:35. Therefore Lifton and his body switching idea are upheld. In my review of Horne’s series, I did not mention Boyajian or his report. This was supposed to be dealt with by Gary Aguilar in another review of Horne’s series. Unfortunately Aguilar was going through a long and complicated divorce process that entailed him having to relocate. So he never got around to writing his review.

Well, Livingstone deals with the issue at length here, and in my opinion he does a good job with it. It would appear that Horne oversold the document and Livingstone uses the opportunity to really pile onto Horne with a lot of invective. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in that regard but let us spell out some of the problems that the document has and that Horne did not elucidate very well.

First, the actual report does not say that the casket picked up by Boyajian’s men was President Kennedy’s.[67] In the one sentence that deals with the issue it is referred to only as “the casket”. As Livingstone properly notes, this is a serious fault with Horne’s claim. It is hard to believe that if Boyajian knew he was handling JFK’s casket, would he not write that down and specifically note that fact?

Further, there is a real problem of authentication as this report is not signed by Boyajian and there is no trace in the record as to why he did not sign it. There is a second page to the report that lists the ten men in the detail – none of which signed the document either. What makes it all a bit worse is that when the ARRB questioned Boyajian about whether he recalled picking up Kennedy’s casket, Boyajian couldn’t recall doing so.[68] In fact, he could not recall much at all about that day. And importantly, it does not appear that the report the ARRB had was the original document leading us to question as to whether or not that original was ever filed with the military.[69] All of this seems strange if the casket really was Kennedy’s.

Additionally, Livingstone shows, if one lives in the area, as he did, it is very hard to understand how Horne could buy into this idea without questions. After all, Horne did live in Washington while working for the ARRB. As Livingstone describes it, the route through downtown Washington from Andrews AFB to Bethesda is about 18 miles.[70] But yet for the Boyajian report to say what Horne declares it says, somehow this transport traversed the 18 miles in about 20 minutes.[71] Unless the driver was proceeding at a continuous 60 MPH on city streets, this does not seem possible.

As Livingstone explains, Boyajian did not pick up Kennedy’s casket. Bethesda is also a morgue. It did not stop being so just because Kennedy was being transported there that day. Other military men died that day. After all, America was involved in a war. Livingstone interviewed several people who identified another person’s body being delivered to the morgue that day. There was no autopsy done and his body was being stored in the “Cold Room” for burial at Arlington.[72] The weight of the evidence seems to dictate that it was this person’s body that Boyajian’s detail picked up.

Edited November 27, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

This has been discussed somewhere else on the forum before.  I remember because my thoughts were routinely dismissed by some others.  

The entrance wound in the throat was described by 2 or 3 of the Dr's as small, I believe 1 or two of them mentioned it being 5-7 mm, roughly 1/4".  Dr Perry sliced that horizontally with scalpel maybe doubling it's width (?) to insert a fairly small tube.  Still, a small clean wound/cut.  Not what is seen in the death stare photo which looks more like someone took a hacksaw to his throat.  Why the difference in the Dallas description and the Bethesda photograph?

It's been established JFK's body arrived at Bethesda over an hour before the autopsy started.  There are assertions that surgery was performed in the interim to remove evidence of frontal shots, bullets or fragments which would show up in official x-ray's.  I'd think x-rays were done first to locate such.  Statements about the brain fell out, the spinal cord had been cut.  All I've read on this pertains to the brain.  Nothing about the throat wound.

One surgeon described it as a small caliber wound.  If JFK was hit in the throat with something like a 22 round it likely would not exit the throat, a hollow point would mushroom, doing more damage, but slowing it down.  It would need to be removed, a probe needed, forceps large enough to grasp it and pull it out.  This would have enlarged the entrance wound significantly.  I wonder though about to the near 2" gash seen in the photo.  Which made me wonder if they might have been told to make it look like an exit wound. 

This was something pushed by Lifton but it was almost certainly inaccurate. If a trach is performed to slip in a tube it is small, yes, but if the trach is performed over a pre-existing wound where the doctor is gonna look around and see the extent of the wound, it will be quite a bit larger. Millie Cranor and myself are about the only two researchers to pick up a medical textbook, and we came to this same conclusion. But you don't have to trust us. While making questionable statements about the head wound shown in the photos, Dr. McClelland was nevertheless consistent in his claim the photos showing the neck wound were of Kennedy, and depicted the incision he saw at Parkland. 

[Paul Rigby]

John Herbers, “Kennedy Struck By Two Bullets, Doctor Who Attended Him Says,” The New York Times, 27 November 1963, 20: 

Dallas, Nov. 26 – The continuing investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy has cleared up some questions about the number of shots and how many struck the President. 

Three shots are known to have been fired. Two hit the President. One did not emerge. Dr Kemp Clark, who pronounced Mr Kennedy dead, said one struck him at about the necktie knot. 

‘It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit.” 

Edward Epstein, Inquest – The Warren Commission & the Establishment of Truth (London, Hutchinson, proof copy, 210 note 11): 

“the New York Herald-Tribune, December 19, 1963, 8, stated that the pathologist who performed the autopsy reported ‘that the first bullet lodged in Kennedy’s lung.’ The Journal of the AMA (January 4, 1964, V187 N1, 15), said that the first bullet ‘did not go through the shoulder and was recovered during the autopsy’.”

[Michael Griffith]

16 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

       There are so many forensic JFKA details-- fabricated, suppressed, or otherwise-- that I have trouble keeping track of the bona fide facts.

       I was recently talking to a friend who asked me about the recent documentary in which the Parkland ER docs described the entry wound in JFK's throat, and threats they received to say nothing about the throat entry wound.

      My friend asked me if and where "they" ever found the bullet that caused the apparent neck entry wound.

      Does anyone know?

The throat-wound projectile could have been removed during the illicit pre-autopsy surgery identified by Doug Horne. 

The projectile may not have been a bullet but a small fragment of glass from the windshield, as some researchers, including Dr. Mantik, have suggested. 

Dr. Nathan Jacobs pointed out that the Parkland doctors described a laceration of the pharynx and trachea that was larger than the throat wound, indicating that the bullet had traveled from the front of the neck to the back (Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, p. 158 n 39).