The exoneration of Lyndon Johnson?

[Joe Bauer]

2. He was pinned by a Secret Service agent

Riding two cars behind Kennedy and Connally in the fateful Dallas motorcade, seated awkwardly next to Yarborough, LBJ "got a foretaste of what might lie ahead if he remained vice president," Caro writes: "Five years of trailing behind another man, humiliated, almost ignored, and powerless." But all that changed, of course, when Kennedy was shot. After the gunshots rang out, Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood threw Johnson to the floor of the car and covered him with his body. LJB rode that way, calmly, all the way to the hospital.

3. After the assassination, LBJ took charge

Years earlier, when LBJ "traded in the power of the Senate Majority Leader, the most powerful Majority Leader in history, for the limbo of the vice presidency," his whole demeanor changed, Caro reports. His shoulders had stooped, he developed a "hangdog look," and he was restless and fidgety. But on that fateful day in November 1963, as soon as top Kennedy aide Ken O'Donnell told LBJ that the president had died, everything changed. "Right then," LBJ ally Rep. Homer Thornberry said, Johnson "took charge." And everyone knew it.

4. LBJ wouldn't leave for D.C. without the Kennedys

The first big decision Johnson made was that he wasn't going to fly back to Washington without Jackie Kennedy and, by extension, JFK's body. Many worried that the assassination was part of a conspiracy, and that Johnson might be next, so the Secret Service quietly drove him back to Air Force One before the press learned that Kennedy was dead. LBJ's next big decision was getting sworn in as president on the plane, in Dallas. To legitimize the transfer of power, he wanted Jackie Kennedy and top JFK aides in the room when he took the oath.

5. His phone call to RFK fed a "great blood feud"

Before taking the oath, Johnson made a phone call from Air Force One to the attorney general, JFK's brother Robert, who loathed LBJ. Johnson wanted a legal opinion on where to take the oath, and the wording, but he also wanted to mute any criticism from the president's brother. Still, right after "Robert Kennedy had been told that the brother he loved so deeply was dead... he found himself talking to a man he hated," who was asking him how he could "without delay, formally assume his brother's office," Caro writes. Indeed, that bitter call "became a crucial element in the great blood feud" between the two men — "perhaps the greatest blood feud in American politics in the 20th century."

[Kirk Gallaway]

Yeah i know you feel that way, Roger..  I was suspecting someone would mention the appointment of Dulles, but I've heard conflicting things about how Dulles got the job. I've even heard Bobby suggested it.

So LBJ just intuitively knew Dulles and what Mc Cloy? had the gravitas to win out over Warren*, ( Boggs and Russell? We have recordings of LBJ agreeing with Russell that the SBT theory was a hoax. Even setting out with a preconceived goal. Explain to me how LBJ knew the verdict would be a slam dunk with no dissent and would play out satisfactorily?

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

  Starting with his order to illegally snatch the body back to Washington so they could control the results of a fake autopsy.

LBJ's order to illegally snatch bodies! Source?

 

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

And the phone call  to Air Force One that afternoon saying the killer had already been captured and he acted alone,

LBJ's phone call---Details , time, Source.

 

But aren't you confusing the assassination with the coverup? They could be different, you know.

You can argue LBJ's choices, when faced with the increasing uncertainty of who killed JFK, were pretty predictable. That is  to take  suspicion away from the Russians, Cubans, the government (Joint Chiefs and the CIA),appoint a commission and put it on a lone assassin, would be what most executives might do, and so didn't require a lot of guesswork.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that LBJ gets a windfall,  a makeover and a get out of jail free card, and actually becomes President!  It's a good bet to assume LBJ's not in a position to purge the government to find the assassin!

Get it?

 

 

*ok ww3, ehh! some bandy about Warren scandal!

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

2. He was pinned by a Secret Service agent

Riding two cars behind Kennedy and Connally in the fateful Dallas motorcade, seated awkwardly next to Yarborough, LBJ "got a foretaste of what might lie ahead if he remained vice president," Caro writes: "Five years of trailing behind another man, humiliated, almost ignored, and powerless." But all that changed, of course, when Kennedy was shot. After the gunshots rang out, Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood threw Johnson to the floor of the car and covered him with his body. LJB rode that way, calmly, all the way to the hospital.

3. After the assassination, LBJ took charge

Years earlier, when LBJ "traded in the power of the Senate Majority Leader, the most powerful Majority Leader in history, for the limbo of the vice presidency," his whole demeanor changed, Caro reports. His shoulders had stooped, he developed a "hangdog look," and he was restless and fidgety. But on that fateful day in November 1963, as soon as top Kennedy aide Ken O'Donnell told LBJ that the president had died, everything changed. "Right then," LBJ ally Rep. Homer Thornberry said, Johnson "took charge." And everyone knew it.

4. LBJ wouldn't leave for D.C. without the Kennedys

The first big decision Johnson made was that he wasn't going to fly back to Washington without Jackie Kennedy and, by extension, JFK's body. Many worried that the assassination was part of a conspiracy, and that Johnson might be next, so the Secret Service quietly drove him back to Air Force One before the press learned that Kennedy was dead. LBJ's next big decision was getting sworn in as president on the plane, in Dallas. To legitimize the transfer of power, he wanted Jackie Kennedy and top JFK aides in the room when he took the oath.

5. His phone call to RFK fed a "great blood feud"

Before taking the oath, Johnson made a phone call from Air Force One to the attorney general, JFK's brother Robert, who loathed LBJ. Johnson wanted a legal opinion on where to take the oath, and the wording, but he also wanted to mute any criticism from the president's brother. Still, right after "Robert Kennedy had been told that the brother he loved so deeply was dead... he found himself talking to a man he hated," who was asking him how he could "without delay, formally assume his brother's office," Caro writes. Indeed, that bitter call "became a crucial element in the great blood feud" between the two men — "perhaps the greatest blood feud in American politics in the 20th century."

I go into LBJ's actions at Parkland and the plane in unprecedented detail in Chapter 21 of my website. I pretty much took everything I could find on the subject and put it together and saw what made sense. Here is a section on the oath...

Through December 1966, Johnson had largely had his say. His time had passed. Now the Kennedys were having theirs...

Led by Kenneth O'Donnell... When interviewed for a 12-6-66 AP article (found in the Spokane Daily Chronicle), O'Donnell sought to clarify Manchester's claim Johnson had over-ruled him (O'Donnell) after he (O'Donnell)--not having been told the plane was set to be the site of Johnson's swearing-in ceremony--had ordered Air Force One to take off. O'Donnell explained that upon arrival at Air Force One "I didn't know that he (Johnson) was on the plane. I was under the impression he had already left." If he'd been told Johnson would wait for Mrs. Kennedy on Kennedy's plane, as Johnson insisted, O'Donnell would never have made that impression.

O'Donnell had thereby signaled that he wasn't about to back down. Johnson had not told him he would wait for Mrs. Kennedy. Period... This reflected badly on Johnson, and supported Manchester's supposition he'd orchestrated his return flight to Washington for political reasons.

Other articles fanned the flames. A UPI article on Mrs. Kennedy's efforts to further edit Manchester's book (found in the 12-16-66 Washington Reporter) relates: "Bennett Cerf, the publisher and television panelist, said Thursday that Mrs. Kennedy is sensitive to a passage describing Lyndon B. Johnson's taking over the presidential plane after Kennedy was shot in Dallas. Cerf, who said he wishes his Random House was publishing Manchester's book, read an unedited version of the manuscript and described it as 'a wonderful book which will sell a million copies.' Cerf said that the book relates that the presidential jet--Air Force One--and the vice-presidential jet were at Love Field in Dallas Nov. 22, 1963. The planes were identical--except for the "football," a bag containing information regarding procedures in case of nuclear attack. The book, according to Cerf, says the Kennedys were 'shocked and infuriated' when they returned to Air Force One with Kennedy's coffin and found Johnson occupying the presidential jet."

The Johnson Counter-attack

This demanded a response. On 12-16-66, one of Johnson's advisers, Robert Kintner, a former news executive for ABC and NBC, proposed that they plant an article telling Johnson's side of the story in either Time or Newsweek.

On 12-17-66, Johnson snapped. In a taped phone call, he discussed the Manchester book with his most secret and trusted adviser, Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas. At one point, Johnson asked "Who is the perpetrator of the fraud on us, Kenny O'Donnell, or General McHugh, or who?" Fortas then answered "Both. Those two... it's pretty obvious that those are the two villains." At another point they discussed Manchester's treatment of the disagreement between Johnson and Robert Kennedy on whether or not Kennedy had told Johnson he should be sworn-in in Texas. Johnson complained "there's also an implication that Bobby didn't want us to take the oath, when the implication to me was that he thought it better to take it there. And that he would have somebody call me and give me the oath." Well, I'll be. Johnson had as much as admitted to Fortas that Bobby had never told him to take the oath--and that he'd only implied as much.

And that's just the beginning. At a later point, Johnson went on a tirade about the book being but a slender part of a wider conspiracy: "I believe that Bobby is having his governors jump on me, and he's having his mayors, and he's having his Negroes, and he's having his Catholics... and he's having 'em just, systematically, one after the other, each day. And I think this book is just... I believe that each one of these things are timed." A bit later, he went even further. Aware that one of the issues at hand was the length of time he'd made Mrs. Kennedy wait on the plane, he asked Fortas "What does the evidence show about how long she waited? I was under the impression we waited for her." Fortas then responded "there was just under half an hour between the time that she arrived, and the time that the plane took off." Well, this would suggest he bought into the Secret Service timeline, and not the timeline suggested by Marie Fehmer's notes. A few seconds later, however, Fortas further confused this issue. He told Johnson:"Judge Hughes came about ten minutes later. And the takeoff was about fifty minutes after Mrs. Kennedy came aboard." Well, yikes. Fortas was now pushing the Fehmer timeline, and not that of the Secret Service. But wait, it gets weirder. He then continued "I had the impression it was the other way, I guess, because of what you told me. But this morning we checked the log... so she did have to wait awhile before Judge Hughes could come and before the plane could take off." Well, double yikes. This suggests that Johnson had been telling those close to him that Mrs. Kennedy had arrived after Judge Hughes, and not before.

Could his memory have really been that bad? Or was he simply willing to lie about anything?

The recollections of Congressman Jack Brooks, who'd waited with the Johnsons at Parkland, and returned to Washington with them on Air Force One, become relevant at this point. Brooks made some comments to Marie Fehmer while still aboard Air Force One. (Fehmer's notes on these comments, as Fehmer's notes on Johnson's actions, can be found on the Johnson Library website.) About Johnson's decision to leave Parkland, Brooks said merely that, after being told by the Secret Service that Kennedy had expired, and urged to "leave now," Johnson "thought he should not do that until they got a medical determination rather than a non-professional comment." When interviewed for the Johnson Library on 2-1-71, moreover, Brooks once again said nothing of Johnson's deciding, while still at Parkland, that he would wait for Mrs. Kennedy and the body when he got to the plane. Instead, when asked if Johnson was committed to the suggestion he be sworn-in on the airplane when Brooks first raised the issue, Brooks claimed: "He hadn't been committed to anything, he had just got there! The question hadn't come up. He agreed that that was the thing he ought to do. They got hold of Sarah Hughes and Sarah came out. We were waiting, of course, until Mrs. Kennedy, who wanted to ride back with us apparently, and the coffin."

Hmmm... How did Brooks come to believe it was Mrs. Kennedy's desire she ride back with Johnson? There's no evidence she was ever asked about this. Was this something Johnson had told Brooks?

And why did Brooks make it sound as though Mrs. Kennedy had arrived after Hughes? Was this something he'd come to believe, over time? Or was this something Johnson had told him, as well as Fortas?

In any event, Johnson's being told by Fortas that he would have to concede this point--that his decision to be sworn-in in Dallas had indeed inconvenienced Mrs. Kennedy--was not readily accepted. He began grasping at straws... He asked Fortas: "Is that gonna react on us or on them? That the president shouldn't be on the plane where the black bag is and where the communications is, and he should have gone on and taken off without takin' the oath?"

This was balderdash, of course, and bald-faced balderdash at that. The "bag," or "football," was a briefcase containing the nuclear launch codes. It was carried by an officer in the Signal Corps named Ira Gearhart. It was not on Air Force One. It was portable, and was designed to follow the President wherever he went. Johnson knew this, of course. He almost certainly knew as well that the bag could be used on his plane as easily as it could be used on Kennedy's plane. If he was so concerned about Gearhart and the bag when he left for the airport, for that matter, why did he leave without Gearhart, and force Gearhart to find his own way to the airport?

On 12-20-66, Johnson discussed the matter further, this time with Robert Kintner. Kintner told him that he'd had a talk with Mike Cowles, the publisher of Look Magazine, which was preparing to syndicate excerpts from Manchester's book. Kintner reported that "Bobby Kennedy does not agree that he told you to be sworn-in on Air Force One," but that, on the brighter side, Cowles claimed to have cut 90% of the material harmful to Johnson from the upcoming excerpts. According to Kintner, Cowles also offered to let Kintner come by and read the excerpts in secret. This, presumably, calmed Johnson down a bit just in time for Christmas.

On 12-26-66, however, he got reheated. Press Secretary Bill Moyers had received a copy of the January 2, 1967 issue of Newsweek. An article in this issue on the upcoming Manchester book relates: "Mr. Johnson's own recollection of his succession to power differs sharply from the Kennedys' evident perception of it. The Secret Service, he recalled, wanted to put him aboard Air Force One with its superior communications gear and to place Mr. Kennedy's coffin on the Vice Presidential plane, Air Force Two, which had flown LBJ to Texas. But Mr. Johnson ordered the body put aboard Air Force One. 'I wasn't going to let Mrs. Kennedy fly back alone with his body,' he explained to intimates."

Hmmm... This story was not only different from O'Donnell's recollections, it was different from Johnson's previous statements to the Warren Commission. To all appearances, Johnson was now trying to blame the Secret Service for his decision to fly back on Air Force One--a decision he'd previously attributed to O'Donnell.

As to the other main point of contention--whether or not Robert Kennedy had told Johnson he should be sworn-in in Dallas--Johnson appeared to stand firm. Newsweek reported: "He recalls telephoning Bobby ('I hate to bother you at a time like this, but') and asking for a ruling. Kennedy, he said, told him 'I think you should be sworn-in there,' but Bobby also said he would check it and call back. The return call came instead from then Deputy Attorney General Nicholas DeB Katzenbach, who advised Mr. Johnson to take the presidential oath at once and dictated its wording to a Johnson secretary."

Now, let's look at that again, in slo-mo. Johnson had told the Warren Commission, that after initially talking to Kennedy, "I thereafter talked with McGeorge Bundy and Walter Jenkins, both of whom urged that the return to Washington should not be delayed. I told them I was waiting for Mrs. Kennedy and for the President's body to be placed on the plane, and would not return prior to that time. As I remember, our conversation was interrupted to allow the Attorney General to come back on the line. He said that the oath should be administered to me immediately, before taking off for Washington, and that it should be administered by a judicial officer of the United States. Shortly thereafter, the Deputy Attorney General, Mr. Katzenbach, dictated the form of oath to one of the secretaries aboard the plane." Hmmm... He was thereby claiming Kennedy had told him in a brief second conversation that he should be sworn-in in Dallas. His story had changed. He was now telling people Kennedy had told him in their first and only conversation that he should be sworn-in in Dallas. While he may have simply forgotten about the second conversation, it doesn't say much for Johnson's credibility that he couldn't even keep his story straight.

If it was even his story... The tape of the phone call between Moyers and Johnson on 12-26 reveals that Moyers had called Charles Roberts of Newsweek and complained that, despite Newsweek's representations, Johnson had not actually spoken to Newsweek for the article. According to Moyers, Roberts freely admitted that they had not spoken to Johnson, but claimed "I talked to people to whom the President talked, and I'm confident of the information that we received." Johnson then told Moyers "I think we better write a nice paragraph and say, I've had no interviews on the subject at all. And this is completely inaccurate, and untrue, and unfair...that I've asked my staff not to discuss it. And ask 'em to publish it..." Johnson had thereby indicated his dissatisfaction with the article.

He was unhappy with the article and he wanted everyone to know about it. Johnson Press Secretary George Christian spoke about the article hours later, and his comments were picked up in the evening papers. A 12-26-66 UPI article found in the Eugene Register quotes Christian as follows: "The President has granted no interviews to anyone including Mr. Manchester and has asked his staff to refrain from discussing the subject--the entire subject of the book...He did not talk to Newsweek." The article then quotes what would appear to be an official statement by Johnson: "I'll not discuss the various attributions credited to so-called friends and alleged intimates except to say that I believe them to be inaccurate and untrue."

And yet...there's reason to believe Johnson was bluffing. Over the course of their long and winding phone call, Johnson and Moyers came to agree that the writers of the article hadn't just made stuff up, and that a number of those close to Johnson had in fact spoon-fed them the article. While several segments of the article were misleading and inaccurate, it seems more than a coincidence that, but 10 days before Moyers' called Johnson to complain about an article telling Johnson's side in Newsweek, Robert Kintner had suggested the administration plant a story in Newsweek.

And that was but one of the coincidences. It also seems more than a coincidence that the claim in the article that Johnson was pressured to fly back on Air Force One, due to its superior communications, was something Johnson had just told Fortas. And it's also a bit odd that, while it was Moyers who'd called Johnson to tell him about the article, it was Johnson who told Moyers several minutes into their discussion that Charles Roberts' co-writer on the article was a woman named Norma Milligan, and that she'd flown in from Oklahoma to work on the article. And it also seems odd that, a short time after completing his call with Johnson, Moyers called him back to tell him he'd just spoken to Fortas, and that Fortas had said that Johnson should be "careful" in his complaining about the article because "most of it is good for our side," and that "it makes you look good, even if it is based upon an inaccurate thing." This, then, led Moyers and Johnson into a discussion of the problems inherent with too many people thinking they know the President's thoughts, and their sharing these thoughts with hungry journalists, desperate for an inside scoop. At one point, Johnson even admits "i would imagine it's (Washington insider and Johnson adviser) Clark Clifford, or Abe, or somebody that just had these feelings."

The probability, then, is that the article was indeed fed Newsweek by Johnson's people, with Johnson's approval, but behind Moyers' back. While historian Max Holland, for one, takes Johnson's complaints about the article, and Johnson's professed desire to stay above the fray, seriously, it seems more likely Johnson was lying through his teeth to Moyers, at one time one of his most trusted assistants, but by December 1966 a no-longer entirely trusted lame duck on his way out the door.

Johnson's problem with telling the truth, after all, is more than apparent when one studies his phone calls. At one point in this call, Johnson reads sections of the Newsweek article to Moyers, and complains about each section. When he comes to the section on the oath of office, and reads "'I think you should be sworn-in there,' Bobby said," he complains "I don't think Bobby said that at all. I don't think Bobby took any initiative or any direction. I think that Bobby agreed that it would be all right to be sworn-in, and said he wanted to look into it, and he would get back to me, which he did."

Oops. Let's recall that Johnson had complained to Fortas on the 17th that "there's also an implication that Bobby didn't want us to take the oath, when the implication to me was that he thought it better to take it there. And that he would have somebody call me and give me the oath." Johnson had thereby indicated that Kennedy had never actually told him to take the oath. Now, in this call with Moyers, he confirmed that Kennedy had never specified such a thing. And yet, Johnson had told the Warren Commission on 7-10-64 that Kennedy had "said that the oath should be administered to me immediately, before taking off for Washington." And yet, Jackie Kennedy had told William Manchester in early '64 that Johnson had told her on the plane that Kennedy had "said he had to be sworn-in right there in Dallas." And yet, Marie Fehmer's notes from 11-22-63, typed up on the plane en route to Washington, reflect that Johnson had told her that he'd just been talking to Walter Jenkins, and that "The Attorney General interrupted the conversation to say that I ought to have a judicial officer administer the oath here." And yes, she put this in quotes, indicating it was a direct quote from Johnson.

Johnson had been telling people from day one that Robert Kennedy had specifically told him he should be sworn-in in Dallas, and was now admitting to his advisers, in phone calls he'd never dreamed would become available to the public, that Robert Kennedy had done no such thing!

Hmmm... This makes McCone's claim to Manchester--that he'd overheard Kennedy tell Johnson he should be sworn-in immediately--even more curious, yes?

Conclusion number 7: Johnson lied both on the plane, and afterwards, about the substance of his call with Robert Kennedy.

[James DiEugenio]

First, a point i already addressed, the maestro of the cover up was Hoover.  In second place was Rowley. Those are the two people who submitted the investigations to the WC.  I have never seen evidence that Johnson was involved in their day to day dealings.  The most one can say is he asked them to have it done before the election. But does anyone think the verdict would have been different if they came in later?

Look, the turnaround in policy on Vietnam was almost instant. Anyone can have an opinion, but that is all it is when confronted with facts.  As John Newman proved, this turnaround began at the first meeting on Vietnam, while Kennedy's body was in the rotunda.  LBJ kept Lodge as Ambassador, when in fact, Kennedy was going to terminate him.  And everyone at that meeting noticed a real  change in attitude and tone, now it was like America had to win--not withdraw quietly and then leave.

It was then continued with NSAM 273, which LBJ altered from the draft.  Newman again proved that this alteration caused the Tonkin Gulf incident. 

But even before that, NSAM 288 essentially outlined how the war was going to be carried to the north. Every credible writer agrees on this issue that NSAM 288 was a milestone on the path to war and reversed Kennedy.  What Kennedy did not do in three years, LBJ had now done in 3 months.

Finally, the Tonkin Gulf resolution was written before the Tonkin Gulf incident took place!  And one of the men who LBJ assigned to change the policy toward that end, well it was Mr. Sullivan.  This is the guy who excised the withdrawal plan from the Taylor/McNamara report. When JFK heard of this he called them into his office and put it back in.

These are facts, not opinions.

And it does not prove that LBJ was part of the plot.  But the plotters could obviously figure that he was more militant on the issue than JFK was. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

The only time Roger said anything about Harriman is when he disagreed with your assessment that the idea of there being no Soviet involvement originated with him.

You can read it yourself if you wish, here:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29950-the-exoneration-of-lyndon-johnson/?do=findComment&comment=522596

 

<quote>

SL:  The information back to Air Force 1 saying that Oswald was the lone murderer probably originated from whoever consulted Harriman.

 

RO:  Nah. McGeorge Bundy was running the WH situation room that sent the message.  He had already rewritten NSM 263 to allow for escalation in Vietnam that Johnson signed one day after Kennedy was buried.  Coming so soon after the murder with such a definitive statement of guilt means it was clearly planned beforehand by the killers.

</q>

 

Seems to me Roger was taking issue with an implication someone other than Bundy consulted Harriman.

 

That’s how I took it.

 

</quote on>

 

RO:  There was a faction that wanted Oswald linked to the Cubans and Soviets. But Johnson said no. 

</q>

 

Johnson said no after he was informed by Harriman that Foggy Bottom opposed such a claim.

 

<ibid>

Either before the murder as they were drawing up the final plan and coverup, or shortly after the murder.  Some Cubans went ahead anyway to tie Oswald to Castro, but that was swiftly snuffed out. As president Johnson wanted no part of a conflict with the SU. 

</q>

 

The United States enjoyed nuclear dominance until the USSR reached parity in ‘65 (see Garett Porter’s The Perils of Dominance.). Did Johnson fear Khrushchev starting a war the Soviets couldn’t win if the US invaded Cuba in retaliation for the JFKA?

 

<ibid>

He had lusted after the presidency too long to see it go up in flames with a war with them.

</q>

 

The USSR would risk annihilation over Cuba?

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Seems to me Roger was taking issue with an implication someone other than Bundy consulted Harriman.

 

That’s how I took it.

 

I'll ask him.

@Roger Odisio, do you think McGeorge Bundy could have gotten his information -- that Oswald was the lone gunman -- from Averell Harriman?

 

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Yeah i know you feel that way, Roger..  I was suspecting someone would mention the appointment of Dulles, but I've heard conflicting things about how Dulles got the job. I've even heard Bobby suggested it.

So LBJ just intuitively knew Dulles and what Mc Cloy? had the gravitas to win out over Warren*, ( Boggs and Russell? We have recordings of LBJ agreeing with Russell that the SBT theory was a hoax. Even setting out with a preconceived goal. Explain to me how LBJ knew the verdict would be a slam dunk with no dissent and would play out satisfactorily?

LBJ's order to illegally snatch bodies! Source?

 

LBJ's phone call---Details , time, Source.

 

But aren't you confusing the assassination with the coverup? They could be different, you know.

You can argue LBJ's choices, when faced with the increasing uncertainty of who killed JFK, were pretty predictable. That is  to take  suspicion away from the Russians, Cubans, the government (Joint Chiefs and the CIA),appoint a commission and put it on a lone assassin, would be what most executives might do, and so didn't require a lot of guesswork.

And that's not even mentioning the fact that LBJ gets a windfall,  a makeover and a get out of jail free card, and actually becomes President!  It's a good bet to assume LBJ's not in a position to purge the government to find the assassin!

Get it?

 

 

*ok ww3, ehh! some bandy about Warren scandal!

We're not talking about my feelings, Kirk. I've set out a logic to try to understand what happened.  Perhaps you should respond to the key elements of that.

Like explaining how the "murder and coverup could be different".  By that I suppose you mean done by different people and/or planned at different times.   Please explain how you think it's possible, or even makes sense, that folks who planned the murder would *not* have also planned, at the same time before the murder, how to get away with it.  And beyond that, how to maximize their chance to get what they wanted out of the murder. I'm saying Johnson was a key to both things.

As to the rest of your note.  Bobby knew first hand Dulles' hatred for his brother.  His first instinct was to suspect the CIA was involved. At the time of the murder,  Dulles was still running important aspects of the CIA from his home in Georgetown.  It was Johnson who floated the idea that Bobby suggested he appoint Dulles to the WC (I think it was after Bobby was dead).  You "heard about" the idea , but to give it any credence is ludicrous.

The 7 appointees to the WC were folks Johnson trusted to perform their job as figureheads.  Staff did the job of framing Oswald  and they mostly went along. Three of them dissented from the magic bullet theory--apparently not even realizing that would destroy the WR itself (an indication of how little they were involved in the process).  Senator Russell in particular made his dissent known to Johnson and in written form to the WC. His dissent does not appear in the WR, nor is there any indication that any of the members disagreed with anything in the report.

Jack Valenti was sitting with Johnson on the plane when Johnson gave the order to take JFK's body.  He recounts the episode in his book defending Johnson, A Very Human President.  He praised Johnson for making his "first command decision".  Pat has already explained this in this thread.  The staff wrote the report, the figureheads signed it, and presented it to Johnson for a photo op.

The phone call to Air Force One was not made by LBJ. It came from the White Situation Room. Coming so soon after the shots that day, it was obviously part of the coverup that had to have been planned before the murder because it contained details no one could have known at the time it was placed.  As I explained.  Including the reason for the call.

 

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

Yeah, LBJ is the ultimate low hanging fruit of JFK conspiracy lore. He just couldn't help it with all his motives.

 

Kirk,

     Solving crimes by a consideration of motives is hardly, "low hanging fruit."  It's good detective work.

     Cui bono?  Who benefitted most significantly from JFK's murder?

     Phillip Nelson's biographies of LBJ are valuable in that regard, and worth reading.

     LBJ was, obviously, power hungry and ruthless-- a bona fide psychopath.  

     Yet, by November of 1963, LBJ was facing the possible ignominious end of his political career.

     Even if he managed to evade prosecution in the Baker case, he was looking at an almost certain second Presidential term for JFK, (from 1965-69) most likely followed by an RFK Presidency after 1968.

     So, LBJ's longstanding goal of becoming POTUS was increasingly unlikely.

     Concurrently, LBJ had relationships with Cold War hawks in the U.S. military, the CIA, and FBI, who strongly disagreed with JFK's peace initiatives.

     

Edited December 11, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[Cliff Varnell]

Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"

<quote on> 

I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot. 
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

<quote off> 

Jack Ruby was Jewish.

In 1963 Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913) and McGeorge Bundy (Skull & Bones 1940) were the top two WASPs in the US government.
 

[Roger Odisio]

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I'll ask him.

@Roger Odisio, do you think McGeorge Bundy could have gotten his information -- that Oswald was the lone gunman -- from Averell Harriman?

 

The call came from the WH situation room (not apparently from Bundy himself who was running the place at the time). Since it came so soon after the murder and contained assertions the caller could not have verified beforehand, it must have been planned ahead of time by the killers.  

Do I know the specific person who ordered the call?  No.  Is that important?  I don't think so.  Whoever it was, he was a planner or someone representing them, and carrying out the coverup plan they had devised.  

An aside to Cliff.  Salandria explained what he thought was the motive for call as part of the coverup.  It was to convey to those coming back from Dallas, maybe particularly the Kennedy aides, that no matter what you think you saw, we have officially solved the murder.  Don't interfere.

[Roger Odisio]

6 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Vincent Salandria: "Notes on Lunch with Arlen Specter on January 4, 2012"

<quote on> 

I explained [to Specter] that the day after the Kennedy assassination I met with my then brother-in-law, Harold Feldman. We decided that if Oswald was the killer, and if the U.S. government were innocent of any complicity in the assassination, Oswald would live through the weekend. But if he was killed, then we would know that the assassination was a consequence of a high level U.S. government plot. 
Harold Feldman and I also concluded that if Oswald was killed by a Jew, it would indicate a high level WASP plot. We further decided that the killing of Oswald would signal that no government investigation could upturn the truth. In that event we as private citizens would have to investigate the assassination to arrive at the historical truth.

<quote off> 

Jack Ruby was Jewish.

In 1963 Averell Harriman (Skull & Bones 1913) and McGeorge Bundy (Skull & Bones 1940) were the top two WASPs in the US government.
 

I don't understand the Jew and WASP bit, Cliff, other than as a tortured attempt to tie Harriman and Bundy together as significant factors in the murder.  I don't think they were.   Bit players perhaps.

The rest of that is Salandria on the money.

[Benjamin Cole]

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Because there was no upside in killing JFK if Johnson was gonna continue his policies, but more importantly you don't get quid if you don't give quo. Johnson had to know who he was indebted to. While the HSCA was flawed in many ways, one thing Blakey got right, IMO, was his his comparing the number of mafia investigations under LBJ vs. JFK. They fell off the table. As the war in Vietnam became a hot one for the U.S. after the 64 election, moreover, it appears JFK's refusal to send ground troops to Vietnam similarly fell off the table. 

When it came out in the 70's that the mafia had been working with the CIA, well, that sent many of those pooh-poohing the assassination as the work of lil' old Oswald into wondering if this nexus of killers had teamed up to enact regime change. Tellingly, this investigation only got rolling after LBJ's death. Well, here we are, 50 years later, and the most viable theories still have at their core a group of rogue CIA agents and anti-Castro Cubans with ties to the mafia.

P.S. One of the doors I walked through when I first began researching this mess was Robert Maheu. And this led me to an incredible realization. That sucker was kind of a genius. He was approached by the CIA to see if he could get the mob to kill Castro. He was supposed to do this as a cutout, so the CIA had plausible deniability. He was, after all, a front man for Howard Hughes and had done similar work for other billionaires in the past. But he turned around instead and told the mob exactly who he was working for, which gave both he and them a get-out-of-jail free card, that both he and Giancana and Rosselli took advantage of. In any event, the Church Committee testimony is all over the place, and it seemed likely to me that Maheu was playing both sides--he had the CIA thinking he was working for them while working with the mob, and he had the mob thinking he was working for them while working with the CIA. When in fact he may have been working for Hughes or some other billionaire, and getting the mob and CIA to do his bidding. 

PS--

 

Yes, there is reasonable speculation about LBJ. 

There is also tons of evidence against LHO, and no one has any evidence he was working with others on the JFKA. I have been looking for 50 years for something concrete. 

So...do we have one standard to exonerate LHO, and another to convict LBJ? 

Well, little do my concerns matter, but suffice it to say it is unsettling to see suspicions aired as truths, in the JFKA or more-recent political events. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

The call came from the WH situation room (not apparently from Bundy himself who was running the place at the time).

Not from Bundy?  Where do you get that idea?

The President Has Been Shot, Charles Roberts (p. 141) A reporter for Newsweek, Roberts was on AFI and saw McGeorge Bundy at Andrews Air Force Base, where Air Force One landed. 

<quote on> 

I remember looking at (McGeorge) Bundy because I was wondering if he had any word of what had happened in the world while we were in transit, whether this assassination was part of a plot. And he told me later that what he reported to the president during that flight back was that the whole world was stunned, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy at all.

<quote off>

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Since it came so soon after the murder and contained assertions the caller could not have verified beforehand, it must have been planned ahead of time by the killers.  

Do I know the specific person who ordered the call?  No.  Is that important?  I don't think so. 

The last thing we want to do is follow a lead...

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Whoever it was, he was a planner or someone representing them, and carrying out the coverup plan they had devised.  

An aside to Cliff.  Salandria explained what he thought was the motive for call as part of the coverup. 

He also cited Jim Bishop as the basis for his assertion McGeorge Bundy made the call.

The Tale Told by Two Tapes by Vincent Salandria  

<quote on>

[National Security Adviser] McGeorge Bundy was in charge of the [White House] Situation Room and was spending that fateful afternoon receiving phone calls from President Johnson, who was calling from Air Force One when the lone-assassin myth was prematurely given birth. (Bishop, Jim, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, New York & Funk Wagnalls, 1968, p. 154) McGeorge Bundy as the quintessential WASP establishmentarian did not take his orders from the Mafia and/or renegade elements. 

<quote off> 

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

It was to convey to those coming back from Dallas, maybe particularly the Kennedy aides, that no matter what you think you saw, we have officially solved the murder.  Don't interfere.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Pat Speer]

54 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

PS--

 

Yes, there is reasonable speculation about LBJ. 

There is also tons of evidence against LHO, and no one has any evidence he was working with others on the JFKA. I have been looking for 50 years for something concrete. 

So...do we have one standard to exonerate LHO, and another to convict LBJ? 

Well, little do my concerns matter, but suffice it to say it is unsettling to see suspicions aired as truths, in the JFKA or more-recent political events. 

I don't believe I've ever said we know LBJ was complicit in JFK's murder. I agree that much of what's been written about LBJ is probably bs. But I find his own statements on the assassination and aftermath suspicious as heck. 

Anyhow, I think you'll find much to like in this section...

From chapter 21: 

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, William Manchester began work on his book The Death of a President. This was to be an authorized book, one for which Manchester was granted unparalleled access. On 4-10-64, Manchester interviewed CIA Director John McCone. (A transcript of this interview was placed in the CIA's files. It was declassified in October, 1998. It is 15 pages long. Manchester's notes on this interview were first made available in 2009, and are only 4 pages long. This suggests that McCone taped his conversation with Manchester, but that Manchester was not allowed to tape McCone. I guess this isn't much of a surprise.) In any event, McCone told Manchester that after hearing of the shooting, he called Robert Kennedy "through the White House. When I got him at his home he told me he was at home, and he asked if I would come right over." McCone then described Kennedy's mood and activities. He then claimed he'd overheard Robert Kennedy's conversations with Johnson on the day of the shooting, and that after being asked about the oath of office in a first call "He contacted his office--and I've forgotten just who in that office--to find out exactly just who could or should administer the oath. He found that any federal judge could do it, and he transmitted that information together with appropriate references so they could get the exact oath down to Dallas. He insisted that the swearing-in be done immediately. I think President Johnson felt the same way. He did not want the country to go the two hours and a half that President Johnson would be in the air without a President. And that was arranged. This involved several phone calls." McCone then described the arrival of a Catholic Priest. He said that this priest "sensed that the Attorney General was involved in the myriad of problems that arose almost at once, you know--his concern over Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy, his concern over the swearing-in of the President." He then continued: "There was a period of half an hour, I suppose, that he was debating whether to fly to Dallas himself to return with the body and with Mrs. Kennedy. I urged that he not do that, stating that there was an element of time--that the best thing to do would be to bring the president's body up as quickly as possible, as quickly as it could be released, and he couldn't possibly get down there for three or four hours, by the time he got aboard a plane and got down there, and he would be out of touch all the time that he was in the air. He agreed with this, and as a result either decided or agreed with the decision that the body should be brought up with President Johnson and Mrs. Kennedy just as quickly as possible."

Hmmm...so McCone told Manchester Robert Kennedy not only told Johnson he should be sworn-in in Dallas, but that he--Robert Kennedy--had "either decided or agreed that the body should be brought up with President Johnson and Mrs. Kennedy." Hmmm...is this credible? This not only exonerates Johnson for the swearing-in's taking place in Dallas, but Mrs. Kennedy's returning on his plane. This is mighty curious, and suspicious when one takes into account Robert Kennedy's statements on the matter. Perhaps, then, Johnson had gotten to McCone.

Or perhaps McCone was on board with Johnson from the beginning.

Yeah, yeah, I know this smells like dog dirt, but indulge my paranoia for a second... McCone told Manchester that upon hearing of the shooting, he called Robert Kennedy, and that Kennedy asked him to come right over to his house. He then claimed he'd spent the next hour or so walking around Kennedy's house and grounds, talking to him about the assassination in between the incoming calls.

Well, wait a second. McCone was the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, not some retired businessman or old friend. Didn't he have a job to do? Shouldn't he have been at CIA Headquarters, digging up everything he could regarding a possible conspiracy? Shouldn't he have been on the phone, calling up everyone he knew to find out everything he could? His holding Bobby's hand in a time of national crisis simply makes no sense--unless one is to assume this was something previously agreed upon by the person to whom McCone would now be reporting, Lyndon Johnson. Yes, shockingly, there is no record of McCone talking to Johnson--who purportedly suspected a Russian or Cuban attack from the outset--on the day of the shooting. Johnson received briefings from National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, but there is no record of him talking to CIA Director John McCone until the next morning.

Heck, the record of what was discussed the next morning is also kinda suspicious. On 11-25-63 McCone created a memo on this, his first meeting with his new boss after the killing of his old boss. This memo reveals that they met at 9:15 in the office of National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy, and that the meeting lasted "approximately 15 minutes." The memo reveals as well that they discussed their own personal and professional relationship--that there were a number of issues that had arisen during the Kennedy Administration on which they'd "seen eye to eye." It then reveals that McCone had "confirmed" his confidence in Johnson, as well as his "desire to help and support him in every way..." McCone then describes their reviewing details of the "President's checklist" and their agreeing to meet every morning for the next few days. That's it. The meeting lasted but fifteen minutes. Apparently, there was no extended discussion of Oswald, or of Russian activity.

Now contrast McCone's 11-25-63 memo with the transcript of his 8-19-70 interview with the Johnson Library. When asked when he first saw Johnson after the shooting, McCone replied "I think I saw him at his home that night." (This was incorrect. Johnson's calendar of phone calls and visitors shows it was the next morning-- a fact confirmed by McCone's 1964 interview with Manchester, where he claimed "I did not see him that evening when he arrived--I saw him the next morning, and I saw him every day for a long time--sometimes several times a day.") In any event, when then asked Johnson's mood during this meeting, McCone replied: "Well, his mood was one of deep distress over the tragedy, and grave concern over how to get his arms around the problems that confronted him--some concern over how to properly handle the men in the organization whose competence he recognized, but also whose allegiance to President Kennedy-- And, of course, you know the background of issues that arose that dated 'way back to the convention here in Los Angeles and even before."

Well, wait a minute. The man whose competence Johnson recognized, with whom he'd had a problem dating back to the convention and even before, was Robert Kennedy. Did Johnson spend his first meeting with John McCone, the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency--the agency tasked with determining the likelihood Russia, our number 1 enemy of the day, had backed the main suspect in the shooting, Lee Harvey Oswald--talking about "Bobby"?

And, if so, is it all that far-fetched to assume McCone visited "Bobby" on the day of the shooting--at a time when he had serious business to attend to--at his new boss Johnson's direction?

On 5-16-64 Manchester interviewed Robert Kennedy. The recording of this interview, while still withheld from the public, was made available to Arthur Schlesinger for his 1978 book Robert Kennedy and His Times. According to Schlesinger, Kennedy claimed "John McCone called me and said 'I'll come out,' and he came out..." Hmmm... McCone told Manchester that Kennedy had asked him to come over, while Kennedy, in his interview with Manchester, said nothing of the sort, and suggested instead that McCone had come over without even being invited.

And that's just the little "hmmm..." According to Schlesinger, Kennedy described the phone call Johnson made to him as follows: "First he expressed his condolences. Then he said... this might be part of a worldwide plot, which I didn’t understand, and he said a lot of people down here think I should be sworn-in right away. Do you have any objection to it? And – well, I was sort of taken aback at the moment because it was just an hour after... the President had been shot and I didn’t think – see what the rush was. And I thought, I suppose at the time, at least, I thought it would be nice if the President came back to Washington – President Kennedy... But I suppose that was all personal... He said, who could swear me in? I said, I’d be glad to find out and I’ll call you back." Schlesinger then wrote that Kennedy called Katzenbach, and found out any federal judge could give Johnson the oath. Schlesinger then returned to quoting Kennedy: "So I called Johnson back and said anybody can..." Kennedy's account of the call was thus in line with Marie Fehmer's notes on every point but one--a big one--Kennedy didn't mention telling Johnson he should be sworn-in in Dallas during the second phone call.

And Kennedy wasn't the only one pushing against the tide. In his 5-18-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, Kenneth O'Donnell insisted that, at Parkland Hospital "As soon as I was assured that he (Kennedy) was dead, and it was definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken..." O'Donnell then claimed Johnson started discussing some security measures he might take at the airport, such as moving the plane to a nearby military base, but that he shot Johnson down on this matter, reiterating that Johnson should leave without delay, and that "it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, where he was under security, and got aboard one of the aircraft." O'Donnell then claimed that he didn't specify which plane Johnson should board, Air Force One or Air Force Two, which were nearly identical. He then testified that when he arrived at Air Force One with Mrs. Kennedy and the president's body "I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be honest, until I saw the members of the crew" and that, prior to the loading of President Kennedy's casket onto the plane, "I didn't know President Johnson was on the plane." He was then asked point blank if there had been any discussion of President Johnson's waiting for Mrs. Kennedy on Air Force One while at Parkland, and responded: "There had been no discussion of that to my knowledge. Once the President--the Vice President--left, I left him, I had not seen him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on the airplane." He was then asked what happened after he realized Johnson was on the plane, and waiting to be sworn-in: "the President and I carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn-in prior to the aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on it. I just listened to him. We sat there." Hmmm... O'Donnell backed down after being told Robert Kennedy had said the swearing-in was preferable. Apparently, Johnson had said something similar to Jacqueline Kennedy. Presumably, Robert Kennedy, Jacqueline Kennedy, and Kenneth O'Donnell were now telling everyone who would listen that Robert Kennedy had never said such a thing...and that Johnson had lied and manipulated them when they were at their weakest.

Unfortunately for Johnson, for that matter, one of his closest cronies was unable to help him in his ongoing effort to blame O'Donnell and Robert Kennedy for the decisions made in Dallas. On 5-20-64, Johnson assistant Clifton Carter provided an affidavit to the Warren Commission that tried to keep the peace. It read: "At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emery Roberts brought the news that President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Lem Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy. Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry (O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for the Washington area."

And that wasn't the end of a bad week for Johnson. Unfortunately for Johnson, one of Kennedy's closest cronies was in a position to help, but did not. On 5-26-64 Lawrence F. O'Brien testified before the Warren Commission. O'Brien had been a close Kennedy aide. Unlike O'Donnell, however, he'd retained much of his influence under Johnson. This made his statements especially intriguing. And they didn't disappoint. First and foremost, he suggested that Johnson's presence on Kennedy's plane came as a surprise to both Kenneth O'Donnell and himself.He told the Commission that, after helping lift Kennedy's coffin onto the plane, he "noticed that seats to the left of the door had been removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment from that area of the plane." He then testified "During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a preference in his view to have a swearing-in ceremony immediately. And that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes."

O'Brien's subsequent words were more descriptive on this point. In his 1974 book No Final Victories, written after Johnson's death, O'Brien claimed that when he and O'Donnell first spoke with Johnson on the plane "I told Johnson about the problem we'd had at the hospital and said I thought we should take off immediately. I knew that the delay was terribly painful to Jackie. 'No, I've talked with the Attorney General,' Johnson said. 'He thinks I should be sworn-in here.' Then it hit me. This man is President of the United States. After that, I didn't argue." Although a bit murky, O'Brien's words suggest that he'd actually explained to Johnson that further delay would be "terribly painful to Jackie," and that Johnson had nevertheless responded by invoking Robert Kennedy as the authority indirectly causing her this pain. Hmmm... If Johnson had really done this, and had lied to O'Brien about Kennedy's comments, well, he was indeed quite the weasel.

That Johnson had lied about what O'Donnell and Kennedy had told him, and had lined up the likes of Rufus Youngblood, Lem Johns, and John McCone as support for his lies, however, seems a very real possibility. One can only assume the Kennedys thought as much. They most certainly doubted Johnson's reasons for being on the plane in Dallas. In a 6-2-64 interview of Mrs. Kennedy, conducted by historian Arthur Schlesinger and finally released in 2011, she volunteered "I don't know if Lyndon had an Air Force One just like it or one of the older planes, but he always kept pushing for a bigger plane. And--or for more--all the kind of things like that he wanted, the panoply that goes with power, but none of the responsibility."

Mrs. Kennedy's words, one can only assume, stuck with Schlesinger. When one looks at June 1964 in his journal, published 2007, one finds that he talked about the flight back from Dallas with Air Force General Godfrey McHugh on 6-5-64, and was told that neither Kenneth O'Donnell nor McHugh knew Johnson was on Air Force One when they arrived at the plane. McHugh told Schlesinger, furthermore, that, upon arrival on the plane, he'd initially been told the plane was being held until Mrs. Johnson's luggage could be brought over from the other plane, and not that they were waiting for Judge Hughes.

This, apparently, whet Schlesinger's appetite. His journal reflects further that he tried to talk about the flight with Mrs. Kennedy at a get-together on 6-16-64, but was cut-off when a third party changed the subject.

This, then, brings us to Johnson's account of his actions. In his 7-10-64 statement to the Warren Commission, Johnson related: "It was Ken O'Donnell who, at about 1:20 p.m., told us that the President had died. I think his precise words were, "He's gone." O'Donnell said that we should return to Washington and that we should take the President's plane for this purpose... When Mr. O'Donnell told us to get on the plane and go back to Washington, I asked about Mrs. Kennedy. O'Donnell told me that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the hospital without the President's body, and urged again that we go ahead and and take Air Force 1 and return to Washington. I did not want to go and leave Mrs. Kennedy in this situation. I said so, but I agreed that we would board the airplane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the President's body were brought aboard the plane... Despite my awareness of the reasons for Mr. O'Donnell's insistence--in which I think he was joined by one or more of the Secret Service agents--that we board the airplane, leave Dallas, and go to Washington without delay, I was determined that we would not return until Mrs. Kennedy was ready, and that we would carry the President's body back with us if she wanted...When we got to the airport, we proceeded to drive to the ramp leading into the plane, and we entered the plane. We were ushered into the private quarters of the President's plane. It didn't seem right for John Kennedy not to be there. I told someone that we preferred for Mrs. Kennedy to use these quarters. Shortly after we boarded the plane. I called Robert Kennedy, the President's brother and the Attorney General. I knew how grief-stricken he was, and I wanted to say something that would comfort him. Despite his shock, he discussed the practical problems at hand--problems of special urgency because we did not at that time have any information as to the motivation of the assassination or its possible implications. The Attorney General said that he would like to look into the matter of whether the oath of office as President should be administered to me immediately or after we returned to Washington, and that he would call back. I thereafter talked with McGeorge Bundy and Walter Jenkins, both of whom urged that the return to Washington should not be delayed. I told them I was waiting for Mrs. Kennedy and for the President's body to be placed on the plane, and would not return prior to that time. As I remember, our conversation was interrupted to allow the Attorney General to come back on the line. He said that the oath should be administered to me immediately, before taking off for Washington, and that it should be administered by a judicial officer of the United States. Shortly thereafter, the Deputy Attorney General, Mr. Katzenbach, dictated the form of oath to one of the secretaries aboard the plane. I thought of Sarah Hughes, an old friend who is judge of the U.S. district court in Dallas. We telephoned Judge Hughes' office. She was not there, but she returned the call in a few minutes and said she would be at the airplane in 10 minutes. I asked that arrangements be made to permit her to have access to the airplane. A few minutes later Mrs. Kennedy and the President's coffin arrived. Mrs. Johnson and I spoke to her. We tried to comfort her, but our words seemed inadequate. She went into the private quarters of the plane. I estimate that Mrs. Kennedy and the coffin arrived about a half hour after we entered the plane, just after 2 o'clock. About a half hour later, I asked someone to find out if Mrs. Kennedy would stand with us during the administration of the oath. Mrs. Johnson went back to be with her. Mrs. Kennedy came and stood with us during the moments that the oath was being administered. I shall never forget her bravery, nobility, and dignity. I'm told that the oath was administered at 2:40 p.m."

Let's note first that Johnson's statement is largely based on Marie Fehmer's notes. It repeats that Robert Kennedy called Johnson back to tell him the "oath should be administered immediately." It also claims Mrs. Kennedy arrived at the plane just after 2:00. That Johnson was willing to admit this last fact in his statement, moreover, supports that the Secret Service claim she arrived at 2:14 or 2:15 was, if not true, an innocent mistake, or at least not a lie pushed by Johnson.

Now note that Johnson stressed that, upon reaching the plane, he was ushered into the president's "private quarters" and that he told "someone" that "we preferred for Mrs. Kennedy to use these quarters." Well, this hid that Johnson turned around and used these "private quarters" to make a series of phone calls. And that's not all. While it's widely reported that Mrs. Kennedy spent the bulk of the flight in the back of the plane with her husband's casket and companions, the location of Mrs. Johnson on the flight back from Dallas is rarely discussed. In a 10-18-69 Oral History interview with the Johnson Library, however, Johnson aide Jack Valenti was asked point blank her whereabouts on the flight back from Dallas, and admitted "most of the time she was back in the little bedroom." Apparently, the Johnsons' preference the private quarters be reserved for Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy alone was asking too much...of themselves.

Now note that Johnson and O'Donnell's stories were at odds on two key points. Johnson claimed that before he (Johnson) left Parkland Hospital for the airport he was told by Ken O'Donnell to fly back on "the President's plane," which in this context would mean Kennedy's plane, number 26000. O'Donnell denied doing any such thing. Johnson then indicated that he (Johnson) had told O'Donnell at Parkland that he would wait for Mrs. Kennedy on "the President's plane." O'Donnell denied this as well.

Johnson's story was also at odds with Robert Kennedy's, of course. He claimed Kennedy told him the oath should be administered immediately in Dallas, while Kennedy--at least in Schlesinger's account--recalled no such thing.

Even so, the writers of the Warren Report--not surprisingly, in light of the fact their report was designed in part to clear Johnson--chose to take his word on these matters. In Chapter 2 of the report--a chapter written by Arlen Specter, then edited by Norman Redlich--it is claimed that O'Donnell told Johnson of Kennedy's death. It then relates: "When consulted by the Vice President, O'Donnell advised him to go to the airfield immediately and return to Washington.245 It was decided that the Vice President should return on the Presidential plane rather than on the Vice-Presidential plane because it had better communication equipment.246" The citation for footnote 245 reads "Id. at 152; 7 H 451 (O'Donnell); 5 H 561 (Johnson)." The claim is accurate and the citation is accurate. The citation for footnote 246, however, reads simply "Ibid." The Free Online Dictionary defines "Ibid" as "In the same place. Used in footnotes and bibliographies to refer to the book, chapter, article, or page cited just before." Note the words "just before." The page cited just before was a page from Johnson's statement. By placing a sentence in which O'Donnell "advised" Johnson before a sentence in which "it was decided" Johnson should return on the Presidential plane, the report had implied O'Donnell was a party to this decision. The writers of the report had thereby chosen to ignore O'Donnell's sworn testimony--the testimony they'd found credible enough to cite in the preceding footnote--and had decided to instead push the facts as related in Johnson's un-sworn statement. They'd then hidden this fact from the public.

It should come as no surprise then that they also accepted Johnson's word on the conversation he'd had with Robert Kennedy. The report claimed "From the Presidential airplane, the Vice President telephoned Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, who advised that Mr. Johnson take the Presidential oath of office before the plane left Dallas.263" They, of course, never double-checked this with Kennedy.

As a result, the Johnson/O'Donnell and Johnson/Kennedy conflict on these matters was little recognized. It lay hidden beneath the surface of Washington politics.

Conclusion number 5: the Warren Commission was deceptive in its reporting of the aftermath of the assassination, and showed undue deference to Johnson's version of events.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Roger Odisio said:

I don't understand the Jew and WASP bit, Cliff, other than as a tortured attempt to tie Harriman and Bundy together as significant factors in the murder.  I don't think they were.   Bit players perhaps.

The rest of that is Salandria on the money.

The actions of Harriman and Bundy tie together as significant factors in the murder.  I’m just demonstrating Salandria’s prescience.

Are you familiar with the career of Averell Harriman, or the sway he wielded over SE Asia policy?

Earlier in their careers the Dulles brothers were Harriman employees.  I doubt that ever changed.