LHO was in Mexico City

[Benjamin Cole]

28 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Leonov is very persuasive in the 1998 documentary, The Secret KGB JFK Assassination Files.

I haven't pursued in earnest, but I'm curious why there is so little available on Ilya Semyonovitch Pavlotsky, the ranking member of the KGB unit investigating the assassination.  Other than Mark Bridger's article in Dealey Plaza Echo, 1999, which appears to rely on the documentary which was later advanced in the O'Leary / Lee publication, The Deaths of Cold War Kings (2000), nothing has jumped out about Ilya.

Is there more to that documentary than meets the eye, particularly the misidentification of Michel Mertz? Who funded it other that those named in the credits? Those following through lines from Dallas to our contemporary political crisis might look closely at Bradley O'Leary and the NRA.

https://jfkfacts.org/senior-kgb-insider-said-lee-harvey-oswald/

This is Leonov's account of seeing LHO in MC, and then recognizing him on TV post-JFKA, as provided by Jeff Morley. 

[Leslie Sharp]

12 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

https://jfkfacts.org/senior-kgb-insider-said-lee-harvey-oswald/

This is Leonov's account of seeing LHO in MC, and then recognizing him on TV post-JFKA, as provided by Jeff Morley. 

As noted, I'm aware of Leonov.  I'm asking whether Pavlotsky has been studied at all? 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

1. We have three KGB employees, including Kostikov, who flatly stated on the record, filmed and recorded, they met the real LHO in MC.

 

That's all you have.

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

2. We have Cuban Embassy employee Mirabal, who said he saw the real LHO in MC. 

 

Mirabel most definitely did not say that the "Oswald" in the Cuban Consulate was the real Oswald. What he DID say is that he didn't get a good look at the guy.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/pdf/HSCA_Vol3_0918_3_Mirabal.pdf

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

3. We have Duran, who says the LHO shot on TV by Ruby was the same LHO she met.

 

She did NOT say they were the same. She assumed they were because they  had the same name and everybody was saying they were the same.

What Duran DID say is that the "Oswald" she met was short and blond. Just like what Azcue said, that he was blond.

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LHO also signed documents in front of [Duran], and provided a photos himself. At the time, she accepted those photos and signatures as true. They photos do not show a blond man. 

 

We don't know how the photos on the visa application got there. You assume that they were the same ones the blond "Oswald" handed over to Duran.

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

4. We have KGB'er Oleg M. Nechiporenko's book, that describes paper work and KGB statements affirming the real LHO's presence in MC. 

 

Same as #1.

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

So, you may not believe the evidence, and that is your right.

 

Oh, but I DO believe the evidence. Most of it points to Oswald not being there. In addition, the evidence that J. Edgar Hoover saw that we haven't convinced him that Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City.

 

14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That extra action might be throwing you off.

 

That "extra action" --  which you ignore -- makes a lot of sense to me. It is at the heart of the conspiracy theory that I and many others believe. Including James DiEugenio and Peter Dale Scott.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

32 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's all you have.

 

 

Mirabel most definitely did not say that the "Oswald" in the Cuban Consulate was the real Oswald. What he DID say is that he didn't get a good look at the guy.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol3/pdf/HSCA_Vol3_0918_3_Mirabal.pdf

 

 

 

 

She did NOT say they were the same. She assumed they were because they  had the same name and everybody was saying they were the same.

What Duran DID say is that the "Oswald" she met was short and blond. Just like what Azcue said, that he was blond.

 

 

We don't know how the photos on the visa application got there. You assume that they were the same ones the blond "Oswald" handed over to Duran.

 

 

Same as #1.

 

 

Oh, but I DO believe the evidence. Most of it points to Oswald not being there. In addition, the evidence that J. Edgar Hoover saw that we haven't convinced him that Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City.

 

 

That "extra action" --  which you ignore -- makes a lot of sense to me. It is at the heart of the conspiracy theory that I and many others believe. Including James DiEugenio and Peter Dale Scott.

 

That's fine. We are on different pages on this one. I disagree with your interpretations of what Duran and Mirabal said, but I have said what I am going to say. 

 

[Jean Ceulemans]

Don´t know about the consulate or embassy visits, but first: wasn´t his presence in MC simply conformed by the cleaning lady and the guys at the hotel reception desk. I think they had 3 or4 people in there confirming LHO was there, people that, on first sight(?) didn´t have strong propaganda or political motives.  His presence in MC needs to be confirmed (or not) before anything else.  Anyone knows about the hotel employees not being reliable as witnesess?  If we can confirm he was there, a visit to the emb./consul. wouldn´t be too odd, but they would want to keep control on whatever that was spoken about there, deniability was their major concern, one fake call (an obviously faked one does the job), easy.  From that call on, they could say LHO wasn´t there. Or he was there, but some things attributed to him were not said by him but by some imposter, etccccc.  Just to be clear, IMO, LHO was being watched.  I also think there were photo´s , but these could not be shown as they would limit the fabrication of any story they would/could need.

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

Don´t know about the consulate or embassy visits, but first: wasn´t his presence in MC simply conformed by the cleaning lady and the guys at the hotel reception desk. I think they had 3 or4 people in there confirming LHO was there, people that, on first sight(?) didn´t have strong propaganda or political motives.  His presence in MC needs to be confirmed (or not) before anything else.  Anyone knows about the hotel employees not being reliable as witnesess?  If we can confirm he was there, a visit to the emb./consul. wouldn´t be too odd, but they would want to keep control on whatever that was spoken about there, deniability was their major concern, one fake call (an obviously faked one does the job), easy.  From that call on, they could say LHO wasn´t there. Or he was there, but some things attributed to him were not said by him but by some imposter, etccccc.  Just to be clear, IMO, LHO was being watched.  I also think there were photo´s , but these could not be shown as they would limit the fabrication of any story they would/could need.

 

I think that three  of the hotel staff said they saw "Oswald," and that two of the three thought he matched a photo of Oswald that was shown to them.

Of course, this report may have been altered or fabricated for the purposes of the cover up. Remember, the U.S. government decided to go with the "Oswald visited Mexico City, and did so alone" narrative. They certainly didn't want the public to ever know that there was an imposter.

J. Edgar Hoover believed that "Oswald" was being impersonated in MC, and called the MC incident a CIA charade. Which was something the WC covered up. Why should we believe that the WC was straight with us and J. Edgar Hoover was wrong?

IMO, those who believe Oswald was likely in MC have been fooled by the coverup.

 

[David Josephs]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:45 PM, Pat Speer said:

I don't remember his name, David, but the American who put together Nechiporenko's book spoke at the 2013 Bethesda conference. He came across as credible, IMO. As a good capitalist, he saw an opportunity to make a buck after the collapse of the Soviet Union. His angle--fly to Moscow and sign up former KGB agents to tell their stories. Well, he met with a number of them, and described them as mostly bitter old vodka drinkers, as I remember. In any event, he met with Kostikov and others who could confirm Nechiporenko's story, and said they all backed him up. He said, furthermore, that he was hoping they'd tell him something sexy, and was kind of disappointed when they did not. That's the way I recall it, anyhow. His presentation is probably available somewhere. 

FWIW, I was sitting with John Judge during this presentation. As I recall Judge was a bit mystified by what he had just witnessed. I remember talking with him afterwards and him expressing some disbelief, but I can't remember if he thought the man himself was some government shill, or that the former KGB agents had obviously lied to him. I think it was the former. But can not swear to it. 

I'm not understanding the reluctance to accept the KGB/Russian members/participants/undercover-staff simply parroted the lies presented by the CIA and WCR to the world for any one of a number of reasons including the the I elude to below.   

Do either of you think the Russians did not have their own cameras on their own buildings? If he was there in the manner presented, (like at the window pulling the trigger), the attempt to find evidence of the "truth" would not be so difficult in an honest investigation.

None of that is involved in this case.  None of it.

Are you of the opinion that the KGB was not aware of the machinations in setting up and performing the assassination itself, or the French, Germans, English intel services for that matter...???  - and that it would be in their best interest to do what they said they did in the released document related to MX given to Clinton?

@Benjamin Cole  What possible advantage or purpose is served by the KGB telling the truth and insisting they confirm he was NOT there in the face of the WCR, CIA, FBI, and HSCA/Lopez report?  As I see it, none.

By simply agreeing to whatever the "story" was - the likelihood of exposure of investigation into anything would be curtailed.

If he was there at any point in time...  how is it we don't have tapes/transcripts/reports of these key Russians mentioning him or even referencing someone who could be him, in any of the CIA surveillance?

 

"Oswald, notwithstanding the holiday schedule,... spoke to a Consul"   

 

 

CIA says he's not there... when they could have

 

FBI said he wasn't there, when they could have.  Instead, while knowing he wasn't there - again, in the manner of which we are aware - these reports with a supporting report could have easily done so.

But it doesn't.

 

[David Josephs]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:15 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I think that three  of the hotel staff said they saw "Oswald," and that two of the three thought he matched a photo of Oswald that was shown to them.

I realize my work on MX is quite long and spread over 5 chapters...

The manager, maids, and related service people at the hotel in which the FBI placed him via their asset OCHOA are reported upon, some of which I discuss, and we find the same inconclusive results including the 1 small brown zippered travel bag.

The story of the "taxi" comes to mind.  And that the FBI/CIA reports having him checking out the night before all this supposedly occurs.

FWIW

 

[David Josephs]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:29 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

We don't know how the photos on the visa application got there. You assume that they were the same ones the blond "Oswald" handed over to Duran.

@Benjamin Cole

This is testimony from one of the Aussie women supposedly having talked to Oswald on a bus.  Her travel itinerary makes it impossible for her to have seen Oswald.. and by definition with Bowen, he said there were no englich speaking people on the buses he was on...

The McFarland's were English, as well.  Line 18 was for Mrs McFarland.  This kind of notation was for the traveling companion.. suggesting that Bowen too was traveling with someone.

Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

 

[Pat Speer]

44 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

@Benjamin Cole

This is testimony from one of the Aussie women supposedly having talked to Oswald on a bus.  Her travel itinerary makes it impossible for her to have seen Oswald.. and by definition with Bowen, he said there were no englich speaking people on the buses he was on...

The McFarland's were English, as well.  Line 18 was for Mrs McFarland.  This kind of notation was for the traveling companion.. suggesting that Bowen too was traveling with someone.

Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

 

Simple question, David. IF the Russians KNEW Oswald had never actually visited their embassy in Mexico City, WHY would they not have said something in the years and decades after the assassination? It was a cold war, largely fought through propaganda. IF Oswald had never visited them, and they knew it, they would have been given a propaganda bomb. Why wouldn't they use it? 

[Paul Cummings]

Neturalized them and the Soviets knew they had no hand in it. Bigger battles to choose from than getting involved in US domestic issues.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

@Benjamin Cole

This is testimony from one of the Aussie women supposedly having talked to Oswald on a bus.  Her travel itinerary makes it impossible for her to have seen Oswald.. and by definition with Bowen, he said there were no englich speaking people on the buses he was on...

The McFarland's were English, as well.  Line 18 was for Mrs McFarland.  This kind of notation was for the traveling companion.. suggesting that Bowen too was traveling with someone.

Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.

 

Well, I am talked out on this topic. 

Pat Speer raises a reasonable question. My guess is Russians never made the false claim---that LHO never visited the Russian Embassy---as they feared US intel in fact had photos or other surveillance of LHO there. 

So not only would they be caught in a lie, they would be caught in a lie that suggested they had something to cover up regarding the JFKA. 

Happy holidays to all. 

 

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Happy holidays to all.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

We may disagree on some matters, but you are an earnest and smart researcher, and you may be right on MC. 

And don't worry---I am solidly in the CT camp. 

[Ed LeDoux]

14 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Simple question, David. IF the Russians KNEW Oswald had never actually visited their embassy in Mexico City, WHY would they not have said something in the years and decades after the assassination? It was a cold war, largely fought through propaganda. IF Oswald had never visited them, and they knew it, they would have been given a propaganda bomb. Why wouldn't they use it? 

You mean why would soviets admit the fake defector was at the embassy.

If they are the fakers then no they have no bomb, and wont be dropping it.

Besides, hint hint

They already propagandized it.

(and they sounded like fools)

Whats next a song and dance on the embassy steps by a Six foot tall 250 lb blonde Lee Oswald (but not captured on film because all intell surveillance cameras were sent out for cleaning of course) it was a holiday. 

Question, Seeing as our intell knew Lee wasnt on film, tape or photographed then why would anyone believe he was there? 

Did Lee catapult himself to MC or catch a ride on a CIA charter as the border crossing/s put a huge shadow on any fabled trip.

Cant get to MC without passing GO

And now let the excuses fly as to the russians, blonde oswalds and why no proof of Lee at any embassy in MC has ever been "dropped"

 

Maybe Occam can shave you down.