Roger Odisio Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 11 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Paul, I can be specific on this one because we know from the work of the ARRB that they tried to recover his papers in respect to his outreach about knowledge indicating a conspiracy and his daughter refused to release them. If they still exist to some extent they are with his family. In regard to Burkley at Parkland, I don't think he specifically made a decision or gave an order; I do think he related to the SS agents that Jackie was greatly stressed and distraught and that she was refusing to leave the body, if it stayed in Dallas she would stay and it would be more trauma for her. At that point the agents, stressed, feeling guilty and unhappy with all things Texan (and likely not trusting anything local in regard to security) acted at their own initiative and situationally, in their own emotional state. Jackie was in shock. Everyone around her could see that. She was not going to leave the body. It was best to get her back to DC as soon as possible. I'm sure Berkley made that point to the local coroner. National security was raised too, as there was some uncertainty about the extent of the danger that lie ahead. However, I suspect that Dr. Rose thought that since he had sole authority to perform the autopsy, it was important to follow the law. He probably was still resisting after Berkley made his case. It was going to take more to take the body from him. But I part ways with your conclusion of what that extra was--emotional SS agents acted on their own initiative to snatch the body from Dr. Rose. Whoever was in charge of the SS detail at the hospital must have known the (legal) situation. What role did Johnson's call to the hospital ordering the body to be delivered to the plane have in your scenario? Or, since you haven't mentioned it, do you dispute such a call was made? Johnson had larger issues on his mind than his concern for Jackie's health. I think he already knew how important it was to get the body back to DC in order to control the autopsy. The words "we have an order from the President" were probably sufficient to move Dr Rose out of the way, drawn guns or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Can you provide a source for a Johnson call from the hospital as well as the timing as related to the movement of Johnson, Jackie and the body out of Parkland? I'm not aware of any such call... Actually if you read SWHT 2010 you have my thoughts on the full chronology of events that day and that has not really changed since I wrote it based on the ARRB releases, Doug Horne's work and my own research on Johnson's security response - which I discuss in even more detail in Surprise Attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said: He had perhaps the unique perspective on the post-mortem procedures - and he was a ranking naval officer - so he could easily have been legitimately following orders throughout. I always thought it was odd to have JFKs personal physician at the autopsy but as you point out, with Burkley being a ranking naval officer, and the autopsy taking place at Bethesda, a case could be made for why it was ok to have Burkley present at the autopsy. Burkley was controlling the autopsy at Bethesda in an effort to conceal for Mrs Kennedy that JFK had Addisons disease. Its possible that at Parkland Burkley and Mrs Kennedy discussed this and Burkley realized that the only way to conceal JFKs Addisons disease was to get the body out of Parkland and back to Bethesda where he could control the autopsy to prevent JFKs secret from getting out. So its quite possible that the SS at Parkland were working under orders from Burkley. Burkley spinning the story to the SS officers that Mrs Kennedy wanted JFKs body out of Dallas while concealing the real reason why she wanted the body out of Dallas, to prevent JFKs Addisons disease from becoming public knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Odisio Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 7 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Can you provide a source for a Johnson call from the hospital as well as the timing as related to the movement of Johnson, Jackie and the body out of Parkland? I'm not aware of any such call... Actually if you read SWHT 2010 you have my thoughts on the full chronology of events that day and that has not really changed since I wrote it based on the ARRB releases, Doug Horne's work and my own research on Johnson's security response - which I discuss in even more detail in Surprise Attack. To my knowledge, Pat Speer first mentioned the call on here a few weeks ago. There was a passage in Jack Valenti's defense of Johnson, A Very Human President, 1975, in which Valenti talks about the call. He was sitting next to Johnson on the plane when the call was made. Valenti describes the call as Johnson's first important decision of his administration, and praises it. I haven't seen that book and don't know precisely when the call was made. But surely it was sometime before the transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 37 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: I always thought it was odd to have JFKs personal physician at the autopsy but as you point out, with Burkley being a ranking naval officer, and the autopsy taking place at Bethesda, a case could be made for why it was ok to have Burkley present at the autopsy. Burkley was controlling the autopsy at Bethesda in an effort to conceal for Mrs Kennedy that JFK had Addisons disease. Its possible that at Parkland Burkley and Mrs Kennedy discussed this and Burkley realized that the only way to conceal JFKs Addisons disease was to get the body out of Parkland and back to Bethesda where he could control the autopsy to prevent JFKs secret from getting out. So its quite possible that the SS at Parkland were working under orders from Burkley. Burkley spinning the story to the SS officers that Mrs Kennedy wanted JFKs body out of Dallas while concealing the real reason why she wanted the body out of Dallas, to prevent JFKs Addisons disease from becoming public knowledge. Gerry - why would Jackie care if Addison’s disease was revealed? While he was alive maybe. Don’t you think she cared who done it, that her husband was gone, that LBJ was calling the shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Looks like we would have to leave that to Pat evaluate then Roger, of course no such call is on the AF1 tape we have now. Certainly not a Johnson call to Parkland telling somebody (who?) there what to do with the president's body. For that matter I'm not sure how the call would have been made given AF1 communications and the fact that the Secret Service folks were using extensions and even public phones at the hospital. Its an interesting idea but I would need to see a lot of leg work to be comfortable with it... Perhaps you can reach out to Pat for some details, if true its amazing that nobody has made a point to research the timing in regard to the individual movements of Johnson, Jackie and the body and put this issue to bed up to now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Looks like we would have to leave that to Pat evaluate then Roger, of course no such call is on the AF1 tape we have now. Certainly not a Johnson call to Parkland telling somebody (who?) there what to do with the president's body. For that matter I'm not sure how the call would have been made given AF1 communications and the fact that the Secret Service folks were using extensions and even public phones at the hospital. Its an interesting idea but I would need to see a lot of leg work to be comfortable with it... Perhaps you can reach out to Pat for some details, if true its amazing that nobody has made a point to research the timing in regard to the individual movements of Johnson, Jackie and the body and put this issue to bed up to now. Yup - good ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 21 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said: Gerry - why would Jackie care if Addison’s disease was revealed? While he was alive maybe. Don’t you think she cared who done it, that her husband was gone, that LBJ was calling the shots? LBJ had publicly accused JFK of having Addisons disease before the 1960s election. JFK denied it and said he just had an adrenal deficiency. Mrs Kennedy knew that LBJ would now be proven right and her husband made out to have lied to the American public. Hence the big effort to conceal it. RFK didn't want LBJ to be proven right either hence why he kept interfering in the autopsy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 6 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Looks like we would have to leave that to Pat evaluate then Roger, of course no such call is on the AF1 tape we have now. Certainly not a Johnson call to Parkland telling somebody (who?) there what to do with the president's body. For that matter I'm not sure how the call would have been made given AF1 communications and the fact that the Secret Service folks were using extensions and even public phones at the hospital. Its an interesting idea but I would need to see a lot of leg work to be comfortable with it... Perhaps you can reach out to Pat for some details, if true its amazing that nobody has made a point to research the timing in regard to the individual movements of Johnson, Jackie and the body and put this issue to bed up to now. There may be some confusion. As I recall, Johnson made the "call" and refused to leave without the President's body, but I don't think he made an actual phone call. He simply told the SS he wouldn't leave without Jackie, as he thought it would look bad if he did, and he knew full well she wouldn't leave without JFK's body. In his book, Valenti cuts through the crud and spells out that Johnson was mostly interested in the body, and not Jackie. In any event, it's clear when one reads the statements of those involved that the SS desperately wanted Johnson to get into the air, but that he refused to leave without the body. And...huh...the SS took the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 minutes ago, Gerry Down said: LBJ had publicly accused JFK of having Addisons disease before the 1960s election. JFK denied it and said he just had an adrenal deficiency. Mrs Kennedy knew that LBJ would now be proven right and her husband made out to have lied to the American public. Hence the big effort to conceal it. RFK didn't want LBJ to be proven right either hence why he kept interfering in the autopsy too. I read a book once on the history of Presidential maladies, and it made the point that RFK hadn't lied, technically, as JFK's adrenal insufficiency wasn't technically Addison's, but a related complication. As far as interference at the autopsy... while someone in attendance, not necessarily Burkley, told the doctors to not inspect the neck, there's no evidence anyone told them to not inspect the adrenal glands, which are in the abdomen. So...there's not much support for the family interfering in the autopsy. Of course, that hasn't stopped people from claiming as much. Dr. Werner Spitz, has spread all sorts of nonsense over the years, including that the autopsy doctors mis-remembered the location of the entrance wound because the Kennedy family wouldn't let them cut the hair. But that was just evil nonsense designed to cover up that he and his buddies cut off speculation of a second shooter by pretending the bullet entered near the top of the head, and not 4 inches lower, where it was inspected and observed by numerous witnesses during the autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 25 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: I read a book once on the history of Presidential maladies, and it made the point that RFK hadn't lied, technically, as JFK's adrenal insufficiency wasn't technically Addison's, but a related complication. As far as interference at the autopsy... while someone in attendance, not necessarily Burkley, told the doctors to not inspect the neck, there's no evidence anyone told them to not inspect the adrenal glands, which are in the abdomen. So...there's not much support for the family interfering in the autopsy. Of course, that hasn't stopped people from claiming as much. Dr. Werner Spitz, has spread all sorts of nonsense over the years, including that the autopsy doctors mis-remembered the location of the entrance wound because the Kennedy family wouldn't let them cut the hair. But that was just evil nonsense designed to cover up that he and his buddies cut off speculation of a second shooter by pretending the bullet entered near the top of the head, and not 4 inches lower, where it was inspected and observed by numerous witnesses during the autopsy. I don't disagree. But I think this could be a both/and situation rather than an either/or situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Odisio Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 30 minutes ago, Pat Speer said: There may be some confusion. As I recall, Johnson made the "call" and refused to leave without the President's body, but I don't think he made an actual phone call. He simply told the SS he wouldn't leave without Jackie, as he thought it would look bad if he did, and he knew full well she wouldn't leave without JFK's body. In his book, Valenti cuts through the crud and spells out that Johnson was mostly interested in the body, and not Jackie. In any event, it's clear when one reads the statements of those involved that the SS desperately wanted Johnson to get into the air, but that he refused to leave without the body. And...huh...the SS took the body. It's clear that Johnson didn't want to leave without the body for reasons I've explained. That's one reason he insisted on having a swearing in ceremony on the plane--and wanted Jackie there--when he knew that was window dressing. He was already president. The ceremony meant he had to wait for the judge he handpicked--Sarah Hughes--to arrive, while he waited for the body. It was a nice diversion, and possibly spared him more questions about why the plane wasn't taking off. How about if I rephrase the point. Johnson communicated to the person left in charge back at the hospital that he wanted the body sent to his plane. However that communication was accomplished. He might have done it as Pat suggested or been more direct. He didn't need to convince the SS about what he wanted or give them reasons for doing it. He could give them orders. Bring the body to the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Interesting point: Who did LBJ tell on the Secret Service that he would not leave without the corpse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Interesting point: Who did LBJ tell on the Secret Service that he would not leave without the corpse? It’s interesting to me that 60 years later we still don’t know some crucial and important info that should not have been a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Odisio Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 34 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said: It’s interesting to me that 60 years later we still don’t know some crucial and important info that should not have been a mystery. To be clear I don't think Johnson gave a reason to the secret person he talked to. Just an order. He would have known who to contact. We know the order was carried out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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