Craig Roberts: Kill Zone

[Mike Williams]

Viewing the extant Z-film, it doesn't seem that Kennedy is hit at 190 or even at 225, when he just emerges from behind the Stemmons sign (real or altered). It looks more like both Kennedys were spooked by a near-miss at 190 (perhaps another behind the sign?) and are reacting at 225, just before the obvious throat wound at 226.

What would we expect the reaction of a seated man shot below the right shoulder to be, taking into account that he is an official on parade, concerned with holding himself erect and being reserved in his reactions? Can we compare the expected reaction to the frames where JFK is visible between 190-225?

One thing I can tell you. When you are getting shot at, you really dont give a damn about being reserved.

If you believe the film is a fake, why waste time on it?

[David Andrews]

One thing I can tell you. When you are getting shot at, you really dont give a damn about being reserved.

You have me there, sir. Still, I'm amazed that JFK takes one through the throat and - absent paralysis - doesn't dive for the floorboards. He's conditioned himself, it seems, into maintaining precisely that much dignity. It's the same process that keeps him reserved between 190 and 225, when something disturbs him and Jackie, and at the Houston-Elm turn, if you suspect there was a pavement strike there. To me he looks like he's working hard to keep panicky gestures out of all his startle reactions, including the involuntary fist lift that preluded his slip into unconsciousness.

Edited March 2, 2011 by David Andrews

[Greg Burnham]

I've been shot at. I agree, "the appearance of being reserved" was the last thing on my mind. However, I was shot at during a normal function of my job and, correct me if I'm wrong,

Mike, so were you. JFK had a very different "job" indeed. Due to the uniqueness of the office, the president shouldn't be held to the same expectation of reactive behavior as are others.

The above notwithstanding, JFK was also restricted from normal physical reaction due to the back brace that he wore. Although the restriction it offered is not nearly as severe as some

have claimed, still it explains JFK's "reserved appearance" [read: restricted motion] observed by Andrew.

The official story relies upon the "film" to make its case * . Therefore studying it is not a waste of time at all.

* even as counter-intuitive as that apparently is: "Back... and to the left; Back... and to the left; Back... and to the left..."

Edited March 2, 2011 by Greg Burnham

[Mike Williams]

I've been shot at. I agree, "the appearance of being reserved" was the last thing on my mind. However, I was shot at during a normal function of my job and, correct me if I'm wrong,

Mike, so were you. JFK had a very different "job" indeed. Due to the uniqueness of the office, the president shouldn't be held to the same expectation of reactive behavior as are others.

The above notwithstanding, JFK was also restricted from normal physical reaction due to the back brace that he wore. Although the restriction it offered is not nearly as severe as some

have claimed, still it explains JFK's "reserved appearance" [read: restricted motion] observed by Andrew.

The official story relies upon the "film" to make its case. Therefore studying it is not a waste of time at all. *

* even as counter-intuitive as that apparently is: "Back... and to the left; Back... and to the left; Back... and to the left..."

Greg,

There is even one more you missed. He may well have not even known he was being shot at.

How many times, in your Law Enforcement days did you hear someone say they never even heard the gun go off?

Its simple Central Nervous System overload. It just shuts down.

Ive experienced this and can tell you, at least from my point of view, it does happen.

Im sure he knew something struck him, but heck, for all he knew it could have been a rock that had been thrown.

You also make an excellent point on viewing the film even if you believe it is fake, it is the basis of the official story. Frankly I had not thought about that.

I do not know if we could contribute his reactions based on his Position as President, after all he was a war veteran, and those grains run pretty deep.

I know there are times I am still pretty jumpy around loud bangs and such.

Just a thought.

Glad to see you around Greg, we dont always see eye to eye, but is sure good to see you none the less.

Mike

[Greg Burnham]

Mike,

It's good to be seen.

I'm not being trite either. I really mean, "It's good to be seen..." because there have been times when that wasn't always guaranteed...if you get my drift.

I agree 100% that it is very possible he was not aware shots were being fired. The majority, including Secret Service and Dallas PD, never claimed they were

aware of that either. Most said they thought it was fire crackers and/or motorcycle backfires--at least at first. I also agree that it's very possible that there

was a general bewilderment on JFK's part even after he was hit. It's very common.

My partner was murdered while he was off duty because he walked into a drug deal going down in a public restroom. Instead of leaving and calling it in, he

chose to "badge" the perps and hopefully detain them until the proprietor of the business could call 911 and PD could arrive. Poor judgment. However, the

coroner determined that even after he had been shot in the throat at point blank range, he managed to break the thumb on the shooting hand of his assailant

and secure possession of the weapon before dying. He was still clutching the murder weapon that was used against him when his body was found.

But, I digress. Your point is well taken.

[Mike Williams]

Mike,

It's good to be seen.

I'm not being trite either. I really mean, "It's good to be seen..." because there have been times when that wasn't always guaranteed...if you get my drift.

I agree 100% that it is very possible he was not aware shots were being fired. The majority, including Secret Service and Dallas PD, never claimed they were

aware of that either. Most said they thought it was fire crackers and/or motorcycle backfires--at least at first. I also agree that it's very possible that there

was a general bewilderment on JFK's part even after he was hit. It's very common.

My partner was murdered while he was off duty because he walked into a drug deal going down in a public restroom. Instead of leaving and calling it in, he

chose to "badge" the perps and hopefully detain them until the proprietor of the business could call 911 and PD could arrive. Poor judgment. However, the

coroner determined that even after he had been shot in the throat at point blank range, he managed to break the thumb on the shooting hand of his assailant

and secure possession of the weapon before dying. He was still clutching the murder weapon that was used against him when his body was found.

But, I digress. Your point is well taken.

I do agree, it is good to be seen.

I am sorry to hear that about your partner. I also know that feeling all to well. On my end, I was there, and could not do a damn thing to help. But that's mine to live with.

Mike

[Greg Burnham]

Give yourself a break, my friend. Survivor's guilt serves no purpose.

[Mike Williams]

Give yourself a break, my friend. Survivor's guilt serves no purpose.

Thanks man, that means a lot coming from someone who would understand.

[David Andrews]

Well, here's a question, though. If Kennedy is hit in the shoulder prior to the throat wound at Z-226, do we see anything in Zapruder that fits the physical reaction to that wound that we might expect? I don't see it, myself. Not even at Z-225, emerging from behind the sign.

I'm thinking of the agent or other rider on the Queen Mary who reported that he saw the first hit and that it was in the shoulder. (I'll look for this quotation and its origin tonight after work.)

Edited March 2, 2011 by David Andrews

[Mike Rago]

I would like to bump this thread. I think Mr. Roberts analysis of possible sniper locations is consistent with the photographic evidence. Meaning that I believe the photographic evidence supports a sniper on the roof of either the Criminal Courts or Criminal Records building and on the Knoll(but in front of the fence on the Knoll not behind it.)

I have never been a sniper but I would think that the multiple sniper scenario makes a lot of sense. Why? I doubt that more than one shot was taken from any one location EXCEPT the patsy location, ie the TSBD. You do not want a sniper to take multiple shots from the same location. Instead you have multiple snipers taking a single shot from multiple locations. (Except the for the patsy location)

Multiple snipers increases the probability of success and provides the opportunity for simultaneous shots.

I would actually like to hear Mr. Roberts opinion of simultaneous shots in regards to his sniper training.

The only location from which more than one shot originated that day(if indeed any shots originated from that location) was the TSBD.

The Yellow Mist...

http://educationforu...45

Edited November 22, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Steven Kossor]

I recently went to Dealey Plaza and shot some video from the various vantage points of possible shooters. The location along the picket fence that offers the best line of sight seemed to be a point about 40 feet away from the corner of the fence nearest to Zappy's position. I stood on Zappy's pedestal and shot video of the limo's path and realized that in order to keep the limo in the center of the frame, the camera had to be tilted downward as the limo approached while panning to the right, and that it had to be tilted upward to catch the departing limo. Zappy's film seems to have been shot from a tripod, just panning left to right (hence he almost missed the head shot entirely). I don't know how the Zfilm footage of the killing was shot, but it's pretty clear to me that there were constraints on the filmmaker that almost prevented capturing it completely and certainly obscured some key aspects like the side of the vehicle that might have disclosed its speed and whether or not the wheels stopped turning at any time.

The best line of sight for a shot to the head from the front seemed to be through the first slot in the overpass wall nearest to the picket fence on the Knoll with the shooter in a prone position. There is a sewer drain there that could afford a getaway route, or a convenient place to stash the murder weapon for retrieval later. There are no openings facing Houston street from either of the North or South sewer drain positions, so nobody could have shot from "inside" the sewers.

The best line of sight for a shot to the throat (which would also account for the hole relatively low in the windshield where it appears to be in the Zfilm and in other photos of the limo in the White House garage -- two photos shown in the segment called The Smoking Guns from The Men Who Killed Kennedy) would be from the bed of a pickup truck parked on Commerce Street just as it exited from under the Overpass. Traffic was stopped on Commerce during the killing, so the escape route could be just driving the shooter away. There is a photo of a man in just such a pickup truck that has been obliterated from the Zfilm.

The bullet scar on the South manhole cement cover lines up perfectly with the top left corner of the Dallas Records building. I stood at the Westernmost end of the scar and panned up parallel to it. The corner of the Records building comes into view following that line of sight. That pretty much sums it up for me that at least one shot came from the top of that building.

I'm not a sniper, but I've shot a few rifles over the years and know that a bullet striking concrete that leaves a 1/4 inch-deep scar running about 1.5 inches had to have been fired from a pretty steep angle and that it couldn't have been a jacketed round to have dug the little trench (as opposed to fracturing the concrete altogether).

The proposition that the shot that struck the curb near Tague came from the DSBD building, that it hit the traffic light pole and fragmented and then careened into the curb (proposed by Holland, I believe), is not viable. It had to have come from up high, probably a second shot from the Records building with the gunsight having become misaligned and resulted in the scar on the concrete sewer cover, and a second shot from the same misaligned gunsight hitting the curb near Tague.

In driving down Elm Street, the positions of the X marks painted on the roadway (corresponding to the Z film for the throat wound and the head wound) don't seem to have been placed accurately. They may match the Zfilm, but they don't match the best lines of sight for a shooter.

Dealey Plaza seems to have been turned into a "diorama" manufactured to correspond with the Zfilm, rather than real possibilities of the events that day. My sense in driving down into Dealey Plaza was that it's a bowl, and that truth and reality float somewhere above it, perhaps on the level of Houston Street, but certainly not down in the Kill Zone.

[Bernice Moore]

Steve quote ''The best line of sight for a shot to the throat (which would also account for the hole relatively low in the windshield where it appears to be in the Zfilm and in other photos of the limo in the White House garage -- two photos shown in the segment called The Smoking Guns from The Men Who Killed Kennedy) would be from the bed of a pickup truck parked on Commerce Street just as it exited from under the Overpass. Traffic was stopped on Commerce during the killing, so the escape route could be just driving the shooter away. There is a photo of a man in just such a pickup truck that has been obliterated from the Zfilm''

Steve here is a small crop from the Cancellare photo, that Jack White made for us, years ago, showing the pick-up truck man..fyi...b

Edited November 23, 2012 by Bernice Moore

[Mike Rago]

(bernice picture)

(Credit Cancellare - Robin Unger)

The Cancellare picture was taken about 30 seconds after the last head shot or about 20 seconds after Zapruder stopped filming. I do not think the pickup truck with the man is in the Zapruder film.

After looking at the ZFilm I guess it could be this pickup truck.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Mike Rago

[Bernice Moore]

Steve this crop may be clearer , also a comp.i believe it was from Lee Forman a few years back......b

[Steven Kossor]

Thanks for the pictures, Bernice. It's pretty clear that the guy in the back of the pickup truck was "erased" from the Zfilm. The obvious question is "Why?" Looking forward to more discussion and thought about this. Best wishes always.