PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I don't see anyone rising up. You certainly are not talking about this person standing on the steps - are you?

 

Dear William,

Yes, I most certainly am.

In the GIF, below, I believe we get a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt on the left side, and we can make out some of his facial features, too.  

--  Tommy

Edited February 11, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear William,

Yes, I most certainly am.

In the GIF, below, I believe we get a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt on the left side, and we can make out some ff his facial features, too.  

--  Tommy

Tommy,

I've extracted some frames from the Darnell clip showing the guy on the steps that might be Lovelady.

Sadly, after zooming in, cropping, and uploading the frames, the facial features are washed out. (They never were clear... just shades of dots for eyes.) But other things can be seen.

I've started a thread for these frames:

Did Billy Lovelady remain on the TSBD steps after Officer Baker's arrival?

(BTW your PM inbox may be full.)

Edited February 11, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

15 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Good stuff. I can also see Maddie Reese quite well in the Darnell clip. I'm struggling to pinpoint Ruth Dean in the Darnell clip. Any help much appreciated.

Regards

 

6 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

On the same step next to Maddie Reese on her right

Thanks Bart for getting back. Much appreciated.

I can see no one on the same step next to Maddie Reese on her right.

The image you posted below 'Meanwhile' in your comment just prior to the one I have quoted here has a 'red outline' positing the position of a figure  - and that is certainly 'on her right', however it appears to be on a lower step than Maddie Reese.

From that individual frame of the Darnell clip, it does very much look like the foot of a woman there, however, taken in to context with the surrounding frames of the Darnell clip, when slowed down, it shows (quite clearly imo) that what looks like a 'foot' in that one individual frame, is nothing more than sunlight hitting the step.

The 'red outline' in the individual frame, thus, can't be Ruth Dean a person at all because there is no one there.

With regards to Ruth Dean; as noted from the Weigmann clip and other photographs on that day, we know that she was wearing black. With that in mind I can really only see two possible candidates in the Darnell clip. 1) The 'all black' person who seems to be one step lower and facing towards the 'white head' person whose head is 'directly' below Prayer Man's right elbow. OR 2) the 'black clothed' person standing just off the steps (in front of 'all white' person who is ascending the steps).

*There remains of course the possibility that Ruth Dean isn't viewable in the Darnell clip...

One other bit of the Darnell clip I can't quite get my head around is the area to Maddie Reese's left and below Frazier, any thoughts on that much appreciated.

Regards

 

[Guest]

I should have said on the right and to Reese's left.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

My belief based on the evidence as I see it. Maybe who ever over contrasted the shadow in the image with the red outline around what they me wish to be a person may see it differently.  

So that bushy hair is just a figment of my imagination then.....

 

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 Around three minutes was the total time they made their trip to the Island - then to the RR Yard - and then back to the TSBD . 

Believe what you want. But for the sake of others reading this, don't confuse the "3 minutes." Shelley and Lovelady did indeed testify that they stayed at the steps for 3 minutes after the shooting. They didn't say the trip to the RR yard and back took 3 minutes.

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.

 

According to Shelley - and while I believe he was using a figure of speech ... Shelley said he and Lovelady left the stairs around a minute after the shots were fired. I don't think anyone knows the precise second when Patrolman Baker started his run, but even if it was 30+ seconds, then it still matches what Shelley said - " I didn't do anything for a minute" before he left the stairs.

Even Lovelady said when he and Shelley left the steps that they went to the Island across the street -

Lovelady:  " we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street "

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

The Darnell film matches what Shelley says and the three minutes of standing on the steps by Lovelady does not fit what Shelley said or what Kamp has demonstrated to me that Shelley and Lovelady are seen walking in the Elm Street extension.

 

Lovelady appears to still be there. Just in front of Prayer Man.

Your reliance that the blurred image of the man seen on the stairs in Darnell's film leaves a lot to be desired in my view.

 

What makes you think I'm saying Lovelady sat down on the steps? He is standing.

My apologies as it is Graves who says he see's Lovelady rising up from a sitting position. In his case the image is so bad that he cannot even tell if the person is rising or already standing.  

On 2/9/2017 at 2:10 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Thanks, Alistair.

By golly, I do believe that's Lovelady rising up on the steps below Prayer Person.

Maybe.

--  Tommy

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Alistair Briggs]

17 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

I should have said on the right and to Reese's left.

Cheers for the clarification Bart. I see Dean's position now.

Moving on to the next bit...

... the two woman standing on the lower steps to the right (as we see it) of Ruth Dean.

I have those two marked down as Avery Davis and Judith McCully.

*I understand that in a FBI Report, 11/24/63 it is stated that McCully was on the 4th floor at the time of the shooting, but that seems to be a 'simple error' on the part of who wrote the report (note: it doesn't say that McCully said she was on the 4th floor), subsequent to that there is a Dallas Police Department Report, 2/18/64 where it is stated that she and Mrs. Avery Davis were standing on the front steps. Also there is her  Statement to FBI, 3/19/64 in which she 'directly' says " I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mrs. Charles Davis ". Avery Davis said she " took up a position on one of the lower steps of the building entrance.… Judy McCully … was standing by me ".

All things considered I feel it is fair to say that both Davis and McCully were on the steps together at the time and were on one of the 'lower steps'. That is why I think the two woman on the lower steps (to the right as we look at it of Ruth Dean's position) are Davis and McCully.

Regards

[Bill Miller]

59 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

So that bushy hair is just a figment of my imagination then.....

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

42 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.

According to Shelley - and while I believe he was using a figure of speech ... Shelley said he and Lovelady left the stairs around a minute after the shots were fired.

BS!

Shelley "didn't do anything for a minute." That just means he didn't do anything for a while.

Here is what Shelley really said about leaving the steps:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

And Lovelady testified the same.

[Bill Miller]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

BS!

Shelley "didn't do anything for a minute." That just means he didn't do anything for a while.

Here is what Shelley really said about leaving the steps:

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

And Lovelady testified the same.

You have Shelley saying they remained on the steps for three minutes and then the trip to the Island - the walk to the RR Yard - and the take their time description of walking back to the Depository. That makes around 6 minutes from the time they heard the shots.  What ever you say.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

The Darnell film matches what Shelley says ....

The only thing that matches what Shelley said are two guys walking down the extension. Everything else is different.

and the three minutes of standing on the steps by Lovelady does not fit what Shelley said.

On the contrary, it's precisely what Shelley said.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

You have Shelley saying they remained on the steps for three minutes and then the trip to the Island - the walk to the RR Yard - and the take their time description of walking back to the Depository. That makes around 6 minutes from the time they heard the shots.  What ever you say.

What's so funny about that?

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What's so funny about that?

I think the three minute timing estimate is wacked based on the Couch/Darnell films.

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[David Josephs]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

 

 

Bill - maybe help me out here...

Isn't Lovelady standing on the right side of the steps?  Isn't that woman with the bushy hair down one step from ovelady the same in B&W as in color?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. Shelley is the man in the suit behind Lovelady in Altgens...  the way Wesley puts it, Lovelady was in the location below, a few steps down and over by the wall, yet in some images he is in the exact spot Wesley claims...  

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...

Well this is odd. Over the last year, every video shown to me of Lovelady standing on the steps has shown him on the west half of the stairway. (The only exception being the color film with Lovelady smoking a cigarette. Which is from some time after the assassination.)

Quote

"Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also."

Which wall? East or west?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Sandy Larsen