Jump to content
The Education Forum

PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

The Darnell film matches what Shelley says ....

The only thing that matches what Shelley said are two guys walking down the extension. Everything else is different.

and the three minutes of standing on the steps by Lovelady does not fit what Shelley said.

On the contrary, it's precisely what Shelley said.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

9 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

You have Shelley saying they remained on the steps for three minutes and then the trip to the Island - the walk to the RR Yard - and the take their time description of walking back to the Depository. That makes around 6 minutes from the time they heard the shots.  What ever you say.

60.gif

What's so funny about that?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

877cf1ad-f6e9-4b64-bf00-b164b7297fe4_zps anigif_shadow_shifting_2_zpsin5oiygz.gif

Human-Hair-PM_kamp.jpg

 

 

Bill - maybe help me out here...

Isn't Lovelady standing on the right side of the steps?  Isn't that woman with the bushy hair down one step from ovelady the same in B&W as in color?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. Shelley is the man in the suit behind Lovelady in Altgens...  the way Wesley puts it, Lovelady was in the location below, a few steps down and over by the wall, yet in some images he is in the exact spot Wesley claims...  

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

Lovelady on other side of steps.jpg

Where is Lovelady and Wesley.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...

Well this is odd. Over the last year, every video shown to me of Lovelady standing on the steps has shown him on the west half of the stairway. (The only exception being the color film with Lovelady smoking a cigarette. Which is from some time after the assassination.)

Quote

"Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also."

Which wall? East or west?

Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Bill - maybe help me out here...

Isn't Lovelady standing on the right side of the steps?  Isn't that woman with the bushy hair down one step from ovelady the same in B&W as in color?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. Shelley is the man in the suit behind Lovelady in Altgens...  the way Wesley puts it, Lovelady was in the location below, a few steps down and over by the wall, yet in some images he is in the exact spot Wesley claims...  

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

David, I might be able to help you out on this (I hope so at least. lol) ;)

(NB: West side of the steps is the left as we look at it, and East side is to the right as we look at it)

At the time of the shots Lovelady's position was on the 'West' half of the steps. The railing down the middle would be to his left hand side, the 'west' wall would be to his right hand side...

16832.jpg

 

F = Lovelady
B = Williams
E = Shelley
A = Molina
(NB: Frazier not visible in wiegman frame or Altgens 6)

Frame from Darnell - taken approx 30 seconds later.

20130908-003704.jpg

Frazier now viewable (standing centre top), to his left (our right as we look at it) is Williams and to his left (right as we look at it) and down a bit is Molina (who hasn't really changed position from the Wiegman frame taken aprrox 30 seconds earlier.

 

Lovelady on other side of steps.jpg

That's not Lovelady that's Molina...

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Frazier there is talking about his position at the time of the shots, not at the time of the Darnell clip (30 seconds later), by the time of the Darnell clip not only has Frazier become visible but both Shelley and Lovelady have also moved from where they can be seen in the Wiegman clip (time of shots).

As to where Lovelady and Shelley are at the time of the Darnell frame? Either both have left the steps (are the two seen 'walking' away in Darnell/Couch sync) OR Lovelady is still seen in the Darnell frame (in the position of 'beneath Prayer Man's right elbow')

Regards
 

 

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
Clarifying that weigman clip is relatively synonymous with time of shots.
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear William,

Yes, I most certainly am.

In the GIF, below, I believe we get a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt on the left side, and we can make out some of his facial features, too.  

Prayermangif3.gif

--  Tommy :sun

At no time do I see this person rise from anything. He is standing and I never see anything about his clothing that is white.

By the way - where is Shelley???

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

877cf1ad-f6e9-4b64-bf00-b164b7297fe4_zps anigif_shadow_shifting_2_zpsin5oiygz.gif

Human-Hair-PM_kamp.jpg

 

 

 

Ah I get it, that black bushy hair is a figment of my imagination then, that bushy blob you cannot even ignore in your butchered versions.

Oh well, let's agree to disagree.

 

Meanwhile regarding Lovelady's HSCA testimony.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

He did not go back into the TSBD 20-25 mins after the shooting, which begs the question did he actually re-enter with Shelley through a side entrance?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

Lovelady on other side of steps.jpg

 

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below)

 

I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone  was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs .................

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

 

Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Ah I get it, that black bushy hair is a figment of my imagination then, that bushy blob you cannot even ignore in your butchered versions.

Exactly ... the shadow being cast from the woman in the white coat can be seen morphing as she climbs the stairs. Her shadow can be seen in the two frames below along with the landing'.

In my world it is impossible to see through real people. I guess in your world all is needed is to wait for the right frame to come along where the shadows being cast morph together and then bump up the contrast  so to make them look like a portion of someone figure.

anigif_A_B.gif

Human-Hair-PM_kamp.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller
Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Meanwhile regarding Lovelady's HSCA testimony.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

He did not go back into the TSBD 20-25 mins after the shooting, which begs the question did he actually re-enter with Shelley through a side entrance?

 

 

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

That is correct Alistair. That is where we seem him in latter footage of the stairs and  entrance to the TSBD.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below)

 

I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone  was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs .................

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

 

Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

OK Bill,

So Lovelady makes his way across the landing?

When does he move from the Eastern corner behind the man in blue as we see in the top frame capture... to the center of the stairway as the motorcade passes with PM seen in the recesses of the western corner...

So, in Altgens, is he where we see him in the top image or further over to the west?

Hughes image of Lovelady or Oswald in West corner with PM overlay.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

lovelady-in-hughes-and-wiegmann.jpg

(As we look at the image...)

Left hand side: Frame from Hughes film
Right hand side: Frame from Weigman film

Difference in time between the two frames is approx. 4 seconds.

In that time, it looks like Lovelady has taken a couple of steps to his left and stepped (backwards) up a step.
*Regardless of 'exact' course of movement, 4 seconds is more than enough time for Lovelady to move from point A (Hughes frame) to point B (Weigman frame).

P.S. Altgens 6 is relatively time wise synonymous with the Frame from Weigman.
 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...