PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Bill - maybe help me out here...

Isn't Lovelady standing on the right side of the steps?  Isn't that woman with the bushy hair down one step from ovelady the same in B&W as in color?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Mr. Shelley is the man in the suit behind Lovelady in Altgens...  the way Wesley puts it, Lovelady was in the location below, a few steps down and over by the wall, yet in some images he is in the exact spot Wesley claims...  

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

David, I might be able to help you out on this (I hope so at least. lol)

(NB: West side of the steps is the left as we look at it, and East side is to the right as we look at it)

At the time of the shots Lovelady's position was on the 'West' half of the steps. The railing down the middle would be to his left hand side, the 'west' wall would be to his right hand side...

 

F = Lovelady
B = Williams
E = Shelley
A = Molina
(NB: Frazier not visible in wiegman frame or Altgens 6)

Frame from Darnell - taken approx 30 seconds later.

Frazier now viewable (standing centre top), to his left (our right as we look at it) is Williams and to his left (right as we look at it) and down a bit is Molina (who hasn't really changed position from the Wiegman frame taken aprrox 30 seconds earlier.

 

That's not Lovelady that's Molina...

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

Frazier there is talking about his position at the time of the shots, not at the time of the Darnell clip (30 seconds later), by the time of the Darnell clip not only has Frazier become visible but both Shelley and Lovelady have also moved from where they can be seen in the Wiegman clip (time of shots).

As to where Lovelady and Shelley are at the time of the Darnell frame? Either both have left the steps (are the two seen 'walking' away in Darnell/Couch sync) OR Lovelady is still seen in the Darnell frame (in the position of 'beneath Prayer Man's right elbow')

Regards
 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Alistair Briggs
Clarifying that weigman clip is relatively synonymous with time of shots.

[Bill Miller]

10 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear William,

Yes, I most certainly am.

In the GIF, below, I believe we get a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt on the left side, and we can make out some of his facial features, too.  

--  Tommy

At no time do I see this person rise from anything. He is standing and I never see anything about his clothing that is white.

By the way - where is Shelley???

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

If you are talking about the area within the red outline, then absolutely!  You outlined several steps that are visible before someone bumped up the contrast and hid them while creating an illusion someone was standing there.

 

 

 

Ah I get it, that black bushy hair is a figment of my imagination then, that bushy blob you cannot even ignore in your butchered versions.

Oh well, let's agree to disagree.

 

Meanwhile regarding Lovelady's HSCA testimony.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

He did not go back into the TSBD 20-25 mins after the shooting, which begs the question did he actually re-enter with Shelley through a side entrance?

 

 

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also

I can't imagine how Lovelady gets to the West side of the entrance if he did all those things with Shelley...  

??

 

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below)

 

I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone  was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs .................

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

 

Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Ah I get it, that black bushy hair is a figment of my imagination then, that bushy blob you cannot even ignore in your butchered versions.

Exactly ... the shadow being cast from the woman in the white coat can be seen morphing as she climbs the stairs. Her shadow can be seen in the two frames below along with the landing'.

In my world it is impossible to see through real people. I guess in your world all is needed is to wait for the right frame to come along where the shadows being cast morph together and then bump up the contrast  so to make them look like a portion of someone figure.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Alistair Briggs]

54 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Meanwhile regarding Lovelady's HSCA testimony.

http://www.prayer-man.com/billy-lovelady-hsca-interview/

He did not go back into the TSBD 20-25 mins after the shooting, which begs the question did he actually re-enter with Shelley through a side entrance?

 

 

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

 

[Bill Miller]

43 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Lovelady entered the building twice! Once via the back and once via the front...

Lovelady's journey: On steps at front of building (with Shelley) -  leaves steps (with Shelley) - journeys round the back (with Shelley) - enters the building from the back (with Shelley) - is inside the building (separates from Shelley) - goes out through the front door - on steps at front of building (captured in Hughes film) - re-enters building via the front.

That is correct Alistair. That is where we seem him in latter footage of the stairs and  entrance to the TSBD.

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

That is not Lovelady in the image you previously posted. Lovelady as clearly seen in the Hughes film and in Altgens photo shows him on the west side of the stairs - down and to the right of Frazier. (see below)

 

I found this interesting when Frazier was asked if he went anywhere after hearing the shots being fired .... and Buell mentioned that a Police Officer could have came past him and he not seen it because of the way he was turned and with he talking to someone. Have wonder if that someone  was the Prayer-Man. And while Frazier said he stayed there for several minutes - he mentioned Shelley and Lovelady leaving the stairs .................

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?
Mr. BALL - A police officer.
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

 

Later Mr. Ball asked a question that you touched on in your previous response.

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also.

We know where Lovelady was standing during the parade before JFK turned onto Elm Street and during the shooting as Billy is seen in the Hughes film and in Altgen's photo by the west wall.

OK Bill,

So Lovelady makes his way across the landing?

When does he move from the Eastern corner behind the man in blue as we see in the top frame capture... to the center of the stairway as the motorcade passes with PM seen in the recesses of the western corner...

So, in Altgens, is he where we see him in the top image or further over to the west?

[Alistair Briggs]

As point of reference - the 'man in blue' isn't a man at all (and isn't on the steps).

It is a girl called Toni Glover who was standing on a pedestal.

Here she is 'recreating' it many years later: (from Robin Unger's collection)

(More information can be found in the thread linked HERE)

[Alistair Briggs]

(As we look at the image...)

Left hand side: Frame from Hughes film
Right hand side: Frame from Weigman film

Difference in time between the two frames is approx. 4 seconds.

In that time, it looks like Lovelady has taken a couple of steps to his left and stepped (backwards) up a step.
*Regardless of 'exact' course of movement, 4 seconds is more than enough time for Lovelady to move from point A (Hughes frame) to point B (Weigman frame).

P.S. Altgens 6 is relatively time wise synonymous with the Frame from Weigman.
 

 

 

[Bill Miller]

 

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

(As we look at the image...)

Left hand side: Frame from Hughes film
Right hand side: Frame from Weigman film

 

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it. 

There is a shade line that crosses the landing where Frazier is standing. Note his torso is sunlit while his head is not.

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Alistair Briggs]

26 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

 

I believe if someone found a good full frame view and considered the line of sight that Lovelady is being viewed - they would find that Lovelady was standing near the handrail and was still on the west (knoll) side of it.

In furtherance...

...for illustration purposes only...

... here is a clear photo of the TSBD entrance.

and here is the same image reversed (for illustration purposes only).

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, the direction Frazier is saying that "Billy and them" walked was toward the President's limousine. In other words, over to the concrete island.

From Frazier's testimony, it sounds like the reason they went there was to get a view of the limousine. They could no longer see the limo from the steps because the view was blocked by spectators. Going to that area would allow them to sidestep the spectators and hopefully again see the limo.

Mr. BALL - Were you able to see the President, could you still see the President's car when you heard the first sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the sound?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was.
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.
 

Edited February 12, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Ray Mitcham]

I agree with Bill. Don't believe it is a woman's foot, but it's a shadow of a person falling on the steps.

[Sandy Larsen]

50 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

I agree with Bill. Don't believe it is a woman's foot, but it's a shadow of a person falling on the steps.

I also agree with Bill.