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Jim Hargrove

Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

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2 hours ago, Mark Lawson said:

It is interesting that Tatum reported: "Both the police car and the young man were heading east [emphasis added] on Tenth Street...."  That would of course be in the opposite direction of the Texas Theater.

I seem to recall that another witness also reported the "Oswald" character to be headed east at the time he was approached by Tippit.  ML

This is simply not a true account of from where the man was coming...  yet at some p[oint the man turns back towards the east and walks away from Tippit's car...  Given Tippit could have stopped anywhere... is it pure coincidence he's on the same street where he's known as "Friendly" so many miles from his patrol area?  The same driveway where his mistress lives?

Tatum is also the only one to talk about the shot to the head... shot #4.  how anyone else there misses this is beyond me.

The real timing problem they do not discuss is getting Oswald from 1026 Beckley to 404 E 10th in 5 minutes... can't be done.
Or countering Butch Burroughs selling Oswald popcorn at his theater prior to 1:10...

Tatum does not see the 2 men until the shooter is at the car... by then he was walking east but as Markham said, the police car caught up to him as IT traveled East...

Scoggins tells us from which direction the man was coming.  From all telling of it... it seems this person was walking WEST in from DENVER St.

S. Ewing is even a few streets further EAST than Denver/Patton.... LEE was seen at this barber show virtually around the corner from RUBY and down the street from Harry & Kay Olsen (ex Ruby Stripper and DPD cop with injured leg)  

The FBI tries to make it sound like 10th and S Ewing is "some distance" and reiterates how Oswald lived on BECKLEY... what they don't say is that RUBY lived at 223 S Ewing....

1736576399_15to20minwalkfromRubyto10thandPatton.thumb.jpg.324889044db237fb3e2f4ea957c30bde.jpg

nov_22-67.thumb.jpg.542f0d168b9b48787168e4e5421dd5c7.jpg

 

Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him. 

1641490562_ScoggginsAffidavitDPD-ManwaswalkingWESTandstoppedwhenTippitstartedtalking.thumb.jpg.bd7765dc0adc4f9efb5886de382f2b09.jpg

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6 hours ago, Mark Lawson said:

It is interesting that Tatum reported: "Both the police car and the young man were heading east [emphasis added] on Tenth Street...."  That would of course be in the opposite direction of the Texas Theater.

I seem to recall that another witness also reported the "Oswald" character to be headed east at the time he was approached by Tippit.  ML

The directions get a little obtuse because Tatum was in a moving car driving past the site of the murder, but toward the end of his short affidavit (just before the Q&A) Tatum made it clear when he said that he saw this Oswald “run south on Patton toward Jefferson.”   From the intersection of Patton and Jefferson, Jefferson goes directly to the Texas Theatre.  In other words, this Oswald was beginning to take the most direct route possible to the theater. Take a look at the route on Google Maps if this isn’t clear.

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If there's a police car (Kroy and Westbrook?) pulled up at the middle of the alley that Tippit pulled up to block the mouth of in order to intercept "Oswald," how did the cops in the alley car know to pull in there?

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2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

If there's a police car (Kroy and Westbrook?) pulled up at the middle of the alley that Tippit pulled up to block the mouth of in order to intercept "Oswald," how did the cops in the alley car know to pull in there?

If it was Westbrook, in his capacity as Personnel Director as well as his years experience in other capacities, might he have known the location of Tippit's (speculated) girlfriend's house?  I.E. That driveway?   Given other possible contacts within the ranks???   All just pure speculation, just another parlor game.  Not. 

Edited by Ron Bulman

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9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

If it was Westbrook, in his capacity as Personnel Director as well as his years experience in other capacities, might he have known the location of Tippit's (speculated) girlfriend's house?  I.E. That driveway?   Given other possible contacts within the ranks???   All just pure speculation, just another parlor game.  Not. 

Could two cars have been trailing Oswald, at walking speed, from a block away, and one gone off and around the block, into the alley?

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David and Ron,

We think the whole Tippit scenario was a set-up to enrage the Dallas police about “Oswald” and lead them to the Texas Theatre, where Harvey Oswald was already inside.  It isn’t normal to block a driveway with a car, even a police squad car, and so it seems a fair enough assumption that Westbrook instructed Tippit to park there in anticipation of a meeting between the two men (three if you count Croy) at the scene.  From that location, Tippit could immediately see Westbrook's car move into the narrow space between the two houses, but not many others could.

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

David and Ron,

We think the whole Tippit scenario was a set-up to enrage the Dallas police about “Oswald” and lead them to the Texas Theatre, where Harvey Oswald was already inside.  It isn’t normal to block a driveway with a car, even a police squad car, and so it seems a fair enough assumption that Westbrook instructed Tippit to park there in anticipation of a meeting between the two men (three if you count Croy) at the scene.  From that location, Tippit could immediately see Westbrook's car move into the narrow space between the two houses, but not many others could.

What witnesses do we trust to have been correct in saying was Oswald walking on Tenth St., from the corner and toward the alley?  As opposed to having exited the cop car in the alley and then being cut off by Tippit?

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There is no evidence that the Tenth & Patton Oswald (LEE) exited either police car.  Anyone interested in examining the evidence for the involvement of LEE Oswald, Westbrook, and Reserve Sgt. Croy in the murder of J.D. Tippit can read John’s new write-up here:

THE MURDER OF J.D. TIPPIT

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On 10/14/2018 at 9:16 AM, Gene Kelly said:

 

On 10/14/2018 at 9:16 AM, Gene Kelly said:
Tom, Nice to see you back.

Gene,
Thanks for the thorough reply, and of course for your "welcome back" to the forum. Sorry for my slow response - I didn't scroll back far enough to find your post.

Id only be speculating if I said that Westbrook had personal reasons for using Tippit.
Yes, unfortunately, for now anyway, all we can do is speculate...

Sylvia Meagher described Tippit as "unknown and unknowable".   It seems that Westbrook has a similar barrier constructed around his Character and background. When McBride looked at Tippit's DPD files, the further he perused Tippit’s personnel file, the more sparse the material became – the opposite of what you would expect - suggesting that it was sanitized. 
A strong suggestion indeed. It would be difficult to claim that marksmanship records for example were removed to 'protect' JDT's reputation for his family's sake. Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison of JDT's record with someone similar to determine which records were removed? The records of other officers that have been parsed in the same manner would strongly indicate an involvement. Perhaps the other officer delayed by a traffic accident while enroute to the scene is a likely candidate?

The only question is whether that death was supposed to happen in the theater (by the police), some other location (e.g. on the way to Cuba) or in police custody at the Police and Courts Building.
IMO, all of the above were planned to some degree. One would be primary, and the others were backup contingency plans. I have to wonder if John Martino was correct when he stated that Tippit's murder disrupted the original plan, or he simply was unaware of this aspect of the plan. Was the JDT chapter inserted into the plot by the DPD? Speculation of course, but a highly simplified version would be that DPD didn't want LHO to escape from Dallas enroute to Cuba. DPD would not only be highly criticized for this failure to apprehend, but subject to revealing scrutiny. 

"It is worth noting that the humble Oak Cliff rib joint where he worked, Austin’s Barbecue, ... but that it was run by a Bircher and was a prominent meeting place for corrupt “police characters,” mobsters, and leading far-right elements in the “City of Hate.”
[Greg] Lowrey said of Tippit, “I think he got himself involved with some real dangerous people in circumstances I don’t understand. I can’t even explain it. He might have had some dangerous knowledge.” Lowrey also speculated that Tippit may have “blundered” into that knowledge."

This seems to be a highly likely explanation. The 'Austin's BBQ' venue fits all aspects of the above conjecture. And/or if he had been solicited as a shooter candidate, numerous situations come to mind that would make him a danger to secrecy and thus a desirable sacrificial 'lamb.'

... while struggling to pay the mortgages on two houses.
Two mortgages? His own home and... his parents house? Or the oft-mentioned girlfriend? I'm gonna have to find McBride's book...

Thanks again Gene, for the detailed reply.

Tom

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18 hours ago, Tom Neal said:

"It is worth noting that the humble Oak Cliff rib joint where he worked, Austin’s Barbecue, ... but that it was run by a Bircher and was a prominent meeting place for corrupt “police characters,” mobsters, and leading far-right elements in the “City of Hate.”
[Greg] Lowrey said of Tippit, “I think he got himself involved with some real dangerous people in circumstances I don’t understand. I can’t even explain it. He might have had some dangerous knowledge.” Lowrey also speculated that Tippit may have “blundered” into that knowledge."

This seems to be a highly likely explanation. The 'Austin's BBQ' venue fits all aspects of the above conjecture. And/or if he had been solicited as a shooter candidate, numerous situations come to mind that would make him a danger to secrecy and thus a desirable sacrificial 'lamb.'

 

Tom,

Minutes after the assassination of JFK, according to Sgt. Kenneth Croy, he asked other Dallas cops at  the downtown courthouse if they needed his help, and, again according to Croy, they said that his help wasn’t needed (even though at nearly precisely the same time, off-duty Dallas cops were being called in to start covering the case).  Once more according to Croy, at that fateful time he decided to have lunch at Austin’s Barbecue with his estranged wife.  Croy was a 12-year veteran of the DPD.

Capt. W.R. Westbrook had an equally difficult time explaining his whereabouts in the minutes after the assassination.  Do you believe Croy spent time immediately after the assassination of JFK with his estranged wife at Austin’s Barbecue?

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Tom

Joseph McBride's book is certainly worth reading ... a bit long and quite detailed.   But thought provoking.

Gene

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tom,

Minutes after the assassination of JFK, according to Sgt. Kenneth Croy, he asked other Dallas cops at  the downtown courthouse if they needed his help, and, again according to Croy, they said that his help wasn’t needed (even though at nearly precisely the same time, off-duty Dallas cops were being called in to start covering the case).  Once more according to Croy, at that fateful time he decided to have lunch at Austin’s Barbecue with his estranged wife.  Croy was a 12-year veteran of the DPD.

Capt. W.R. Westbrook had an equally difficult time explaining his whereabouts in the minutes after the assassination.  Do you believe Croy spent time immediately after the assassination of JFK with his estranged wife at Austin’s Barbecue?

Wait a minute.  Croy was a 12 year veteran of the DPD???  I thought he was a young wanna be assistant cop who was mysteriously handed a wallet to Westbrook.  As personnel manager of the DPD Westbrook would have known Croy's history with the department intimately if I'm reading this correctly.

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5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Tom

Joseph McBride's book is certainly worth reading ... a bit long and quite detailed.   But thought provoking.

Gene

Thanks Gene,

     "Into the Nightmare" has been on my 'purchase list' for quite a while. Now seems the time to take the plunge.
     A question for you: Do you have the print version or the ebook? Replacing my print books with ebooks has been a high priority with me for quite some time. Required book shelves for storage and the occasional time-wasting search for the print book...and I'm allergic to dust. The upside of Print books is the photos which are frequently not included in Ebook versions.
     The Ebook Search Function is invaluable.

If you have the Print book, are the pictures rare enough to justify purchase?

If you have the Ebook, are the photos included?

Thanks for any info,

Tom

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Wait a minute.  Croy was a 12 year veteran of the DPD???  I thought he was a young wanna be assistant cop who was mysteriously handed a wallet to Westbrook.  As personnel manager of the DPD Westbrook would have known Croy's history with the department intimately if I'm reading this correctly.

Tom,

I misspoke.  Although I believe it is filled with lies, according to his testimony, Croy had been a professional cowboy for about 12 years, and he also worked in real estate, construction, and owned an “oil service station.”  He said he had also been in the Dallas police reserves “since August of 1959.”  That still seems like a pretty long time for that sort of thing.

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5 hours ago, Tom Neal said:

Thanks Gene,

     "Into the Nightmare" has been on my 'purchase list' for quite a while. Now seems the time to take the plunge.
     A question for you: Do you have the print version or the ebook? Replacing my print books with ebooks has been a high priority with me for quite some time. Required book shelves for storage and the occasional time-wasting search for the print book...and I'm allergic to dust. The upside of Print books is the photos which are frequently not included in Ebook versions.
     The Ebook Search Function is invaluable.

If you have the Print book, are the pictures rare enough to justify purchase?

If you have the Ebook, are the photos included?

Thanks for any info,

Tom

 

 

 

Hi Tom, Yes the ebook has photos in it.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

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