Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[David Josephs]

17 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

"Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? 
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

Let me throw this in and please tell me if it tracks....

Paul is making this point by claiming BAKER was outside talking to Brennan before he ran up the steps into the TSBD... (if that actually happened)

It appears to me that Brennan speaks to an officer already standing there... I'd think he'd see BAKER running - no?  Truly being specific that it was NOT a motorcycle cop, when BAKER would have parked right next to him... implies to me it was someone else....

 

Mr. BELIN - All right.
Coming down to November 22, 1963, what was your occupation on that day?
Mr. BAKER - I was assigned to ride a motorcycle.

The next thing TRULY says after "7, 8, or 10 feet from me"

TRULY: ....just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps

These sure appear to be 2 different people....

Mr. BELIN. By the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. After you saw that, what did you do? 
Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.

Here I think is the Cop they were talking about..... directly across from Brennan.

 

 

What bothers me is that he supposedly drives his bike past the TSBD Entrance only to park farther away?  In 478 below not only is there no motorcycle but he is running into frame from the WEST and there is simply no motorcycle there...

Mr. BELIN - And you stopped your motorcycle 10 feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN - After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I parked here
Mr. BELIN - You are pointing on Exhibit 361 to the place that you have marked with "B."  (DJ: The reversed image)

Mr. BAKER - I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.
Mr. BELIN - By this building, you are referring to what?
Mr. BAKER - The Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN - Go on.
Representative BOGGS -You were parked right in front of the Building?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; ran right straight to it.

 

Mr. BAKER - And then I ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. First I glanced over this side here, because the last thing I heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "Get some men up on that railroad track."
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear that on your police radio?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that was the last thing I heard.
Mr. BELIN - As you were getting off your motorcycle?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
SENATOR COOPER - I didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio?
Mr. BAKER - I heard Chief Curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "Get some men over on the railroad track." I think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track.
Mr. BELIN - By "everyone" do you include you, too?
Mr. BAKER - No, Sir. I had it--I was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that I knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here.
 

No, Sir. I had it ------  What? He knew WHAT to ignore a direct order from the Chief of Police??

 

 

 

 

[John Butler]

There were three Dallas policemen assigned to the intersection of Houston and Elm to direct and control traffic.  They are:

1. Welcome Eugene Barrett

2. Joe Marshall Smith

3.  Edgar Smith

This frame from Tina Towner shows Welcome Barrett.  Bart Kamp provided a better film frame and it is somewhere in the post on the fire escape plan. 

The Bell film shows what might be Barrett standing at the corner of the TSBD.  I believe it is where he said he was but the WC interrogator confuses the issue.

Here is that Bell frame for you to decide:

As you can see the image quality is bad.  I put two ? marks at another location that shows Barrett (maybe) and that location agrees with Tina Towner.

Barrett may be the officer that curses that is noted.  Roy Truly was not in the northern part of the intersection of Houston and Elm.  Welcome Barrett may have been.  If the Bell frame shows another policeman besides Barrett then who that might be is anybody's guess.

Here is Bart's frame:

He says that is Campbell and Truly next to Barrett.

Edited March 26, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

All well and good guys, except that we have it from Roy Truly himself that Brennan talked to Marrion Baker and Truly together outside the TSBD, before starting their "dash" up the stairs!

Bart pointed that out in his thread that in the April, 1964 Odessa American, a reporter named Roy Bode got a direct quote from Truly himself:

Truly said that he and Baker were approached by Brennan who "yelled" at them that the shooter was in the TSBD. Further, Brennan gave them a clothing description.

That is what Roy Truly himself said in April of 1964 to Roy Bode, who then reported it in the Odessa American newspaper!

I don't see what else there is to say, except that Roy Truly obviously didn't realize in April of 1964 just how tight the timing to frame "Oswald" really was, otherwise he would not have given the interview!

Baker + Truly + Brennan outside the TSBD means that the Baker/Truly dash up the stairs did NOT happen immediately!

I can't get the image of the newspaper interview to load, but look at Bart's Prayerman presentation, page 34. 

 

[Tony Krome]

How accurate is the Odessa article? Any corroboration from any other players in this scene? Is see the journo used the word "killer", he wasn't interviewing Brennan, and I doubt Truly would have used the word.

"He looked toward the building and saw the killer aiming the rifle"

[David Josephs]

3 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

"He looked toward the building and saw the killer aiming the rifle"

Good point Tony.... any corroboration is flimsy at best....

Mr. Brennan is about as reliable as Truly and Shelley....

How can you see the man, see the rifle, describe the man and rifle yet not see the rifle shoot? 
Only Euins claims to have seen shots from that window...  do the inmates at the Jail corroborate him?   

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?
Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

 

 

[Guest]

Meanwhile, thanks to Reuel Smith. In one of John Barbour's PDFs from his Garrison files. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-qB_Q7YJ73Km1YU0VOTPHeAE-aT0eo51/view?usp=sharing

Page 51 at the bottom.

In the Dan Smoot Report from Dec 2 1963

 

One of the police officers who searched inside the building was accompanied by R. S. Truly, a supervisor of the book depository firm.They encountered Lee Harvey Oswald, walking toward an entrance, to leave the building. The officer asked who he was. Mr. Truly said Oswald.....

Edited March 27, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

http://www.prayer-man.com/the-other-witnesses-by-george-and-patricia-nash/

Shelley said 5/6 mins before 'they' went in

Edited May 5, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

 

The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter in a Nutshell.

Click HERE (27.3MB) to see the entire paper and be able to refer to the pages.

By: Bart Kamp.

·         The Darnell film ends with Baker just about to step up to the curb. He is at least 10 ft. away from the bottom steps when the camera swerves back. Page 29.

·         Baker does not appear to head for the stairs but to the south east corner of the TSBD building, his WC testimony at first shows he had no idea where exactly the shots had come from. Page 18.

·         Baker uses pigeons lifting off from the roof as an indicator that the shots came from the T.S.B.D., but others have seen the same pigeons lift off and fly at different locations. Pages 24-25.

·         Buell Wesley Frazier, Roy Edward Lewis and Joe Molina who stand on the landing of the steps and in front of the door, see no helmeted officer going past them. Molina sees only Truly go in, and even states in his report by B.L. Senkel that Truly stayed on the first floor. Pages 41-43.

·         In April 1964, while being interviewed by Roy Bode, Truly states that he and Baker talked to Howard Brennan before they went in. That by itself contradicts Truly and Baker’s tale of storming up the T.S.B.D. stairs. Furthermore he states Oswald was sighted while leaving the lunch room. Page 40.

·         Foreman Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who have been recorded in film footage and supported with their statements as well, left immediately after the shots had been fired. Their W.C. testimony contradicts this by them claiming that they stayed on those steps for a few minutes, then left the steps and looked back and see Baker and Truly go in the building. In an interview with George and Patricia Nash in 1964 Shelley puts Baker’s and Truly’s entry even at 5-6 minutes. This kills the timing. Pages 33-39.

·         Pauline Sanders is the only person who makes a mention of a helmeted officer going in, but she makes no mention of Truly. She stood on the east side of the steps.  Page 44.

·         Baker’s handwritten and typed up statements from the late afternoon of Nov. 22^nd mention no lunch room encounter at all. And the only encounter he did have was on the 3^rd or 4^th floor. Page 74.

·         In that first statement Baker says that when arriving in the vestibule he sees several people standing around and asks where the stairs are (which are to the right once inside the vestibule) and cannot be missed by anyone after which Truly supposedly steps forward (Truly states they had run up the steps together!) and leads him to the back of the building. Roy Truly’s F.B.I. statement from Nov. 22^nd states “they saw no one there” Page 46.

·         Marvin Johnson, who takes Baker’s affidavit later that afternoon states that Baker pointed out Oswald, while being interrogated by Will Fritz, as the man he apprehended. None of the interrogation reports by either the D.P.D., F.B.I. and S.S. support this part of Johnson’s statement. Page 74.

·         Johnson’s statement also states that Baker searched L.H.O, a physical contact which has not been substantiated by anyone else either. The official story during the confrontation is that Truly vouched for Oswald being a worker after which they continue their ascend to the top. Nor did Baker recognise him in a line-up. There is no record of this at all and this is something Baker denied happening during his W.C. testimony. Page 78.

·         Eddie Piper states during his W.C. testimony that in a few minutes someone came in the building, “and I looked up and it was the boss man and a policeman or someone.” That contradicts the timing element of Baker and Truly who said they stormed in within seconds after the sho0ting, also consider that the re-enactments were timed at 75 and 90 seconds. Page 49.

·         Piper gets called in again for a second time during his W.C. testimony, when asked whether Truly was with a white helmeted officer Piper says “I don’t think so.” Pages 50 and 51.

·         Truly makes no mention about any elevators in his statement from the 22^nd. Page 52.

·         Marvin Johnson’s statement on taking Baker’s affidavit makes no mention of any elevators either. Page 57.

·         Roy Truly and Marrion Baker contradict each other about who actually said ‘let’s go up the stairs’ after ‘noticing’ the elevators are hung on the 5^th floor. Pages 54 and 55.

·         Jack Dougherty’s W.C. testimony states that he took the West elevator down from the fifth to the first floor immediately after hearing a shot. He does not hear Roy Truly yell up the shaft. Page 56.

·         Sandra Styles, many years after the fact, states that Victoria Adams told her offhandedly that she saw the elevator cables move while they made their descent from the fourth floor. Page 57.

·         While Truly and Baker make their alleged ascend up the steps there is more activity being recorded of another employee who use the very same stairs. Otis Williams makes his way from the front stairs to the 4^th floor. Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles descended almost immediately after the final shot from the 4^th floor. Page 57.

·         Dorothy Ann Garner, in a Martha J. Stroud document had stated that she saw Truly and a police officer come up after the girls, Adams and Styles, had gone down. Page 57.

·         Truly walking ahead of Baker is not recorded until early Dec 1963 by the S.S. That same week and during the months after Roy Truly does 3 interviews, contradicting himself saying that Baker was ahead of him. Pages 61-64.

·         The lunch room encounter can be questioned by Baker’s position upon arriving on the second floor and the viewing angle through the closed door. Roy Truly passed it before Baker and admitted the door was closed as well. Pages 65-70.

·         The door with a self-closing mechanism takes 5 seconds to open and close, there was not a time difference that long after ascending one floor between Baker and Truly. Pages 76-77.

·         During the encounter Oswald is placed at different locations inside the second floor lunch room. Pages 86-88.

·         The second floor lunch room, and the rest of that floor was off limits to manual workers, unless they purchased a coke for their lunch. The manual workers had their lunch ether outside or downstairs on the first floor in the domino room. Page 135.

·         Mrs. Robert Reid’s statement and testimony cannot be believed due to the timing aspect, she saw Oswald wearing a white t-shirt contradicting Baker and the presence of Geneva Hine inside the very same office, yet neither noticed each other. Pages 88-91.

·         Geneva Hine was alone in the 2^nd floor office from 12:25 to 12:35. Page 90.

·         Oswald’s coke starts as an insertion into Mrs. Reid’s hand written statement. Page 94.

·         Marrion Baker mentions the coke in his hand written Sept. 1964 statement, only for it to be stricken out. In March that very same year, during his W.C. testimony,  he said that he saw nothing in his hands. Page 93.

·         The Revill list contradicts Oswald’s departure after 3 minutes. It also shows that certain employees were not recorded on it and some arrived back at the T.S.B. throwing the roll call of the T.S.B.D. inhabitants Pages 112-113.

·         Oswald was sighted by Sarah Stanton before the motorcade arrived, near the stairs (which are most likely the front stairs) and asked whether he was going to go out for lunch! She noticed him holding a soda. Page 137.

·         Various law enforcement officers and T.S.B.D. employees make mention of an encounter on the first floor or at the front door in many different newspaper reports on the 22^nd and 23^rd. Pages 113-121.

·         The first mention of a second floor lunch room encounter in the press is at 13:50 hours by Peggy Simpson of the A.P.

·         Carolyn Arnold at first sees Oswald in the vestibule in her Nov. 26^th statement, only for her to retract this roughly 15 years later. The retraction can be doubted due to her statement of going back for a glass of water and seeing him in the lunch room instead. Also statements from her co-workers who stated they left the building together. Pages 121-135.

·         Oswald’s alibi is systematically destroyed during his interrogations by D.P.D. Captain Will Fritz and F.B.I. agents James Hosty and James Bookhout. Pages 136-146.

·         The re-enactment and its timing aspect of the 2FLRE, have never been confirmed by anyone seeing it actually happening inside the T.S.B.D..  Pages 147-159.

 

 

 

 

COPYRIGHT © Bart Kamp.

[Guest]

Nat Pinkston the co-creator of the second floor lunch room encounter, busy that evening of the 22nd.
Thank you Malcolm Blunt.

As you can see Pinkston was aware that Oswald had told Fritz and co that he saw Truly and Warren Caster with others and two rifles.

'They accounted for everyone else' is rubbish.

Charles Givens was a goner and his description went out on the police radio by the time Oswald was at the T.T. Lloyd Viles and several women were not accounted for at all.  Some women did not even make it back in and left for home. 

 

[Guest Rich Pope]

It makes the most sense that Oswald, like everyone else, would be wanting to see the presidential motorcade as it passed by.  In addition, it makes sense to me that "prayer man" is Oswald holding his camera and taking pictures of the parade.  

[David Andrews]

4 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

It makes the most sense that Oswald, like everyone else, would be wanting to see the presidential motorcade as it passed by.  In addition, it makes sense to me that "prayer man" is Oswald holding his camera and taking pictures of the parade.  

If he's holding his camera, then where did the Warren Commission exhibits come from?

Not that there's anything wrong with the Warren Commission --

Edited September 9, 2019 by David Andrews

[Guest Rich Pope]

David,

What do you mean?

 

[Andrej Stancak]

This is a less-known view of Prayer Man from frame # -3520 of the original film (upper panel). The image is blurred but it still shows, unlike other frames, some facial features including a slightly extruded space between the nose and upper lip. In the bottom row, Lee Oswald's face is shown for comparison purposes in different post-assassination photographs. He indeed had the naso-labial portion of his face slightly extruded.  Please note also the bald spot on the left temple giving a specific shape of hairline. The two hairlines match very well.

 

The next figure shows an overlay of Lee's face (the second picture from the right) with Prayer Man's face. At 0%, there is no overlay, only the original image from Darnell still. With increasing percentage, Lee's photograph in the background perspires more and more. The match appears to be undeniable, at least to me. It is not the only clue that supports the possibility that lee Oswald was Prayer man, however, it is a very concrete clue which as a minimum justifies further searching along this line.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:30 PM, Bart Kamp said:

The interview will be aired this weekend if I am correct.

Also a downloadable PDF of this essay has been made by Bernard Wilds of DPUK at the very same link as above.

And I also added the following find to this essay so it's the latest updated and amended version:

This is just beautiful! Roy Truly being interviewed by Roy Bode for the Odessa American in April 1964.

Found by Steve Roe and posted by Denis Morissette on FB.

 

 

Brennan had a chat with Baker and Truly.....as supposedly running up those stairs like hell....where Truly could not remember where they hooked up or where Baker said they nearly bumped into each other in the vestibule.....

 

Then the matter of being misquoted, purely to deflect any future phone calls to the TSBD about him being a lone nut friend or commie sympathiser.

 

Marguerite Oswald walks in the TSBD with Altgens6 and gets shown the door by RT? WOW! Would have loved to have seen that!

 

 

 

Truly lied to the WC like there was no tomorrow.

 

Looks like Ochus Campbell's statement to Jim Leavelle confirms this so called chat between them, he lumps Baker and Brennan together.

"A uniform officer.......

 

 

 

[Ed LeDoux]

The second floor encounter never happened.

What happened was Roy Truly and Marion Baker robbed Lee of his alibi.

You have proved this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Great work Bart!

Cheers, Ed