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Steve Thomas

How did Hosty expect to talk to Marina?

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24 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Oh yeah, and what about the dictionary?  Don't you think she would have noticed it on the kitchen table while Oswald was writing / typing, and then when she saw it the next day next to the draft, it's being there would, combined with all the other stuff, above, indicate to her that "mysto paper" must be his final draft? ? 
 

Under Oath, Ruth stated she did not know to whom the dictionary belonged.

I'd like to see that dictionary. As far as I know, it's not in evidence and we are left with a typewritten report that describes the notations LHO made inside it. Which is sorta like asking an artist to make a rendering of a head wound from a photo and introducing the rendering as evidence. I don't know if it was checked for micro-dots.

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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

Under Oath, Ruth stated she did not know to whom the dictionary belonged.

I'd like to see that dictionary. As far as I know, it's not in evidence and we are left with a typewritten report that describes the notations LHO made inside it. Which is sorta like asking an artist to make a rendering of a head wound from a photo and introducing the rendering as evidence. I don't know if it was checked for micro-dots.

Chris,

So, all-in-all, given everything I've pointed out to you in my last four or five posts on this thread, I'd have to say that Ruth's story about how she thought the mysto paper was Oswald's final draft when she put it in the drawer sounds plausible to me.

What's really disconcerting is that a couple of months before the assassination,  CIA's tentative identification of Kostikov as being Department 13 hinged on Oleg Byrkin's being Department 13 at the U.N., which "identification," in turn, was based on information given to the FBI by someone who many years later turned out to be a loyal-to-Moscow triple agent -- Aleksy Kulak, aka "Fedora".

--  Tommy  :sun

P.S.  I know that former KGB general (and head of the First Chief Directorate) Oleg Kalugin says Kulak/"Fedora" was a true informer to the FBI and CIA, but his saying that (and that Bagley's book is "trash" because "Nosenko was a true defector!") just tells me that Kalugin either isn't what he appears to be, or was himself fed disinfo by the Second Chief Directorate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_(KGB_agent)

Edited by Thomas Graves

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8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Steve, I just read the entire Raigorodsky testimony...deposition?

A lot of interesting stuff.

I have to assume that in his regular visits to Houston that DeM had to have interacted with oil man G.H.W. Bush. Weren't there a lot of dots connecting George and Herman Brown to Bush?

Joe,

 

Think Halliburton.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBR_(company)

KBR, Inc. (formerly Kellogg Brown & Root) is an American engineering, procurement, and construction company, formerly a subsidiary of Halliburton. After Halliburton acquired Dresser Industries in 1998, Dresser's engineering subsidiary, The M. W. Kellogg Co., was merged with Halliburton's construction subsidiary, Brown & Root, to form Kellogg Brown & Root. KBR and its predecessors have received many contracts with the U.S. military including during World War II, the Vietnam War, and the Iraq War.

 

If I read this right, they own the patent on fracking.

 

I don't remember who right now, but somebody in the WC transcripts was talking about all the mysterious trips George DeM was making to Houston and how well he knew George and Herman Brown.

 

Raigorodsky is also mentioned in the Torbitt Document.

 

A very interesting book came out last year (2017) called, The Three Barons. by James Lateer. I haven't read it yet, but he seems to cover a lot of ground. He names Charles Willoughby, former head of Intelligence for Douglas MacArthur as one of the key planners of JFK's assassination.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jsRADwAAQBAJ&pg=PT272&lpg=PT272&dq="Paul+RAIGORODSKY"&source=bl&ots=1FQbiEuA6L&sig=trpUxGbof-yFpRFojivfZSsiNiQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI1aSE3_fYAhXE0FMKHct2Avk4ChDoAQg2MAU#v=onepage&q="Paul RAIGORODSKY"&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

So, all-in-all, given everything I've pointed out to you in my last four or five posts on this thread, I'd have to say that Ruth's story about how she thought the mysto paper was Oswald's final draft when she put it in the drawer sounds plausible to me.

According to the story she certainly knew it was a letter that Oswald wrote when she slipped it into the desk. By that time, it had been on the desk for at least 36 hours and she had already read it and copied it.

After hiding the draft in the desk secretary, (she never mentions hiding the dictionary, btw), she then asks Michael and Lee to come into the living room and move the furniture around? Sounds plausible, too. :)

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50 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

According to the story she certainly knew it was a letter that Oswald wrote when she slipped it into the desk. By that time, it had been on the desk for at least 36 hours and she had already read it and copied it.

After hiding the draft in the desk secretary, (she never mentions hiding the dictionary, btw), she then asks Michael and Lee to come into the living room and move the furniture around? Sounds plausible, too. :)

"Even though it was in his handwriting and next to his dictionary and inside her house and not too terribly far from the kitchen, how in the world could she have known for sure, when she very sneakily copied it, that it was a draft of the letter he'd typed in front of her one day earlier and on her typewriter, Tommy?"

LOL
 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Chris/Steve:

Are you suggesting that the real reason for Hosty to be there is Ruth?   I'm unsure where this all leads, but one thing that strikes me is that, he started this "surveillance" in March, and eight months is a long time to keep a case open for a routine random check of an immigrant/alien.  Hosty by then is at bell, and asking about Michael, plus visiting Ruth's school (St. Mark) where she teaches Russian part-time (for two students).  Hosty's attention seems to transcend Marina by that point in time.

Gene

Chris,

 

Hosty said, " Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her."

 

Back up six months from March. That takes you into the September, 1962 time frame or so. I think the Oswalds arrived in Fort Worth in August. I haven't read Fain's reports, so I'm not exactly sure when he retired and closed this "pending inactive case", but it sounds like there was some kind of internal FBI trigger that got activated after six months went by. In the meanwhile, Marina's case gets flipped back and forth between New Orleans and Dallas as the Oswalds move. Marina is still Hosty's focus, but he sees Ruth as a way in. Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School, tells Hosty that "Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual."

That's bureaucratese for "a source who has provided reliable information in the past" or other such gobblygook  that you see at the end of FBI reports.

 

Marina's case wasn't a "routine, random check of an immigrant/alien". The U.S. was deadly serious about communist attempts to infiltrate the U.S. by having intelligence agents marry U.S. citizens and bringing them back to the U.S.; especially in Marina's case.

I was reading through the State Department correspondence relating to LHO's defection and re-defection. There was a battle going on within the State Department between Marina's "non quota status" and the quota for Russian immigrants. Somebody was pushing for letting LHO bring Marina back with him, even though the quota for Russians had been reached.

For example, look at page 63 of this CIA file: LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=63&tab=page

 

"security advisory opinions", "waiver of sanctions" "checks with the CIA, the FBI, the State Department Office of Security"...

Somewhere in those 300 pages is the legalese back and forth, but eventually the quota problem was overcome. Marina's case was not normal.

 

Steve Thomas

 

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15 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Chris,

 

Hosty said, " Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her."

 

Back up six months from March. That takes you into the September, 1962 time frame or so. I think the Oswalds arrived in Fort Worth in August. I haven't read Fain's reports, so I'm not exactly sure when he retired and closed this "pending inactive case", but it sounds like there was some kind of internal FBI trigger that got activated after six months went by. In the meanwhile, Marina's case gets flipped back and forth between New Orleans and Dallas as the Oswalds move. Marina is still Hosty's focus, but he sees Ruth as a way in. Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School, tells Hosty that "Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual."

That's bureaucratese for "a source who has provided reliable information in the past" or other such gobblygook  that you see at the end of FBI reports.

 

Marina's case wasn't a "routine, random check of an immigrant/alien". The U.S. was deadly serious about communist attempts to infiltrate the U.S. by having intelligence agents marry U.S. citizens and bringing them back to the U.S.; especially in Marina's case.

I was reading through the State Department correspondence relating to LHO's defection and re-defection. There was a battle going on within the State Department between Marina's "non quota status" and the quota for Russian immigrants. Somebody was pushing for letting LHO bring Marina back with him, even though the quota for Russians had been reached.

For example, look at page 63 of this CIA file: LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=63&tab=page

 

"security advisory opinions", "waiver of sanctions" "checks with the CIA, the FBI, the State Department Office of Security"...

Somewhere in those 300 pages is the legalese back and forth, but eventually the quota problem was overcome. Marina's case was not normal.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Gene,

 

First of all, I'm sorry, I called you Chris in my earlier post. Sorry, that was a brain **rt.

Second, I think I misspoke a little when I said that the fight over Marina was a battle within the State Department. I think really it was a battle between the CIA and State.

Oswald said he wanted to come back., but he wouldn't come back unless he could bring Marina. The CIA said "sure, ok", but the State Department put its foot down and said "no", and the fight was on. That's why it took a year. In 1961 Oswald said he wanted to come back, but it took until 1962 for that to happen. The problem wasn't the Russians, it was the Americans.

 

Steve Thomas

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12 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gene,

Hosty said, "

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her."

Back up six months from March. That takes you into the September, 1962 time frame or so. I think the Oswalds arrived in Fort Worth in August. I haven't read Fain's reports, so I'm not exactly sure when he retired and closed this "pending inactive case", but it sounds like there was some kind of internal FBI trigger that got activated after six months went by. In the meanwhile, Marina's case gets flipped back and forth between New Orleans and Dallas as the Oswalds move. Marina is still Hosty's focus, but he sees Ruth as a way in. Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School, tells Hosty that "Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual."

That's bureaucratese for "a source who has provided reliable information in the past" or other such gobblygook  that you see at the end of FBI reports.

Marina's case wasn't a "routine, random check of an immigrant/alien". The U.S. was deadly serious about communist attempts to infiltrate the U.S. by having intelligence agents marry U.S. citizens and bringing them back to the U.S.; especially in Marina's case...

Steve Thomas

Steve,

I flatly disbelieve FBI agent James Hosty when he claims that he was involved in the FBI case of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) only because of Marina Oswald.  

Your thread here opens up a microscope to that lie, and I salute you for that.

Hosty’s testimony that he was only tracking Marina Oswald in March 1963 makes no sense to me, for the reason you stated – first and foremost – Marina was fluent only in Russian, and James Hosty spoke no Russian at all.

In my opinion, James Hosty used the “pending inactive case” on Marina Oswald as an excuse to go after LHO.  In my CT, it was at the request of Radical Right leader, General Walker.  In my CT, James Hosty secretly turned toward the Radical Right in Dallas, and Walker was obsessed by LHO, who was an alleged defector to the USSR, who came back to Texas with a Russian wife – and then moved to Dallas.

To clarify the dates – the Oswalds return from Russia to Fort Worth, Texas, in June, 1962.   Then, they moved to Dallas in November, 1962.

What happened in late January, 1963, was that a Mississippi Grand Jury acquitted General Walker of any wrongdoing in the deadly Ole Miss riots of September, 1962.  General Walker then went on a fresh rampage against Communists around the world, but especially in the USA, and most especially in Texas.

Suddenly, only a week after the General Walker shooting (April 10, 1963) LHO told Marina he was moving to New Orleans (April 17, 1963).   He made the move a week later, on April 24, 1963.

It seems to me, Steve, that James Hosty clung to Marina Oswald as his way to keep an eye on LHO.   There was a trigger in the LHO case, namely, LHO’s own call to the FBI when he was in a New Orleans jail cell.  The New Orleans FBI didn’t think much of the visit, and they decided to keep FBI case on LHO closed.  LHO didn’t appear dangerous to them.

Yet, when LHO moved back to Dallas on October 3, 1963, that was Hosty’s big opportunity to re-open the FBI file on LHO.  FBI rules demanded that Hosty first establish fully that LHO was now residing inside Dallas.  That, in my opinion, was why James Hosty descended upon Ruth Paine on November 1, 1963.

Here is my material evidence that James Hosty was using Marina Oswald as a way to spy on LHO and re-open his case.   Although Hosty told Ruth Paine on November 1, 1963 that he was there to interview Marina Oswald, he said that he really didn’t want to speak with Marina (on the excuse that Marina just had a baby a couple weeks prior).   

Instead, James Hosty grilled Ruth Paine for information about LHO!  Does LHO live here?   Where does he live?   Where does LHO work?  When did you last see him?  What are the politics of LHO?   And so on.

In order to hide his true intentions, even in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996), James Hosty claimed that Marina Oswald was the “true spy” and probably worked for the KGB.  Yet that could not be the case, since Hosty never really investigated Marina Oswald!

So, it was a lame excuse to spy on LHO.   It’s obvious to me.   Also, Steve, your question about how Hosty would even begin to interview a person who was fluent only in Russian, when Hosty never spoke Russian, seems to me to be a strong argument for my own CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

P.S.  Many thanks to Tracy Parnell for the exact dates of LHO's moves: http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:13 PM, Chris Newton said:

I'm not to the point yet where I want to call Agent Hosty out but...

It is against FBI policy to interview a female suspect alone without another Agent present. These FBI protocols are clear and absolute. I recommend a read of the testimony of the other FBI Agents involved in the post assassination investigation to understand how far "out there" Hosty's Nov. 1st visit to the Paines actually was (i.e. Church Committee). This "protocol" does not apply to visiting a female "informant" to discuss the weather and current events.

I've not studied the matter in depth but I can't see Hosty acting outside standard FBI protocols at the time.  As a straight arrow like Gene mentions he would not have taken a chance on stepping on Hoover's toe's in any fashion.  Further, he may not have been acting on his own initiative but on orders.  Bet they didn't discuss the weather.

Edited by Ron Bulman

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Steve

No worries ... if I get back on thread here, the question is, why would Hosty want to "interview" Marina, if she didn't speak English?   Maybe FBI suspected she was a KGB plant or someone involved in a complex penetration/double operation.   Or, maybe Hosty knew that she did speak English quite well.   Why else would an FBI agent be checking into Michael and Ruth's bonfides?   Also, for context, I don't think there was much love lost in those days (or for many years after) between FBI and CIA.  Cooperation and trust were nonexistent.   The there is Marina's testimony where she makes it clear that she didn't trust the FBI: 

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI.  I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, didn't make any difference.

Marina is as much an enigma as is her husband. There is an abundance of evidence that Marina spoke English.  One such anecdote is her Garrison grand jury testimony, stating that she once called Reilly Coffee Company looking for Lee.  She was asked how should could do that, she replied she knew “a few words.”  Marina knowing English well enough to write and speak raises questions of where she learned it; she was supposedly a graduate of pharmacy school.  One wonders why would she acquired English language skills. Marina's father was allegedly killed in the war; she lived with her stepfather and moved to Leningrad at age 12.  In 1955, she entered the Pharmacy Technikum for what was characterized as "special training."  Marina's mother allegedly died in 1957; after which she went to live with her uncle in Minsk, where she met Oswald.  Consider their whirlwind courtship.  In April 1961, a little more than a month since their first meeting, Oswald proposes to Marina. Most of the courtship is conducted from Oswald's hospital bed.  She accepts and they are married on April 30, 1961.  For Marina to marry Oswald, they needed to get special permission because he was a foreigner ... nonetheless, permission was granted in just ten days, for no less than an MVD colonel's niece marrying a U.S. defector. Then, after about a month of marriage, Oswald tells Marina that he's tired of the Soviet Union and wants to go home.  In the meantime, Marina decides to take a three-week vacation (by herself), ostensibly to visit an aunt in Kharkov. When she returned, she pursued her exit visa which was granted within six weeks on December 25th.  Marina later told the WC that she was surprised to receive permission, which would be an understatement. Apparently the Soviet government encouraged Marina and Oswald to marry and emigrate.  

In June of 1962, Oswald with wife and a four months old child returned to the United States. Soon Lee and Marina were surrounded by a 'platoon' of Russian-speaking people (White Russians) eager to help the young couple.  Researchers have identified over twenty Russian individuals in the Dallas-Fort Worth area who were in some way connected to Lee and Marina during that timeframe.  Today, it is an accepted fact that the White Russian Community in Texas was funded by the CIA through the Philadelphia-based Catherwood Foundation and the Tolstoy Foundation.  One such individual you've pointed out was Paul Raigorodsky, a 64-year old Russian expatriate, Chemical Engineer and millionaire oilman, who had served in the  Russian Army and the U.S. Army; he was the first White Russian immigrant to settle in Dallas (in 1920). Then there was Max Clark, a Fort Worth lawyer and industrial security supervisor at General Dynamics, as well as a mentor for George de Morenschildt and the White Russian Community. Max Clark was supposedly the first person Lee Harvey Oswald reached out to after the  long journey from the Soviet Union.  Another prominent expatriate was George Bouhe from St Petersburg, a self-appointed ”nursemaid” in the community.

KGB defector Petr Deryabin asserted that any Russian woman that wanted to marry a foreigner (and leave) had to agree to work for the KGB.  One Yuri Merezhinsky - interviewed by Norman Mailer for his book Oswald’s Tale - alleges that Marina was anything but virtuous, claiming she was a call girl (or a "swallow in a honey trap"),  part of a group of four people - two women and two men -  plying their trade in Leningrad.   Merezhinsky alleges that she was promiscuous with many of his friends.  A similar story is related by James Martin, her erstwhile business manager and lover for a short time, who later told the HSCA in 1978 that he attempted to tell the Warren Commission about her background, but was interrupted by Earl Warren who ordered the stenographer to destroy the tape.  Martin also relates that Marina understood everything said to her in English, yet she needed a Russian language translator for her WC testimony.  

No wonder that Hosty was investigating Marina and Company.  

Gene

 

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3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve

No worries ... if I get back on thread here, the question is, why would Hosty want to "interview" Marina, if she didn't speak English?  

Gene

 

Gene,

 

Your response of 1/27/18 cited above contains so many elements that it would take a half a book for me to reply to all of them. My hats off to you.

 

*smile*

 

Yeah, my original question was "how" Hosty expected to talk to Marina, unless he knew something that we don't.

In later FBI interviews, Marina is questioned by at least two agents, one of them (Anatole Boguslav) who knew Russian. The Secret Service used Russian-speaking, Leon Gopadze. How could Hosty expect to do that operating in the field, by himself? Something doesn't add up.

 

Max and Gali Clark are under studied I think.

 

I know that this is going to sound crazy, but I have a strong suspicion that it was Marina who ordered the rifle. I'll be happy to discuss that with you in a separate thread, if you like, but it goes back to her statements that the Oswalds were living on Neely St. in January.

 

You wrote, " In April 1961, a little more than a month since their first meeting, Oswald proposes to Marina."

I was astonished to learn that she did the same thing with her new husband, Kenneth Porter in 1965. I think I read that she married Porter about a month after meeting him.

 

Steve Thomas

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Steve:

I cant find much to read about James Hosty, but Marina's affiliations sure are interesting.  Sorry for going off on a tear with that last thread, but she must have been a legitimate person of interest for Agent Hosty.  Marina married Kenneth Porter on June 1, 1965, about a year and seven months after the assassination (another whirlwind courtship).  I always found it more than coincidental that he had been an employee of Collins Radio, and he left his wife and family for her.  However, they remain married today, so I could be reading too much into it.  A more sinister view of the world would be that Marina was surrounded by a protective cocoon (and handlers) after the assassination, starting with her "incarceration" at the Red Flags Inn.  I agree that the White Russian community that surrounded the Oswalds in the year before the assassination -- but seem to have abandoned Marina, once Lee was dead -- warrant more careful study.  In November 2013, Peter Gregory reminisced about his relationship with Marina in the New York Times magazine:

At the bottom of the Oswalds’ conflict, I thought, was Lee’s refusal to let Marina learn English. He argued that it would jeopardize his fluency in Russian, but more important, it was a way he leveraged control over her. During one visit to a Rexall drugstore that August, Lee became visibly angry when a pharmacist offered to hire Marina, who had worked at a hospital pharmacy in Minsk, once her language skills improved. The job, after all, could have made her the family breadwinner.  George Bouhe had arranged English lessons for many Russian émigrés; he could do the same for her. Now Lee’s voice rose again. If he allowed Marina to learn English, he said, his Russian would suffer, and it was very important that he retain his fluency.  I later asked Marina whether she had followed Bouhe’s urgings and begun to learn English ... she shrugged. She would get around to it one of these days, she said. 

Gene

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1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

 Marina married Kenneth Porter on June 1, 1965, about a year and seven months after the assassination (another whirlwind courtship).

Gene

Gene,

 

Life Magazine June 11, 1965. page 42.

https://books.google.com/books?id=61IEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=kenneth+jess+porter&source=bl&ots=lp0HUV4F5p&sig=kJru3r0fJ45AYst85TQLQ1Cnz1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF58vYpPvYAhUH1lMKHatHDuIQ6AEIlAEwGA#v=onepage&q=kenneth jess porter&f=false

"Wedding of the Week: In Fate, Texas"

"Marina and Porter had known known each other a little more than a month."

 

Steve Thomas

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Others probably remember better than I and can provide more specific detail but as an aside I read somewhere in years past...  During the time mentioned above when Marina was "promiscuous" in Leningrad before she met Lee she supposedly met or dated another American defector.  This person reported she spoke very good English at the time.

Also of interest, like others I believe, I've read the CIA and FBI were not cooperative on an operational level.  I.E. they did not generally share information or operations.  However, in his recent book Ghost Jeff Morley contends they did develop a working relationship at/near the top via Angleton and Hoover.  Both kept extensive secret files on persons of interest to them in various fields throughout the country and world.  That they developed a mutual respect for each others devious methods and occasionally shared information when it was mutually beneficial.  I wouldn't think that would have filtered down to Hosty knowing Marina spoke English.  If she did.  

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