Two Oswalds in the Texas Theater

[Ron Bulman]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

<LAUGH!>  But she must have meant to describe something a little different, eh?

 

This is not the ticket booth as it was in 1963.  Look at the Oswald arrest picture, you can see the square/rectangular frame.

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen a picture I couldn't find with a quick search showing the entrance up close with no one around and better lighting of the area.  What I think I remember was the ticket booth being forward from the doors, even with front of the "now showing".  I.E. detached, independent of the front doors, building itself.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 10/2/2019 at 11:37 PM, Ron Bulman said:

This is not the ticket booth as it was in 1963.  Look at the Oswald arrest picture, you can see the square/rectangular frame.

Ron,

Yeah, the booth looks rectangular to me too in most of the pictures from the day.  But it may be an optical illusion.  It does appear to be Mrs. Postal in the booth, and a Google Image search for the photo I have gets no hits whatsoever other than my website which, in this case, is weird.  John A. sent me the photo relatively recently (last year or two), but I didn’t think to ask what his source was.  It might be interesting to track this down.

Below is a scan I just made of the top of page 147 of Robert Groden’s The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald.  Under PHOTO CREDITS at the back of the book, the source for the photo at left is “Robert J. Groden Collection.”

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Ron,

Yeah, the booth looks rectangular to me too in most of the pictures from the day.  But it may be an optical illusion.  It does appear to be Mrs. Postal in the booth, and a Google Image search for the photo I have gets no hits whatsoever other than my website which, in this case, is weird.  John A. sent me the photo relatively recently (last year or two), but I didn’t think to ask what his source was.  It might be interesting to track this down.

Below is a scan I just made of the top of page 147 of Robert Groden’s The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald.  Under PHOTO CREDITS at the back of the book, the source for the photo at left is “Robert J. Groden Collection.”

Jim, that rounded version on the left does look like it could be perceived as rectangular in the Oswald arrest photo I posted.  With the darkened background under the awning and only the front supports of the ticket booth showing in it above Oswald, the arresting officers and crowd it looks probable.

The thing your picture your shows that both convinces me of something I thought and perplexes me is this.  The booth is glass enclosed all the way around. You can see through it.  You see the entry doors behind it. It was detached from the building itself, the entry area.  The stairs to the balcony.  

Julia Postal, or some other unknown woman (?) told at least two DPD officers entering the theater looking for a suspect that he went up the stairs to the balcony.  I need to look for their names.  They are mentioned earlier in the thread.

If Julia Postal was out front doing her job, she couldn't see the stairs. 

[Cory Santos]

In the arrest photo the box office frame appears white.  In the odd photo with Postal, who looks unusually large, the frame is brown.  Then in the Groden picture, sans Postal, it is brown with numbers on it.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Cory Santos

[Ray Mitcham]

When the arrest photo is blown up, it appears that the ticket booth is in fact rectangular, as can see the right hand front corner (as we look at it)

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Joe Bauer]

23 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

In the arrest photo the box office frame appears white.  In the odd photo with Postal, who looks unusually large, the frame is brown.  Then in the Groden picture, sans Postal, it is brown with numbers on it.

Correct Cory. 

Notice also an area of chipped off paint at the base of the booth versus the clean painted one in what appears to be a photo of a retouched up booth taken later than 11,22,1963?

And in the newer date pic there isn't a lighter colored frame (perhaps metal?) around the top of the booth either?

The pic of a restrained and pain faced Oswald being led out of the theater and physically aggressive hustled into the police car is an iconic one to me.

Curiously surprising how the Dallas PD would allow so many bystanders to crowd in so close to this dramatic capture endeavor. 

You would think the arrest force would have created at least a 20 to 30 foot open space cordon in front of the theater just to allow them to do their job without being so crowded it looked like a circus.

And when we in our town ( admittedly small but bigger than Mayberry and always busy on a Friday ) heard about the JFK shooting, our downtown became a ghost town right away. Everybody went home to watch TV.

I know because as soon as our school shut down and ordered us to go home, I had to walk through our downtown to do so. I didn't see anyone on the streets and very few cars. Everything was eerily quiet. Again, everybody went home to watch TV.

I know Dallas and Oak Cliff had a large population in November, 2011 but still, seeing such a large and mixed age crowd instantly gathered in front of the Texas theater as the famous photo shows seems weird to me.

Were the theater patrons inside the theater unaware of the news that the President of the United States was shot just a few miles from them at 12:30 pm?

I think the theater management in our town would have stopped the movie and came out and told us movie watchers what had happened and not continued the showing.

I couldn't have stayed watching "War Is Hell" and eating popcorn knowing this unbelievably shocking event just occurred so close by.

Strange stuff, strange times.

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Jim Hargrove]

Brian Doyle found this image of the theater and ticket booth that appears to be from Nov. 22, 1963 or very close to that date.

[Cory Santos]

6 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Correct Cory. 

Notice also an area of chipped off paint at the base of the booth versus the clean painted one in what appears to be a photo of a retouched up booth taken later than 11,22,1963?

And in the newer date pic there isn't a lighter colored frame (perhaps metal?) around the top of the booth either?

The pic of a restrained and pain faced Oswald being led out of the theater and physically aggressive hustled into the police car is an iconic one to me.

Curiously surprising how the Dallas PD would allow so many bystanders to crowd in so close to this dramatic capture endeavor.  They were so close they could have reached out and touched Oswald it seems.

You would think the arrest force would have created at least a 20 to 30 foot open space cordon in front of the theater just to allow them to do their job without being so crowded it looked like a circus.

And when we in our town ( admittedly small but bigger than Mayberry and always busy on a Friday ) heard about the JFK shooting, our downtown became a ghost town right away. Everybody went home to watch TV.

I know because as soon as our school shut down and ordered us to go home, I had to walk through our downtown to do so. I didn't see anyone on the streets and very few cars. Everything was eerily quiet. Again, everybody went home to watch TV.

I know Dallas and Oak Cliff had a large population in November, 2011 but still, seeing such a large and mixed age crowd instantly gathered in front of the Texas theater as the famous photo shows seems weird to me.

Were the theater patrons inside the theater unaware of the news that the President of the United States was shot just a few miles from them at 12:30 pm?

I think the theater management in our town would have stopped the movie and came out and told us movie watchers what had happened and not continued the showing.

I couldn't have stayed watching "War Is Hell" and eating popcorn knowing this unbelievably shocking event just occurred so close by.

Strange stuff, strange times.

 

In Reno the theater stopped the films, announced he was shot.  Very odd they did not in Dallas but that is probably a strange coincidence rather than something nefarious unless other theaters in Dallas did.  Clearly Postal allegedly knew.  Although her story is making less sense the more I read various versions of her story.  Just like Burroughs and Brewer.  But some people exaggerate to be part of history which could be an explanation.

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Brian Doyle found this image of the theater and ticket booth that appears to be from Nov. 22, 1963 or very close to that date.

Very excellent.  Many thanks to Brian.  This proves it was not the rounded version in your earlier picture.  And I think me wrong.  The ticket booth does not appear detached. Though that is hard to reconcile with the earlier picture you posted where you can see through it I commented on.

Either way how did Julia Postal observe anyone going up the stairs to the balcony Inside from the ticket booth Outside?  

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Very excellent.  Many thanks to Brian.  This proves it was not the rounded version in your earlier picture.  And I think me wrong.  The ticket booth does not appear detached. Though that is hard to reconcile with the earlier picture you posted where you can see through it I commented on.

Either way how did Julia Postal observe anyone going up the stairs to the balcony Inside from the ticket booth Outside?  

Agreed.  If Leo Sauvage accurately quoted Dallas Assistant D.A. Jim Bowie’s answer to his question, then there were “half a dozen calls” sending the cops to the theater, although Bowie did say Mrs. Postal was one of the callers.

I just sent a note to John A. suggesting we exchange the photo Brian found for the one currently on our website. 

[James DiEugenio]

This was a really interesting thread.

People like Steve Thomas, Ron Bulman, Robert Charles Dunne--who has been away too long--and especially Paul Joliffe made some really important posts.  On August 15th, Paul really wrote some key information about Brewer.

Can anyone answer the last question about Postal?  It seems quite appropriate to ask.

Edited October 13, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

Thanks Jim.  I was kind of startled by the response to the thread myself. I watch how threads are reacted to, who's posting when I visit.  The number of posts and views in the time it's been here surprised me for the forum.  Michael Cross comment on page 5, 7/23 was encouraging "You guys have the WC crew out in force.  Must be on the right track".  Jim H's diagram of the TT is essential to understanding.  I really knew nothing of Brewer myself previously, just a curious shoe salesman, but hanks to Paul...

As to the current question...  I still wonder myself, if Julia Postal was out front of the entrance in the ticket booth doing her job when Oswald supposedly passed, how did she know to report to incoming officers the suspect went upstairs to the balcony?  Why wasn't she questioned about such details? 

[James DiEugenio]

Those are both good questions Ron.

And I cannot answer them.  Fifty five years later.

[Ron Bulman]

Bill Simpich's current thread on Lumkin, Gannaway and the DPD-Army Intelligence network has some  very interesting info relating to this thread on page 7, 3/4 down to the end.  I'm not good at quoting on line.  The whole page is quite interesting.  

 

[Bill Simpich]

In regards to Ron's question about why Julia told the police that the man went up in the balcony - I have to initially say that the evidence indicates Brewer and Burroughs told her he was up there before she called the police. 

But I also have to say that it is not in her initial statement, nor does she say it to the Warren Commission.   The dispatcher or the cops could have it cooked it up.

If you review the three statements of Brewer, Burroughs and Postal to the WC, which pretty much match their initial statements as reported in the press, and statements to the police by Postal - you will see that at 1:30 to 1:35 Brewer was in hot pursuit of the Oswald-type character when he "ducked" by Postal into the Theatre. 

I say 1:30 to 1:35 because Postal knew that JFK was dead before the Oswald-type character entered the theatre.  She said the news was announced "just about the time all chaos broke loose".

This was 15-20 minutes after Oswald entered the theatre and later bought popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15 - according to Burroughs' statement to Jim Marrs in 1987 - and I think it was done to provoke a call to the police to the theatre.  

I have listened to Jones Harris' very explicit description to me of his interview with Postal - and he and others at the interview were convinced that Postal knew that she had sold a ticket to Oswald - but she would not admit and will never admit.  She didn't just cry when asked if she sold him a ticket - she lost her bearings - and it happened twice.

John Armstrong describes the route to the balcony:  "The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right." 

Thus, From the door, the Oswald-type character could either go straight up the stairs to the balcony, or he could enter the ground floor while passing by Burroughs' concession stand.

Brewer and Burroughs looked for the character on the ground floor and checked the doors - since the doors were locked and they couldn't be locked from the outside, they assumed that the character was still in the theatre and was not seen in the ground floor.  Burroughs said that he assumed that he had "sneaked up the stairs real fast" because the stairway was near the entry door - and was now up in the balcony.   Brewer said they looked up in the balcony and "couldn't see anything", probably because it was so dark. They "told Julia that we hadn't seen him...and she called the police".  The dispatcher reported that she told the police the man was "hiding in the balcony" - probably because that's what they told her.

One of the cops claim that Postal told them when they got there that the suspect was in the balcony:  K.D. Lyons, who was in the car with Hill and Bentley and Oswald during that very questionable ride.  Did others tell that tale?  This needs further research.

It is intriguing to note that the news story reports that it was the mysterious manager John Callahan who turned the lights on and exposed LHO to the police.  Postal said that just as Oswald entered the building, Callahan came running out the other way, and "got in his car...to see where (the police) were going."  Another report says that the "manager on duty" had seen one man in the theater "since 12:05".  To my knowledge, Callahan was never questioned by anybody.