Anyone care to disprove this throat shot scientific theory from the South Knoll?

[Paul Jolliffe]

As I look at the close-up photos of the limo's windshield outside Parkland, I am not convinced there was really a through-and-through hole in it. There might have been, but I can't see it.

I know there are witnesses who insist the windshield was a hole and not a spidery crack, and maybe they are correct. But . . .

I guess I am on the fence on this: I can't really believe a high-powered rifle shot through the windshield would leave such (relatively) little damage to the windshield.

Does anyone have any photographic evidence of rifle shots penetrating any other vehicle's windshield and leaving such a small trace of impact?

Can anyone here cite a study of the damage to windshields from rounds of various calibers? (With lots of pictures for me to look at!)

What, exactly, does the damage from a 6.5, a 7.65, a .22, a .223, and so on do to a windshield from 100 yards?

Thanks in advance!

[Chris Davidson]

21 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

So I'm guessing that this photo was taken from the south side of the overpass, not the South Knoll, correct?

 

Yes.

Anywhere between the 1min20sec mark and onward in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPN1Lm3cnw

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF6oevG06Xo

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by Chris Davidson

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

Yes.

Anywhere between the 1min20sec mark and onward in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPN1Lm3cnw

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF6oevG06Xo

 

Thanks, Chris. Since I've never been up there, it was useful for me to see extensive continuous footage. Very helpful in providing perspective.

[Adam Johnson]

For you guys plotting graphs and trajectories, the only problem with firing from the spot at the 1min20 mark to the 1min40 point in the video was a shooter standing,crouching or laying there would of been clearly visible to 2 policeman and over a dozen other citizens less then 30 to 45 metres away. Its a straight line of sight from the 30 second mark of this video down to the 1:40 min mark.

If your going to have a southside shooter that no body ever see's you cant put them in a spot 15 people only metres away could see them. But never did.

A police officer was stationed at each end of the overpass that day, they were up there with the railway workers....although i will grant you that in photographs taken the south knoll allocated officer looks like he is walking over from the southside approximately above the main st. section of the over pass just AFTER the shooting.....but he was still only 20 to 25 metres from any south knoll firing position around the 1min 40 point in this video prior to the shooting. Yet he is walking away from where one or two shots are supposed to have come from(start of south knoll overpass wall)? He must of had really poor hearing.

Even if a shooter were just 1,2,3 metres to the right of the 1min40 point in this video anyone standing 3 or 4 feet back from the overpass stone wall could see down the first 5 to 6 metres of the overpass once it angles back towards the postal annex building.

I believe that only in the first 1 to 2 metres at the very start of the overpass southside wall would you have cover from people on the overpass standing above main street, but if that police officer ever walked down to anywhere around the 1min40 mark of this video they could see you behind the start of the wall.

At some point as the shooter you would want to go to your chosen firing position before the motorcade  arrived.  If it was in that spot at the start of the overpass wall you would be very likely to be seen if you were there for any length of time.  

Hi David J, where and when was Godfrey McHugh told he would not be allowed in the front seat of the limo for the down town dallas drive? And by whom? Was it on airforce one or at love field only a minute or two before the motorcade starts?

David, i know its your belief that the plotters plan was to have G. McHugh removed from the front seat of the limo. To allow clearer access to JFK in the backseat, for a frontal shot thru the windshield by an experienced assassin who would be placed directly in front of the limo whilst it travelled down elm st.

But i think a couple of assumptions maybe wrong, if your going to have a shooter from the front while the limo is travelling down elm street your going to want them up on the overpass.  If your going to put them in that elevated position your not going to have them firing their shot thru the glass windshield at JFK.

I think McHugh was removed because unlike Greer and Kellerman, McHugh would have gladly died protecting JFK, at the first recognition the president was under attack the plotters didnt want McHugh jumping into the back seat shielding JFK.

I think the assassin that was going to be up on the overpass was told it was going to be clear, no citizens no police...just fake Secret Service agents on the ground keeping people away....but those fake agents didnt get into position before 2 police officers and a few railway workers congregated upon the overpass from about an hour before the motorcade was due. When the assassin arrived they couldnt go up on the overpass.

Which means they went somewhere else?

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Yes.

Anywhere between the 1min20sec mark and onward in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGPN1Lm3cnw

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF6oevG06Xo

 

The end of that second video captures how the last section of the overpass walkway and concrete "railing" angles to the left walking across the overpass towards it.  Back towards the plaza itself.  Thus a shooter crouched beside the last concrete "post" would not be visible to others on the overpass.  Nor would he be obvious to others along the parade route focusing their attention on JFK.  He would only need to be in position from about the time the limo turned off main street.  A 22 for a throat shot would have sounded like a firecracker across the plaza.  Nor would a silenced De Lise carbine for a head shot be noticed.

Throw in a Cop for a guard to keep others away, look the other way and ignore the firecracker.

Soon as the shot is taken, while all are still focused on the limo, back over the tracks, down the hill to the gravel sparsely used parking lot below and running car with a driver/guard/spotter.

[Adam Johnson]

Taken Nov 25th 1963. Tell me again how someone standing 3,4 or 5 feet back from the overpass wall above right side of main or left side of commerce couldnt see the start of the overpass wall south knoll end.

Tell me how none of the 15 people on the overpass including 2 cops would not see someone with a rifle running back across the tracks towards the trinity river to get away. The trees were babys back then, the parking lot was open and visible, only parked cars provided cover....zoom in , please take a good close up look.

[Micah Mileto]

Wouldn't it just take one spotter casually standing and blocking the view of the sniper?

[Chris Davidson]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

 angles to the left walking across the overpass towards it. 

[Adam Johnson]

27 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

Wouldn't it just take one spotter casually standing and blocking the view of the sniper?

Hi Micah, 

The 2 cops were told to keep people off the overpass, the north knoll cop allowed the railway workers to stand there because they had been working on the tracks in that area during the morning. No one was photographed on the overpass on the south  knoll side on Nov 22nd. So the cop on that side of the overpass did his job.

A spotter or blocker would have drawn the attention of the cop to come over and investigate,  you can see from the aerial shot you couldnt be behind the start of the overpass wall and not been seen from someone standing behind the commerce st section up on the overpass just a couple of feet back from the wall...

All this to me is wasted breath.......Bill Greer never reacted at the start of the shooting like someone who had a bullet puncture thru the windshield 12-15 inches from his face.  He said in a N.C tv interview 2 years before he died he didnt realise they had been shot at until the second look over his shoulder when he saw blood on john connelys white shirt. The limo is photographed on elm st. at parkland and in the white house garage with only a crack in the windshield.  The FBI, reports taking bullet fragments from scrapings from the inside of the windshield. Plus the guy who spent Saturday  Sunday and Monday in the white house garage  working on replacing the limo flooring wrote reports stating he only saw a crack in the windshield.?.i think from memory  he even helped when the FBI/SS tried using their feet pushing to take it out of the limo.

Its a ridiculous shot to take, it has to be taken from a spot that is visible to a police officer if he walks or stands in the wrong place... if you get the first shot off are you sticking around to reload, reacquire your target and take another shot??? Three men are parked down on commerce street below you 30 to 50 feet away, are you sticking around taking another shot?? Are you leaving carrying your rifle by walking across 5 or 6 sets of railway tracks sliding down a 25 ft hill and into a waiting car unseen by the motorcycle cop blocking traffic on main street???....unseen by the 15 plus people up on the underpass???    And was all of the stated evidence above that say crack no thru n thru hole... was all that faked and lies.....

A thru in thru fired from the south knoll at Z215-Z223 didnt happen. There is too much evidence says it didnt happen and common sense says a riflemen wouldn't have tried to pull it off.

Put a shooter in the back of a flatbed truck parked up close to the fenceline on the south knoll, tell me he has clear shot at the president, tell me his shot doesnt have to go thru glass or metal to hit the target, tell me the shooter missed his range or pulled his shot low......i would be more inclined to give you credit.

 

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Chris, now take that photo 3 or 4 feet to your right away from the overpass wall, just on the other side of the new second fence, the small metal and concrete 2nd wall wasn't there in 63. Then take another photo at the start of commerce from over the new 2nd fence looking down to south knoll.  If the cop in 63 spent anytime 5 feet back from the overpass wall and above commerce st, you would have been visible at the start of the south knoll side of the overpass.

[Adam Johnson]

I just went back and read patrolman JC White's warren commission testimony...he was stationed on the overpass with patrolman JW Foster. Foster was standing with the railway men above elm st. White was stationed that day on the western side of the overpass the opposite side to stop people coming up onto the overpass...the only way to do that was climb up to the right(southside) of commerce st. Or the left side of elm st. (I remember stairs over that commerce side but i dont think they are its the facade of the wall looks like stairs). This was the opposite side of dealey plaza... it puts white in a position directly opposite the south knoll angled section of overpass wall. With a clear view to the popular firing position people in this thread like. Now white says at the time of the shooting he recalls a freight train going by....but no frieght train is seen moving in any assassination film. So if correct a train must have past by just before or just after the assassination.  White says he saw the limo only after it had come thru the underpass on its way to parkland.

So for a south knoll shooter theory did things just get better or worse with JC White prior to the motorcade standing across the tracks opposite the south knoll overpass wall?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Adam Johnson

[David Josephs]

On 10/28/2020 at 11:10 PM, Adam Johnson said:

All this to me is wasted breath.......Bill Greer never reacted at the start of the shooting like someone who had a bullet puncture thru the windshield 12-15 inches from his face. 

Hey there Adam.... 

Had you considered the amount of film removed at locations where these shots occur?

We've been thru the testing (Livingstone) which shows this movement in 1 frame (302-303) is not humanly possible...
It happens again just after 313.... (below)  this - among quite a lot of other evidence - proves the alteration of the film and the removal of reactions and shots talked about by those seeing a more intact film.

Now add Harley's burping along within 20 feet of the driver - and what do you suppose he'd hear as shots rain down on that limo?

On 10/29/2020 at 12:46 AM, Adam Johnson said:

So for a south knoll shooter theory did things just get better or worse with JC White prior to the motorcade standing across the tracks opposite the south knoll overpass wall?

 

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm. Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?
Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.

Inexplicably, WHITE claims a train passes INFRONT of him between him and the overpass railing... and the "X" he places puts him on the EAST side of the overpass, not WEST.... and at the SOUTH curb not NORTH...

Why do you suppose he has to fib about where he was and then admit he did NOT follow his orders - the WC lawyers don't seem to interested though. 

Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.
Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company?
Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails. (DJ: no one was working up there, just standing around)
Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?
Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?
Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?
Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it.

 

FWIW there was also no freight train at the time...  yet he makes it appear that he simply cannot see what's happening on the EAST side of the overpass over to the SOUTH...  hmmmm...

Why does a shot from the south bother you so?

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

When I visited Dealey in January, the first place I went was the South Knoll, as I believed that was only place a shot from the front could occur. As mentioned above there is a spot at the end of bridge that curves, and a shooter from there could not be seen by other people on the bridge. That is an absolute fact, and anyone can go to Dealey and see it for themselves. This is the view a shooter would have through the spaces in the stone: 

[Chris Davidson]

18 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

When I visited Dealey in January, the first place I went was the South Knoll, as I believed that was only place a shot from the front could occur. As mentioned above there is a spot at the end of bridge that curves, and a shooter from there could not be seen by other people on the bridge. That is an absolute fact, and anyone can go to Dealey and see it for themselves. This is the view a shooter would have through the spaces in the stone: 

 

 

Moving closer to Matt's location.

 

[Chris Bristow]

I have found one problem that complicates or limits the possible shooter locations for the 313 head shot from the south Knoll.
NOTE: I have deleted the content and image in this post and creating a new updated post today 12/10.

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Chris Bristow