The three tramps mystery

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Look at the shadows in the first picture.  Pretty pronounced for say 1:00 in the afternoon.  30 minutes after the assassination.  The railroad yard was flooded with cops searching it immediately after it.  Even if not till 1:30, long shadows for that time of day.

Look at the shadows of the people lining the sidewalk on Elm street in the Zapruder film as JFK's limo was driving past.

This was approximately 12:30 PM, yes?

Not only are they not as long as the shadows in the 3 tramp perp walk photo above, they are actually going toward the opposite direction!

In the 3 tramp perp walk picture the grassy knoll is to the left of the tramps and accompanying officers.

Their shadows are showing to the right, and as Ron Buhlman pointed out, very long in length.

Could shadows move that much in one hour?

According to Holt, they were arrested at 1:30 PM but said he didn't adjust his watch for CST. The three tramps were probably taken out of the box car around 2:30 PM.

5 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Hobo who turned his life around and somehow owned a ranch at Klamath Falls, Oregon and travels to Dallas Texas to collect money from an insurance company.  Only in America.

To me there is just something sinister about them 3 gentlemen.They might not have been triggerman,but they are dresssed to nice to be hobo's.How they left the scene seems suspicious.

Did I hear that radio equipment or a weapon was found on one of the tramps? Please advise.

5 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

To me there is just something sinister about them 3 gentlemen.They might not have been triggerman,but they are dresssed to nice to be hobo's.How they left the scene seems suspicious.

Did I hear that radio equipment or a weapon was found on one of the tramps? Please advise.

Yes, Holt was carrying a transistor radio as he was listening and following the parade. He also said it's how they found out about Tippit being shot. It wasn't a "typical radio" that you and I might think.

Execellent  ^^^

11 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

Yes, Holt was carrying a transistor radio as he was listening and following the parade. He also said it's how they found out about Tippit being shot. It wasn't a "typical radio" that you and I might think.

If the tramps were part of the plot — either as decoys or comms, etc. — are the unformed guys oblivious or are they playing supporting roles?

7 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

If the tramps were part of the plot — either as decoys or comms, etc. — are the unformed guys oblivious or are they playing supporting roles?

Are you referring to the police who escorted them? Marvin Wise and Billy Bass were the policemen according to Holt and was told there would be a demonstration against Kennedy in Dealey Plaza. Holt also indicated he had no idea about what was going to happen and said if he got wind of the event he wouldn't have been in Dallas.

1 hour ago, Paul Cummings said:

Are you referring to the police who escorted them? Marvin Wise and Billy Bass were the policemen according to Holt

Paul,

A number of other policemen from that same Second Platoon, Headquarters Station show up in the JFK story.

In addition to Marvin Wise, Billy Bass was one of the Patrolmen.

Sergeant Rio Pierce and Patrolman Ray Vaughn appear in the Oswald shooting on the 24th.

Joe M. Poe is at the scene of the Tippit shooting.

Captain Cecil Talbert takes command of the TSBD shooting scene and also shows up in the alley behind the Texas Theater.

John Adamcik searches the Paine home in Irving on the 22nd and 23rd.

Kenneth Lyon is one of the Policemen who drive Oswald from the Theater back to Headquarters.

Jimmy Valentine is the driver of of the infamous Car# 207.

Notorious group of people.

Steve Thomas

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

A number of other policemen from that same Second Platoon, Headquarters Station show up in the JFK story.

In addition to Marvin Wise, Billy Bass was one of the Patrolmen.

Sergeant Rio Pierce and Patrolman Ray Vaughn appear in the Oswald shooting on the 24th.

Joe M. Poe is at the scene of the Tippit shooting.

Captain Cecil Talbert takes command of the TSBD shooting scene and also shows up in the alley behind the Texas Theater.

John Adamcik searches the Paine home in Irving on the 22nd and 23rd.

Kenneth Lyon is one of the Policemen who drive Oswald from the Theater back to Headquarters.

Jimmy Valentine is the driver of of the infamous Car# 207.

Notorious group of people.

Steve Thomas

"Sergeant Rio Pierce and Patrolman Ray Vaughn appear in the Oswald shooting on the 24th."

Just an FYI, Pierce was a lieutenant, not a sergeant; and I think you mean Roy Vaughn (not Ray).

21 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

 

"Sergeant Rio Pierce and Patrolman Ray Vaughn appear in the Oswald shooting on the 24th."

 

Just an FYI, Pierce was a lieutenant, not a sergeant; and I think you mean Roy Vaughn (not Ray).

 

Bill,

Yes.

Thank you.

Steve Thomas

21 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bill,

Yes.

Thank you.

Steve Thomas

John Adamcik searches the Paine home in Irving on the 22nd and 23rd.

Steve, do you know whether SA Bard Odum was at the Paine home on either or both days that Adamcik was searching the house and garage?

On 7/12/2023 at 8:47 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

A number of other policemen from that same Second Platoon, Headquarters Station show up in the JFK story.

In addition to Marvin Wise, Billy Bass was one of the Patrolmen.

Sergeant Rio Pierce and Patrolman Ray Vaughn appear in the Oswald shooting on the 24th.

Joe M. Poe is at the scene of the Tippit shooting.

Captain Cecil Talbert takes command of the TSBD shooting scene and also shows up in the alley behind the Texas Theater.

John Adamcik searches the Paine home in Irving on the 22nd and 23rd.

Kenneth Lyon is one of the Policemen who drive Oswald from the Theater back to Headquarters.

Jimmy Valentine is the driver of of the infamous Car# 207.

Notorious group of people.

Steve Thomas

@Paul Cummings @Bill Brown @Steve Thomas

I ask about SA Odum, Steve, because he appeared on the scene at critical locations in the early hours and days of the investigation including several on your list:

The late great Raymond Gallagher referred to Dallas-based FBI SA Bardwell Dewitt Odum as "the ubiquitous bard":



Ruth's " Handler " Bardwell D. Odum, FBI SA
His office: The empty house next door to Ruth.

"It is twice the pleasure to deceive the deceiver."
Jean de La Fontaine (1621-1695) French poet.

Michael had known Agent Bardwell "Bob" Odum prior to
November 22nd. (9 H 444)

On page 783, in Vol. 15, of the Warren Commission Hearings, we see
the
name Odum listed twice, once as Bardwell D. Odum and again as Hart
Odum. Both listings are the same man. He was a special agent of the
FBI and was stationed in Dallas at the time of the JFK assassination.
His name is seldom mentioned by researchers, yet he was probably the
most assiduous investigator involved in the 1963-1964 investigation.

Odum was in the TSBD at the time that the murder weapon was found.
Later, Lt. Day drove Odum to the police station with the weapon. Odum
was seen and photographed leaving the building with Day at sometime
close to 1:45 pm.

Acording to Day, the agent used the car radio to contact his FBI
office to describe the rifle. 4H264, Meager, p.100.

SA James P. Hosty Jr. mentions the Bard numerous times, and it is
Hosty who is witness and reporter to the spirit-like nature of SA
Odum.

It was between 1:45 and 2:00 pm. that Odum and Day made the
delivery to Lt. Day's office at Main and Harwood Streets in downtown
Dallas. At the very same time, according to Hosty, Bardwell was at
the Texas Theater witnessing the arrest of LHO. Odum, himself made a
statement (HSCA document #01431) describing his observing the arrest.

His statement begins: "At approximately 2 p.m., November 22, 1963, I
was informed by an unidentified policeman of the DPD that a suspect
had been seen entering the back door of the Texas Theater. I
immediately proceeded to the Texas Theater...."

Dallas police radio transcripts reveal that at 1:51 pm. car No. 2
radioed to the dispatcher that they were on their way in with the
suspect (WR. p, 179).

Talk about double Oswalds, now we have a double Odum.

In Dallas, the agent was well acquainted with Michael and Ruth
Paine. Mike called the agent BOB; Ruth called him Mr. Odum and
sometimes Hart.

Additional notes on the bard:
Odum was never called before the Warren Commission and the only time he surfaces during the hearings was during Sylvio Odio's testimony. He walked in, stayed for only a few minutes, and left the room. Odum had also been present in Dallas Police HQ when the bogus photo of Oswald arrived from MC; despite Hosty's insistent the photo wasn't Oswald, Bard insisted that they take the photo to Marina for identification (where they were blocked by Marguerite).

Can you imagine if Oswald hadn't been in the Texas Theater?

Maybe hitched a ride on a highway out of town?

The DPD would have had a collective breakdown.

When was the TXSCB found rifle identified as a Carcano?

Constable Seymour Weitzman's initial ID of it as a Mauser made it all the way to the national media. 

How long before the DPD got word out that it was not a Mauser?

Did it take hours or many hours to change the national media reported story of the rifle being a Mauser?

Lt. Day took possession of the rifle from Fritz just minutes after Weitzman's Mauser ID.

It seems as if Weitzman himself wasn't made aware of his famous ID screwup until later.

He had to be told of his mistake, no?

You'd think Lt. Day would have spotted Weitzman's incorrect ID right there minutes after Weitzman gave the rifle it's first provenance.

25 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Did it take hours or many hours to change the national media reported story of the rifle being a Mauser?

According to "Accessories After The Fact", it was reported to be a Mauser for almost 24 hours. (I've also read that the rifle had initially been identified as a British Enfield as well.)

There's a hilarious footnote on pg. 97 of "Accessories..." that reads:

2 Gladwin Hill wrote in The New York Times of November 23, 1963 (p. 4, col. 2) that police ballistics experts were still studying the rifle, apparently with no conclusive findings, and that "Captain Fritz said it was of obscure foreign origin, possibly Italian, of about 1940 vintage, and of an unusual, undetermined caliber."

Police ballistics experts couldn't find the "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5" printed on the rifle, yet somehow non-rifle expert Mark Lane was able to find it. Strange!

The shells were found at 1'00 PM. The rifle was found at 1:22 PM.

The shells had already been bagged and tagged and entered into evidence by the time the rifle had been found.

I'll always believe in my hearts, with absolutely  no evidence whatsoever to back it up, that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong knd of shells.

You can't really have a 7.65 rifle with 6.5mm shells.

Steve Thomas