Did the "Big Fish" know

[Shanet Clark]

The timing was pretty tight, supposedly ninety seconds.

I don't think Oswald ever saw the "snipers nest" and was framed.

The palm print (post mortem?) and the lack of nitrates --- along with the

lunch room event --- point away from "Oswald, on the 6th floor, with a Mannlicher Carcano"

Has anyone else seen the Wim Dankbaar documents that point to only

two shells on the sixth floor....? The original report said two shells only...

Ron, you are the master of all testimony, what do you think of the

"two cartridge" theory.

Also I watched the MSNBC jfk special and it showed news footage of a

rifle being brought out and named as a "BRITISH 303"

Is a 303 the same as a 6.5?

Is the rifle in the newsreel a Mannlicher Carcano?

Of course I think 'they' used a stash of Il Duce high grade Carcanos with no serial numbers that Max Taylor got out of Mussolini's offices in Rome in 1943, "they"

shot Kennedy with one and then "found" the other one, all with the same added Serial # ...........this explains a number of otherwise impossible things about the rifle(s)..........

[Greg Wagner]

First of all, I'd like to express my condolences to John Simkin- no more fox hunting for you, John. Saw that on the "news" tonight. Oh well, all the more time you can spend with us now!

Shanet-

Interesting thoughts re: the blood, crossfire, etc. What about Tosh's abort team being the one's who fired at the assassins and drew blood? Is that a possibility? If we accept what Tosh states about the existence of an abort team in DP at the time, and I tend to believe him, could it be possible that they squeezed off a few rounds and hit an assassin or two?

The LHO theory works with regard to what he allegedly told Judyth, but didn't they do a parafin test on him after his arrest that determined that he had fired a pistol recently (residue on his hand) but NOT a rifle (none on his cheek)? Of course I have little faith in the "investigation" conducted, but if he had residue on his cheek, that would have been well documented since it would have helped to implicate LHO in the firing of the "murder weapon." Still, I guess he could have fired a pistol at that range, right?

I was not aware of the pool of blood near the "Lansdale" sighting. If indeed that was Lansdale, as Prouty insisted and many others have speculated, maybe that explains his presence at that particular location: "One of our guys got hit over there; Check it out; Delegate clean-up/cover-up."

[George Bollschweiler]

Shanet wrote:

Testimony and photos support it. Bill Miller and others downplay it as a soft drink.

One witness said he tasted it and confirmed it was blood, but I think that was the "Lansdale gate" puddle, not the one at the wall.

I remember that Malcolm Couch testified about the blood spot but also interesting is his statement of a "chase" goinig on around the TSBD. Was that just his excitement or has anyone more on that story?

Mr. BELIN - That would be the west side of the Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH - That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH - That's right.

Mr. BELIN - Where was that?

Mr. COUCH - This was the little walkway - steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. COUCH - Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN - About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. COUCH - Uh - from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. BELIN - Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

Mr. COUCH - No; no one knew. People were watching it - that is watching it carefully and walking and pointing to it. Uh - just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran - uh - northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that - uh - that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All of those policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs and that west corner and - uh - you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A.J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mr. BELIN - This pool of blood - about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes under the expressway?

Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?

Mr. BELIN - Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway?

Mr. COUCH - I'd say - uh - 50 to 60 feet, and about 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - It would be somewhere along that park area there?

Mr. COUCH - Right.

Mr. BELIN - Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?

Mr. COUCH - No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but -

Mr. BELIN - There was nothing?

George

[John Ritchson]

Shanet-

Interesting thoughts re: the blood, crossfire, etc. What about Tosh's abort team being the one's who fired at the assassins and drew blood? Is that a possibility? If we accept what Tosh states about the existence of an abort team in DP at the time, and I tend to believe him, could it be possible that they squeezed off a few rounds and hit an assassin or two?

Greetings Greg:

As Al Carrier and I firmly agree on...that the assassination was a military operation there would most certainly have been an abort team present as such would have been SOP for an operation of this caliber and magnitude. At this point I see no evidence which tends to negate Tosh's account and find his general accounting to be quite believable, based upon my own experiences in such matters.

The LHO theory works with regard to what he allegedly told Judyth, but didn't they do a parafin test on him after his arrest that determined that he had fired a pistol recently (residue on his hand) but NOT a rifle (none on his cheek)? Of course I have little faith in the "investigation" conducted, but if he had residue on his cheek, that would have been well documented since it would have helped to implicate LHO in the firing of the "murder weapon." Still, I guess he could have fired a pistol at that range, right?

According to the Helson and Barnes Empirical study of Gunpowder Residue Patterns, all firearm discharges produce upwards to 20% or more of gunpowder residue in the form of partially burned and unburned gunpowder particles which will be deposited on various parts of the shooter's body, mostly on the hands and face of the shooter.

This gunpowder residue can be easily lifted from the shooter by covering the affected area with hot wax that when cooled will lift the now embedded gunpowder from the shooter's body and can be physically examined, identified and quantified by microscopic examination as well as chemically tested to determine type and composition of the gunpowder, and can be forensically matched to the weapon establishing a forensic connection to the shooter.

Since such gunpowder residue is physically embedded in the skin of the shooter it cannot be easily removed by any other means including washing the effected area with with anything short of certain solvents and even then, all it requires is a single grain left behind to establish such a forensic connection.

Such a test is SOP in gunshot cases and the technology was well in place in 1963 and would have been extreamly critical with respect to Lee Oswald since he worked in a book depository which contains nitrates present as part of the paper making process. Therefore, Lee would have been covered with such nitrates which minus the above aformentioned examination would have yielded a false positive with respect to his having recently discharged a weapon.

Having fired multible shots from two different weapons as is alledged, Lee would have been literally covered with actual gunpowder embedded in his skin.

That no such test was performed or if performed proved negative is evidenced by the fact that no such report has ever been made public, and I'm fairly certain that if such a test was in fact performed and proved positive it would most certainly have been paraded to the public a long time ago.

This missing report was the first indication to me that Lee Oswald was not the lone nut assassin that he was made out to be and is what started me on the road to investigating all of the evidence against him, upon which I determined that Lee Harvey Oswald was most probably innocent of the murder of Jack Kennedy and was in fact set-up as the proverbial patsy to cover-up the real conspiracy.

Respectfully:

[snipped for Brevity]

[John Ritchson]

The timing was pretty tight, supposedly ninety seconds.

I don't think Oswald ever saw the "snipers nest" and was framed.

The palm print (post mortem?) and the lack of nitrates --- along with the

lunch room event --- point away from "Oswald, on the 6th floor, with a Mannlicher Carcano"

Greetings Shanet:

The timing was too damned tight...think about it, this man was just supposed to have killed the president of the United States and is seen just a short while later [Calmly] drinking a soda. Now, as any police officer can tell you, one of the first clues that point to a suspect is his/her demeaner, physical condition, and attitude when initially confronted. Lee Oswald would have been stinking of adrenalin. His heart would have been racing. His pupils dialated. He would have been physically shaking. Police are trained and conditioned to spot the many tell-tale signs of guilt and there is absolutely no indication that Lee Oswald had that sort of ice-water demeanor that could fool trained observers who are alert to the possibility that anyone they saw was a potential suspect. That dog just don't hunt!

Has anyone else seen the Wim Dankbaar documents that point to only

two shells on the sixth floor....? The original report said two shells only...

Ron, you are the master of all testimony, what do you think of the

"two cartridge" theory.

See my article on the cartridges. The spent cartridges I measured out using precision dial calipers and protractor showed that they were in fact 6.5X54mm Austrian Mannlicher Schoenauer cartridges which cannot be chambered and fired from any Carcano rifle, as was first proposed by Walt Cakebread.

Also I watched the MSNBC jfk special and it showed news footage of a

rifle being brought out and named as a "BRITISH 303"

Is a 303 the same as a 6.5?

A 6.5mm caliber in the english system is nominally .264" while the Brit .303" is a 30 caliber which makes the 6.5mm .039" smaller. Also, the .303 has a very distinctive external magazine and turn-bolt action that is unmistakable from any other rifle and is not even close in appearence to any Carcano or Mauser action rifle.

Is the rifle in the newsreel a Mannlicher Carcano?

I didn't see the program. Could you possibly post a photo of the rifle in question?

Of course I think 'they' used a stash of Il Duce high grade Carcanos with no serial numbers that Max Taylor got out of Mussolini's offices in Rome in 1943, "they"

shot Kennedy with one and then "found" the other one, all with the same added Serial # ...........this explains a number of otherwise impossible things about the rifle(s)..........

Please see my article on the forging of serial numbers and for some highgrade comparison photos on this issue I would refer you to jerrymac's website where he has those photos posted along with my evaluations. I think you will find them quite revealing.

Respectfully:

[Greg Wagner]

Shanet-

Interesting thoughts re: the blood, crossfire, etc. What about Tosh's abort team being the one's who fired at the assassins and drew blood? Is that a possibility? If we accept what Tosh states about the existence of an abort team in DP at the time, and I tend to believe him, could it be possible that they squeezed off a few rounds and hit an assassin or two?

Greetings Greg:

As Al Carrier and I firmly agree on...that the assassination was a military operation there would most certainly have been an abort team present as such would have been SOP for an operation of this caliber and magnitude. At this point I see no evidence which tends to negate Tosh's account and find his general accounting to be quite believable, based upon my own experiences in such matters.

The LHO theory works with regard to what he allegedly told Judyth, but didn't they do a parafin test on him after his arrest that determined that he had fired a pistol recently (residue on his hand) but NOT a rifle (none on his cheek)? Of course I have little faith in the "investigation" conducted, but if he had residue on his cheek, that would have been well documented since it would have helped to implicate LHO in the firing of the "murder weapon." Still, I guess he could have fired a pistol at that range, right?

According to the Helson and Barnes Empirical study of Gunpowder Residue Patterns, all firearm discharges produce upwards to 20% or more of gunpowder residue in the form of partially burned and unburned gunpowder particles which will be deposited on various parts of the shooter's body, mostly on the hands and face of the shooter.

This gunpowder residue can be easily lifted from the shooter by covering the affected area with hot wax that when cooled will lift the now embedded gunpowder from the shooter's body and can be physically examined, identified and quantified by microscopic examination as well as chemically tested to determine type and composition of the gunpowder, and can be forensically matched to the weapon establishing a forensic connection to the shooter.

Since such gunpowder residue is physically embedded in the skin of the shooter it cannot be easily removed by any other means including washing the effected area with with anything short of certain solvents and even then, all it requires is a single grain left behind to establish such a forensic connection.

Such a test is SOP in gunshot cases and the technology was well in place in 1963 and would have been extreamly critical with respect to Lee Oswald since he worked in a book depository which contains nitrates present as part of the paper making process. Therefore, Lee would have been covered with such nitrates which minus the above aformentioned examination would have yielded a false positive with respect to his having recently discharged a weapon.

Having fired multible shots from two different weapons as is alledged, Lee would have been literally covered with actual gunpowder embedded in his skin.

That no such test was performed or if performed proved negative is evidenced by the fact that no such report has ever been made public, and I'm fairly certain that if such a test was in fact performed and proved positive it would most certainly have been paraded to the public a long time ago.

This missing report was the first indication to me that Lee Oswald was not the lone nut assassin that he was made out to be and is what started me on the road to investigating all of the evidence against him, upon which I determined that Lee Harvey Oswald was most probably innocent of the murder of Jack Kennedy and was in fact set-up as the proverbial patsy to cover-up the real conspiracy.

Respectfully:

[snipped for Brevity]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John-

Thanks for the lesson on the Gunpowder Resisue issue. Very thorough and well expalined.

Can you expand a little bit on the abort team issue? I too, tend to believe Tosh, but I'm somewhat unclear as to what he states took place with said team after they arrived in DP. Nothing? Being familiar with Tosh's assertions and SOP for operations such as this, do you feel like it's a possibility that they actually may have attempted to abort the assassination by firing at one or more of the gunmen, thus creating one or both of the pools of blood in question? I'm just speculating here. What are your thoughts on that scenario?

Edited February 18, 2005 by Greg Wagner

[Antti Hynonen]

Shanet-

Interesting thoughts re: the blood, crossfire, etc. What about Tosh's abort team being the one's who fired at the assassins and drew blood? Is that a possibility? If we accept what Tosh states about the existence of an abort team in DP at the time, and I tend to believe him, could it be possible that they squeezed off a few rounds and hit an assassin or two?

Greetings Greg:

As Al Carrier and I firmly agree on...that the assassination was a military operation there would most certainly have been an abort team present as such would have been SOP for an operation of this caliber and magnitude. At this point I see no evidence which tends to negate Tosh's account and find his general accounting to be quite believable, based upon my own experiences in such matters.

The LHO theory works with regard to what he allegedly told Judyth, but didn't they do a parafin test on him after his arrest that determined that he had fired a pistol recently (residue on his hand) but NOT a rifle (none on his cheek)? Of course I have little faith in the "investigation" conducted, but if he had residue on his cheek, that would have been well documented since it would have helped to implicate LHO in the firing of the "murder weapon." Still, I guess he could have fired a pistol at that range, right?

According to the Helson and Barnes Empirical study of Gunpowder Residue Patterns, all firearm discharges produce upwards to 20% or more of gunpowder residue in the form of partially burned and unburned gunpowder particles which will be deposited on various parts of the shooter's body, mostly on the hands and face of the shooter.

This gunpowder residue can be easily lifted from the shooter by covering the affected area with hot wax that when cooled will lift the now embedded gunpowder from the shooter's body and can be physically examined, identified and quantified by microscopic examination as well as chemically tested to determine type and composition of the gunpowder, and can be forensically matched to the weapon establishing a forensic connection to the shooter.

Since such gunpowder residue is physically embedded in the skin of the shooter it cannot be easily removed by any other means including washing the effected area with with anything short of certain solvents and even then, all it requires is a single grain left behind to establish such a forensic connection.

Such a test is SOP in gunshot cases and the technology was well in place in 1963 and would have been extreamly critical with respect to Lee Oswald since he worked in a book depository which contains nitrates present as part of the paper making process. Therefore, Lee would have been covered with such nitrates which minus the above aformentioned examination would have yielded a false positive with respect to his having recently discharged a weapon.

Having fired multible shots from two different weapons as is alledged, Lee would have been literally covered with actual gunpowder embedded in his skin.

That no such test was performed or if performed proved negative is evidenced by the fact that no such report has ever been made public, and I'm fairly certain that if such a test was in fact performed and proved positive it would most certainly have been paraded to the public a long time ago.

This missing report was the first indication to me that Lee Oswald was not the lone nut assassin that he was made out to be and is what started me on the road to investigating all of the evidence against him, upon which I determined that Lee Harvey Oswald was most probably innocent of the murder of Jack Kennedy and was in fact set-up as the proverbial patsy to cover-up the real conspiracy.

Respectfully:

[snipped for Brevity]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John-

Thanks for the lesson on the Gunpowder Resisue issue. Very thorough and well expalined.

Can you expand a little bit on the abort team issue? I too, tend to believe Tosh, but I'm somewhat unclear as to what he states took place with said team after they arrived in DP. Nothing? Being familiar with Tosh's assertions and SOP for operations such as this, do you feel like it's a possibility that they actually may have attempted to abort the assassination by firing at one or more of the gunmen, thus creating one or both of the pools of blood in question? I'm just speculating here. What are your thoughts on that scenario?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greg,

Some of the info your asking about is available on an earlier thread with Robert "Tosh" Plumlee's name in the thread. We had a pretty good Q&A with him a while back.

Basically Tosh was the (co-)pilot on this flight and was only told where to fly with the folks on board (he was not part of the actual abort team, as I recall). Once in Dallas at Red Bird, after most passengers had left, Tosh and Sergio went to Dealy Plaza and got there right around 12:30 to see if they could be of help to the abort team, Sergio was on the inside, Tosh wasn't. It was Sergio's call to go waltz around the Plaza at that time.

I don't know if Tosh was told of too many details of who was supposed to do exactly what and where and at what time.

Other members could possibly add to this and correct me if I've misstated anything. The best source, right now is the Plumlee thread, as Tosh isn't posting for the moment.

[Greg Wagner]

Shanet-

Interesting thoughts re: the blood, crossfire, etc. What about Tosh's abort team being the one's who fired at the assassins and drew blood? Is that a possibility? If we accept what Tosh states about the existence of an abort team in DP at the time, and I tend to believe him, could it be possible that they squeezed off a few rounds and hit an assassin or two?

Greetings Greg:

As Al Carrier and I firmly agree on...that the assassination was a military operation there would most certainly have been an abort team present as such would have been SOP for an operation of this caliber and magnitude. At this point I see no evidence which tends to negate Tosh's account and find his general accounting to be quite believable, based upon my own experiences in such matters.

The LHO theory works with regard to what he allegedly told Judyth, but didn't they do a parafin test on him after his arrest that determined that he had fired a pistol recently (residue on his hand) but NOT a rifle (none on his cheek)? Of course I have little faith in the "investigation" conducted, but if he had residue on his cheek, that would have been well documented since it would have helped to implicate LHO in the firing of the "murder weapon." Still, I guess he could have fired a pistol at that range, right?

According to the Helson and Barnes Empirical study of Gunpowder Residue Patterns, all firearm discharges produce upwards to 20% or more of gunpowder residue in the form of partially burned and unburned gunpowder particles which will be deposited on various parts of the shooter's body, mostly on the hands and face of the shooter.

This gunpowder residue can be easily lifted from the shooter by covering the affected area with hot wax that when cooled will lift the now embedded gunpowder from the shooter's body and can be physically examined, identified and quantified by microscopic examination as well as chemically tested to determine type and composition of the gunpowder, and can be forensically matched to the weapon establishing a forensic connection to the shooter.

Since such gunpowder residue is physically embedded in the skin of the shooter it cannot be easily removed by any other means including washing the effected area with with anything short of certain solvents and even then, all it requires is a single grain left behind to establish such a forensic connection.

Such a test is SOP in gunshot cases and the technology was well in place in 1963 and would have been extreamly critical with respect to Lee Oswald since he worked in a book depository which contains nitrates present as part of the paper making process. Therefore, Lee would have been covered with such nitrates which minus the above aformentioned examination would have yielded a false positive with respect to his having recently discharged a weapon.

Having fired multible shots from two different weapons as is alledged, Lee would have been literally covered with actual gunpowder embedded in his skin.

That no such test was performed or if performed proved negative is evidenced by the fact that no such report has ever been made public, and I'm fairly certain that if such a test was in fact performed and proved positive it would most certainly have been paraded to the public a long time ago.

This missing report was the first indication to me that Lee Oswald was not the lone nut assassin that he was made out to be and is what started me on the road to investigating all of the evidence against him, upon which I determined that Lee Harvey Oswald was most probably innocent of the murder of Jack Kennedy and was in fact set-up as the proverbial patsy to cover-up the real conspiracy.

Respectfully:

[snipped for Brevity]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi John-

Thanks for the lesson on the Gunpowder Resisue issue. Very thorough and well expalined.

Can you expand a little bit on the abort team issue? I too, tend to believe Tosh, but I'm somewhat unclear as to what he states took place with said team after they arrived in DP. Nothing? Being familiar with Tosh's assertions and SOP for operations such as this, do you feel like it's a possibility that they actually may have attempted to abort the assassination by firing at one or more of the gunmen, thus creating one or both of the pools of blood in question? I'm just speculating here. What are your thoughts on that scenario?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greg,

Some of the info your asking about is available on an earlier thread with Robert "Tosh" Plumlee's name in the thread. We had a pretty good Q&A with him a while back.

Basically Tosh was the (co-)pilot on this flight and was only told where to fly with the folks on board (he was not part of the actual abort team, as I recall). Once in Dallas at Red Bird, after most passengers had left, Tosh and Sergio went to Dealy Plaza and got there right around 12:30 to see if they could be of help to the abort team, Sergio was on the inside, Tosh wasn't. It was Sergio's call to go waltz around the Plaza at that time.

I don't know if Tosh was told of too many details of who was supposed to do exactly what and where and at what time.

Other members could possibly add to this and correct me if I've misstated anything. The best source, right now is the Plumlee thread, as Tosh isn't posting for the moment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Antti-

Thanks for the information. I went back and read many of Tosh's posts, but perhaps I need to do it again. I just don't recall him saying much about what the team did once in DP. I'll search his postings again.

[John Ritchson]

Hi John-

Thanks for the lesson on the Gunpowder Residue issue. Very thorough and well explained.

Can you expand a little bit on the abort team issue? I too, tend to believe Tosh, but I'm somewhat unclear as to what he states took place with said team after they arrived in DP. Nothing? Being familiar with Tosh's assertions and SOP for operations such as this, do you feel like it's a possibility that they actually may have attempted to abort the assassination by firing at one or more of the gunmen, thus creating one or both of the pools of blood in question? I'm just speculating here. What are your thoughts on that scenario?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greg:

Antti is quite correct in his understanding of Tosh's role in the Assassination. He was simply a co-pilot and played a very limited role. He would not necessarily have had access to operational details beyond his actual duties. However, that said, Tosh is no dummy and would have been closely studing and evaluating every aspect of the events as they unfolded and so would thus have gained a much clearer picture of events above and beyond his actual need to know perspective. Of this I'm fairly certain. Just how much? Only Tosh himself knows that. But, what he has chosen to reveal shows to me at least that he knows a lot more than he was supposed to.

The abort team could very well have had a secondary mission objective; that of taking out the actual kill-shooters thus eliminating a very important link in the chain of evidence and/or they may have had clean-up duties such as eliminating first hand witnesses and/or the back-up shooters etc. but this is merely speculation on my part based upon my experience in such matters. It's kind of like building a secret chamber in a building. It's only a secret after those who built it are eliminated;a fairly common practice in days past. Apply that principal to the JFK case and walla!...all of a sudden a bunch of people closest to the actual killing are themselves disposed of and the secret chamber remains a secret, and the only ones left behind either have insurance policies or they are in no position to pose a threat to the conspiracy.

I think Tosh has/had a bit of both working on his side which is why he is still around to tell the tale as it were, because I can speak from first-hand experience that even today people who get too close to certain aspects of the JFK case very often find themselves the subjects of extream predjudice which can and do take form in all ways and means.

Hell, this can become so convoluted that even the abort team can be aborted in a wheels within wheels type scenerio.

One must keep in mind that we are basically dealing with lunatics here; people in which the aquiring, maintenance and exersizing of power for its own sake is what delineates and defines their existence; people who are capable of doing anything to actualize their agenda which in the JFK case was nothing short of world domination by very publicly taking control of the most powerful nation on earth; many of the very same people who are running things to this day, or at least their successors; organizations that plan a thousand years in advance.

IMHO, the day our 35th president was very publically murdered was the day WWII ended and "WE THE PEOPLE" lost, and we now have a government whose leaders possess power far beyond the wildest dreams of any king or dictator that came before while we are being held hostage by the ever present threat of nuclear anihilation and our children are being dumbed down into good little corporate consumers in the indoctrination centers we call schools, and who are content to live in a X-Box world while eating Big Macs, and watching reruns of Leave it to Beaver.

In the meantime, our planet is going to hell in a hand-basket and anyone with the cajones to stand up and be counted soon finds themselves the object of some rather nasty attention by the powers that be.

Mark my words on this or not as you see fit but the die has been set and the curse it is cast and if we don't get off of our collective arses real soon and start restoring some semblance of sanity to this world we are going to find ourselves up the proverbial fecal creek without a paddle, and we will have deserved it.

The JFK murder was just the beginning. We are now starting to reap the whirlwind.

So batton down the hatches and damn the torpedos and full speed ahead.

Not LHO, not with that rifle and not from that position.

Just some thoughts from an old gunsmith.

Respectfully:

********************************************************************

We are the unwilling, led by the unqualified, to do the unnecessary, for the ungrateful, by the unknown.

********************************************************************

Edited February 18, 2005 by John Ritchson

[Shanet Clark]

John,

I was watching an old news clip of the Dallas TSBD on 11/22/63

and the authorities brought out a rifle

with a scope. The newscaster said they had found a BRITISH 303.

What is a British 303? Is it the same as a MC 6.5?

What with the Mauser (7.6?) this makes for 3 SMOKING GUNS....

Have you seen this TV video?

Is the gun the same as the "Hidell" rifle?

thanks

Shanet

[John Ritchson]

John,

I was watching an old news clip of the Dallas TSBD on 11/22/63

and the authorities brought out a rifle

with a scope. The newscaster said they had found a BRITISH 303.

What is a British 303? Is it the same as a MC 6.5?

What with the Mauser (7.6?) this makes for 3 SMOKING GUNS....

Have you seen this TV video?

Is the gun the same as the "Hidell" rifle?

thanks

Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings Shanet:

See my earlier reply on the issue of the 6.5 and the Brit .303. Needless to say the two are unmistakable, both possessing unique features.

A 6.5mm caliber in the english system is nominally .264" while the Brit .303" is a 30 caliber which makes the 6.5mm .039" smaller. Also, the .303 has a very distinctive external magazine and turn-bolt action that is unmistakable from any other rifle and is not even close in appearence to any Carcano or Mauser action rifle.

The firearms expert from the Dallas Sheriff's Dept. indentified the rifle found at the TSBD as a 7.62mm Mauser, and if memory servers the AP wire service reported initially that the rifle was a 30-30.

So counting the 6.5 Carcano I see 4 [smoking-Guns] here.

Respectfully:

Edited February 19, 2005 by John Ritchson

[Chuck Robbins]

John,

I was watching an old news clip of the Dallas TSBD on 11/22/63

and the authorities brought out a rifle

with a scope. The newscaster said they had found a BRITISH 303.

What is a British 303? Is it the same as a MC 6.5?

What with the Mauser (7.6?) this makes for 3 SMOKING GUNS....

Have you seen this TV video?

Is the gun the same as the "Hidell" rifle?

thanks

Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

Wesley Frazier owned a .303 enfield rifle. He was arrested and his rifle was held as evidence. This is documented in the DPD archives. I will find the document for you if you want to see it.

I found the file from the DPD archives and added it for reference.

Also, to answer the question of when it was known, and by whom, that Oswald was working the TSBD? This from NARA.

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : SSCIA

RECORD NUMBER : 157-10004-10035

RECORDS SERIES : AIRTEL

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : SAC, DALLAS

TO : DIR., FBI & SAC, LITTLE ROCK & NO

TITLE : LEE HARVEY OSWALD, INTERNAL SECURITY - RUSSIA - CUBA

DATE : 11/04/1963

PAGES : 1

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : OSWALD, LEE HARVEY; EMPLOYMENT; TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK

DEPOSITORY

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL

CURRENT STATUS : OPEN

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/09/1994

Chuck

Edited September 26, 2005 by Chuck Robbins

[Robert Howard]

As to Roberdeau's question about the Connally marriage, I believe they were devoted to each other.  As to Connally's possible lack of concern for his own life, well, perhaps that can be traced to his daughter's tragic suicide.  That's the kind of thing that changes a man.  This is all conjecture, of course.  Still,  I believe Connally's possible role has been rejected offhand by too many.

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My recollection about Connally's daughter is that she was not

a suicide, but was shot by her husband in a domestic dispute.

Her husband was the son of a former FBI man.

Jack

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Love this thread, IMO and based on the statements of Jerry Bruno re: conflicts setting the motorcade route, it appears Connally was much more involved with the fateful decisions about the route than the average researcher realized. I think it is also interesting to mention that Connally left the Democratic Party and became a Republican before his political career ended, as wll as being a member of the Suite 8-F Group and tied to the Johnson tainted vote scandal in Jim Wells County in 1948.

But back to the salient points on this thread, regarding the motorcade route and potential other areas which tie-in, I suggest those who have posted to this thread look at the JFK Forum Index listing for Harry Holmes (Postal Inspector)who viewed the assassination through 7 1/2 by 50 binoculars at the Terminal Annex Bdlg and was also an FBI Informant who sat in on Oswald's interrogation. As for the need for a second patsy I think Oswald's friend "Buell Wesley Frazier" got tied up in some sort of "problem" with the FBI regarding a .303 Rifle. My guess is that he was threatened by the FBI to become part of the lone-nut advocate camp, if he didn't want to go down with the ship alongside Lee Harvey himself.

[Lee Forman]

This was a farily long thread - and since I only now read it - had some comments.

I can't remember why I was looking into info on June Cobb - but I saw something posted about her today, so I tried retracing my steps - found this as part of the Escalante interview and thought it was interesting.

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_026-050/doc0027-4.html

But while we were talking here today, something that came to mind was my

interview with June COBB. And she was discussing the twist party and this was the beginning of the

story of OSWALD's extra-marital affairs. June COBB stayed with ELENA GARRO in the days after

the assassination and talked to her at length about this supposed party. And what JUNE COBB said

was that the people who were invited were predominantly left wing, local left wing people. And

ELENA GARRO was out of sorts and disgusted in that way. But the impression that was generated

by these events, was that the Cuban community in Mexico City was being organized for the purpose

of effecting OSWALD's escape after the assassination. Therefore further implicating the Cubans in

the story. And this story comes to us from a CIA informant, JUNE COBB. What I find interesting

about this is the nexus of OSWALD and ELENA GARRO and local left wing Cubans in Mexico City

before the assassination. So it would be an example of a story put together prior to November 22,

which, if it had followed through would have been very bad for Cuba.

As cited before, John Martino made the statement, 'Had Oswald escaped to Cuba.' Indeed, I think that this was part of the plan. It's still a matter of speculation, but I see the details concerning Oswald's description as perhaps being released prematurely. Then Johnny Calvin Brewer throws a wrench in the gears, and Oswald is unfortunately discovered at his pre-arranged meeting location - and the rest is history. One can't help wonder if Oswald had an assignment - beyond simply being a Patsy. I had a source tell me something about that once, but it's unsubstantiated - as is all of this - what a shame.

More speculation, but not mine - from Jim Phelps site - has Nixon selecting the conference center, which is only a few short blocks from DP - as the site for the National Bottler's convention. This is the reason, he says, why Nixon initially distanced himself and lied about attending this convention. There were questions as to the existence of said Bottler's convention - someone came forward somewhere [reference forgotten] and said that his Father had attended it. Norman Similias claimed that he was in Dallas to attend this convention and that VP LBJ attended, was interviewed and photographed by Similas - who was working on behalf of a Canadian Beverage Magazine. There is a nice photo [credit to Robin Unger?] of a stalled bus - along the path of the motorcade route - emblazoned in large letters on the side of the bus it says 'Welcome to the National Bottler's Convention' or something to that effect. Interesting.

On the pools of blood - there are issues. There are as many as 4 possible locations for such pools.

1. - Behind the retaining wall

2 - In the parking area

3 - Behind the walled walkway at the Pergola gardens

4 - On the sidewalk at the TSBD, near the loading docks.

I don't have references for all of these, but that is what I have managed to put together. The one pool of blood in the parking area was allegedly parked over by a car. It may be possible that 3 and 4 are the same pool.

Roberdeau's excellent plat captures the locations of 2 - perhaps the other one is where he has the DPD patrol car parked.

There is also the bloody piece of hairy flesh seen by Couch in the hands of an FBI agent [his words] as he emerged from the TSBD.

The account I heard relative to one of the pools of blood [#3] was a stabbing. Performed by one of the operatives, who was confronted following the shooting by a photographer who was seeking to stop him. Unsubstantiated.

On Patsies - I am inclined to agree with John. One can't help but wonder if one of these pools of blood was the result of a botched effort to leave behind a body - someone that would easily be connected to Oswald, Cuba and Communism. Alternatively, the victim of return fire [Jean Hill's testimony], or the result of an SS man that may have been stationed by SAIC Sorrels on the knoll in deputized fashion - I saw that reference somewhere - can find it if someone wants it - which would account for the first day reports about an SS man also being killed. I once thought that perhaps these pools may be the result of bleeding by one individual - that does not make sense, given the distance and lack of relationship these pools have with one another.

All just speculation - but interesting nonetheless?

- lee

[Chuck Robbins]

Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches. (Larry Hancock)

I think there are very important points being raised in this thread. If LHO was brought to the motorcade route rather than vice versa, does that not necessarily implicate in the conspiracy the persons who got LHO the job in the TSBD? (Tim Gratz)

IMO, this is one of the most powerful threads that has been presented in some time in trying to track down who staged the assassination. I do believe that too much is given to the route as part of the conspiracy as we must remember the purpose of the Texas trip was exposure to the citizens of Texas with JFK, LBJ, JBC and RY all present in the motorcade. The trip through downtown was neccessary and DP was a neccessity for this route. Positioning Oswald was a key point for a fall guy, but if issues came up and their would have been an alternative route, I am sure their would have been another patsy and team placement ready to go for that. Larry and others have pointed out other places of employment for LHO to cover other venues of operation, which is an excellent and evidentiary point. As Dallas became the third of such planned operations, I believe they had other venues of assault prepared as a fall back. This does not however take away the importance of the link as to who was knowlegable of the events that transpired leading up to this and the documents listed in this thread that supports it.

I believe we are now actually getting somewhere as to the planners...

No surprise who is adding to this thread!

Al

There is a report in the Dallas Archives, based upon a statement given by an unnamed attorney who accompanied a dancer, whose stage name was Robin Hood, to Ruby's club trying to book employment for the

stripper.

This unnamed attorney gave information that he witnessed LHO speaking with Jack Ruby in the strip joint. The attorney overheard the conversation between Oswald and Ruby. The conversation centered upon a request, made by Oswald, for some payment in advance for the job of shooting Gov. Connally. The shooting was to be done from inside Ruby's club according to the report.

The odd thing about this report is that it reads more like a transcription from a conversation recorded via a wire. Whether that wire, presuming my suspicion is correct, was on a person or hardwired into the building is obviously impossible to tell.

I can only suggest that you read the report for yourself, then, ask yourself if anyone could have possibly recalled a very lengthy conversation, months after the fact, with the degree of specificity extant within this report.

Elements of the report include far too much detail to have been produced from memory. Of course, if the attorney possessed a photographic memory........well, you know...."if pigs had wings".

I'm searching for the report and will edit this post to reflect it's location, at the archives, as soon as I am able to locate it within my pathetically organized collection of files.

I found the copies in my records. The file numbers are 2762-001 through 2762-007. The box number is not noted in my records, so, Maybe a search of the DPD archives site will furnish the exact location if any are interested?

Maybe I'll post only the images which show the unusually detailed statements claimed to have been overheard between Ruby & LHO.

I have just added one page as an example of how this report reads more like a transcript of a recorded conversation than as an interview done from memory.

Chuck

Edited February 6, 2006 by Chuck Robbins