18 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

It did seem irregular, but Moyers was a key

advance man for Kennedy's Texas trip, and

LBJ was his boss. Moyers also helped

publicize the motorcade route. The Secret Service and the

politicians often get into turf battles, even though

the Secret Service is supposed to have the last

word on security matters. It's odd that Moyers

has never written the autobiography that would

have been expected from him, but he has too many

controversial actions to hide.

I saw your twin brother on CNN last night- ever heard of Director Steven Spielberg?

13 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The bone found by Kinney was the large triangular fragment subsequently x-rayed at Bethesda. I can't recall, Vince, Did Kinney say it had hair on it? 

Hi, Pat! From my first book:

Sam stated, “I saw all three shots hit,” without acknowledging the known missed shot(s); even Governor Connally and Dave Powers did not acknowledge a missed shot.151 In regard to JFK’s head wound, the author inquired, “Was the back of Kennedy’s head really gone?” To which Kinney responded, “Yeah … He had no brain left – it was blown out. Clint Hill and I unloaded him out of the car. There was nothing left … [it was] the whole back of the head as far as I am concerned. I saw it hit and I saw his hair come out … I had brain matter all over my windshield and left arm, that’s how close we were to it … it was the right rear part of his head152 … because that’s the part I saw blow out. I saw hair come out, the piece blow out, then the skin went back in – an explosion in and out.”153 Elaborating further, Sam said, after being told that’s where the Parkland doctors saw the wound, “I would say that, too … it involved half his head.” Asked to explain the 1500 gram brain at the autopsy (the upper limit of a normal, undamaged brain), Sam seemed perplexed, saying, “there was brain matter all over the place. Mr. Connally even said he was covered with it.” Sam also said, in regard to the “Today” show interview of 11/22/93,154 “I told them ‘I’m going to tell you some things that haven’t been in books yet’: I brought a piece of the President’s skull back in my suit pocket. Now, all these books are wondering about this hole, this unbelievable missing part. I got the answer to that but nobody’s called me … I went over that automobile coming home … I found it on the plane [C-130] in the car and I put a phone patch in to Admiral Burkley155 who was a very good friend of mine – he was one hell of a man; I’ve got his picture hanging on my wall along with the president’s and I thought just as much of him as I did them.” Returning to the skull fragment, Kinney added that it looked “like a piece of a flowerpot, clean as a pin … like piece of a clay pot – there wasn’t blood or hair or anything on it … I don’t know what else it could have been but the back of his head … mine was a big piece … I told him [Burkley], ‘I may have something that is crucial to the autopsy’ … I gave it [the fragment] to one of his aides [Tommy Mills].” Interestingly, Sam was aware of the separate “Harper” fragment found 11/23/63,156 as was fellow agent Clint Hill.15

9 minutes ago, Joseph McBride said:

It did seem irregular, but Moyers was a key

advance man for Kennedy's Texas trip, and

LBJ was his boss. Moyers also helped

publicize the motorcade route. The Secret Service and the

politicians often get into turf battles, even though

the Secret Service is supposed to have the last

word on security matters. It's odd that Moyers

has never written the autobiography that would

have been expected from him, but he has too many

controversial actions to hide.

I do agree and believe in his role in publicizing the route.

NOT Betty Forsling Harris [1988 video]*;

NOT Forrest Sorrels (as claimed by Jim Lehrer) [2013 video]**;

NOT JFK [famous mythology]. It was Sam Kinney's sole decision, as he was adamant to me on 3 occasions [audio excerpt included + A COUP IN CAMELOT excerpt] and to the Today show 11/22/93***.

Also included are all the films and photos depicting the bubble top being used in good weather motorcades- approximately one third of all of JFK’s motorcades.

* Despite Bill Moyers HSCA testimony, Kinney disputed his claim of responsibility. I always found that bizarre because Moyers had no authority to do so. This would be tantamount to a Kamala Harris aide telling a Joe Biden Secret Service agent to do something...not going to happen.

**Kinney disputed this, as well. As a local DALLAS agent, Sorrels did not have the authority that the White House Detail agents had.

***Kinney is also pictured putting the top ON the limo at Parkland after the assassination.

1 hour ago, Joseph McBride said:

Bill Moyers testified to the HSCA that he gave the

order to remove the bubbletop from the limousine

before the motorcade began at Love Field.

Kinney disputed that. I always found that bizarre because Moyers had no authority to do so. This would be tantamount to a Kamala Harris aide telling a Joe Biden Secret Service agent to do something...not going to happen.

6 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Vince, is Oliver Stone even aware of this Elmer Todd initials rebut? Did DiEugenio tell him or anyone?

Good point. I do not know.

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Is THE piece of JFK's skull Kinney says he had on the flight back to DC the same one that Constable Seymore Weitzman said was found in the street behind and to the left of the JFK limo head shot spot location near the curb near the grass standing eye witness Charles Brehm who also claimed he saw the skull piece?

Hi, Joe! No--totally different. Sam said "mine was a big piece."

THE REAL DEATH OF A SECRET SERVICE AGENT THE MONTH BEFORE DALLAS 10/14/63 remastered with some sound

I uploaded this very important and provocative video months ago and a lot of people wished it had some sound, so I have remastered/slightly expanded it to include some intermittent sound clips (including from one of my presentations).

One of three lengthy interviews I did with the follow-up car driver on 11/22/63 (and countless other trips) 1994. Sam confirms that he was solely responsible for the bubble top's removal on 11/22/63; the right rear of JFK's head was gone AND he had the skull piece while on the C-130 transport plane; his windshield was splattered with blood; he believes in conspiracy; no missed shots- all 3 shots made their mark; JFK did NOT order the agents off his limo; confirms that Emory Roberts did indeed order the other agents not to move during the assassination (yet gives it a "benign" spin); etc. 

3 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

The reasoning given for why Kinney moved ce399 from the limo to the stretcher makes no sense to me. He took ce399 out of the limo because "He wanted to get the car cleaned up"? The limo had JFK's brains all over the back seat, how does removing a bullet help clean it up at all? It is completely nonsensical.
   "He didn't want the president to be remembered like that". Like what? finding the bullet on the stretcher as opposed to the limo somehow preserves what JFK was "remembered" as?
 This story defies logic. I know people can act strange in such circumstances but even that explanation falls way short. imo.

I tend to agree. It is hard to dismiss Loucks "revelations" as a whole, but, at the same time, I am skeptical, especially based on my own interviews with Kinney (2 in all) which pre-date the release of the 1978 HSCA interview with Kinney in 1996 by the ARRB, Kinney's death in 1997 and Loucks revelations in 2013.

In other words, neither was a deal breaker; just an "aw shucks." In the big picture, no big deal (although I am SURE some lone-nutters will disagree).

Stone even admitted on the audio commentary and (I think) the annotated screenplay for JFK that the 3 tramps...well...turned out to just be 3 tramps and were identified. Like the Lovelady/man in the doorway Altgens photo issue, some researchers (still?) refused to acknowledge the error, but it is what it is.

Likewise, I feel the "ET"/Elmer Todd initial issue regarding CE399 is of the same caliber (no pun intended)- it doesn't put a dent (no pun intended) in the 2 or 4 hour documentaries as a whole; just something to duly note (borrowing a phrase from Humes) as an error. Like the 3 tramps issue, the "ET" issue WAS alive and well right before release of the Stone productions. It was just that new information came to light.

There are still many issues regarding the SBT: chain of possession, condition, trajectory, disbelief of many (including Clint Hill, Paul Landis, the Connallys, Dr. Robert Shaw, etc.) and so forth. In addition, there are many who feel that OF COURSE CE399 would match up to Oswald's rifle---like the rifle itself, the whole goal was to frame Oswald, so it had to match. For one, I subscribe to the Barry Ernest/Flip de Mey school of thought- Oswald's alleged rifle was involved but OSWALD did not fire it, as he was not on the 6th floor at the time. He was in the building, but on a lower floor. I believe he had to have been involved in some capacity, but as a lone wolf shooter acting totally on his own with no conspiracy, I do not believe this [although I once thought that, while there were undoubtably multiple conspiracies to kill Kennedy, Oswald beat them to the punch. This was circa several months in 2007 when I was briefly swayed by the other Vince not named Palamara, DiMaio, Drain, or Salandria: ole Bugliosi. I added that so DVP doesn't reply "oh, Vince, I remember when you" etc.] But I digress.

Also- Dr. Guinn's NAA has been totally debunked as junk science, so much so that even the FBI has dismissed it of any value. There was a time when THIS was always used by lone-nutters (Paul Hoch and Ken Rahn especially) as "proof" of Oswald's guilt. So much for that...and the debunking of Guinn's NAA is of far greater consequence than a set of initials will ever be.

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

I've listened to this audio several times in the few years since you first posted it VP.

It leaves you pondering many questions.

Did this neighbor feel that Kinney was inferring a belief that LBJ was in some way involved with the JFK killing when Kinney told him to look at who had the most to gain by it ?

The neighbor doesn't quite commit to Kinney saying this with conviction.

Did the neighbor actually state that Kinney found the magic bullet while cleaning the limo and planted it on a stretcher in Parkland?

All kinds of questions pop into mind here.

At what point in time did Kinney actually plant the bullet on the stretcher?

How could that relatively undamaged bullet have found it's way into the limo in that condition?

What purpose motivated Kinney to plant the bullet on the stretcher?

 

I am on the fence about this whole thing. On the one hand, Kinney (in conversations I had between 1992-1994) told me he believed there was a conspiracy, that all three shots made their mark with no missed shot, and that he had THE piece of the back of JFK's head when he was on the C-130 transport plane with the limousines heading back to D.C., all of which is corroborated with his 1978 HSCA interview released in 1996 via the ARRB. Kinney never espoused some of these other things Loucks is alleging to either myself or to the HSCA (and he passed away in 1997). So, we have Loucks word for all of this, while my interviews were recorded (one of the main ones is online [audio] on my you Tube channel), while the HSCA transcript is public domain.

Loucks is like that Parkland nurse who came forward in 2013 for the 50th anniversary: came and went.

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Thanks, Vince. And I see you've just added some "What's My Line?" clips to your own YouTube channel. Nice. WML is a favorite of mine.

If you're interested, I've got a "Kennedy-Related" WML page on my site:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/02/whats-my-line-kennedy-related-episodes.html

Awesome! Thanks, Dave!!

On 6/29/2022 at 4:10 PM, David Von Pein said:

FYI ---

On the morning of June 28, 2022, I sent the following request to the Education Forum administrators via e-mail. The following day at 3:00 PM EDT (today, June 29th), I received a reply saying that I would be allowed to re-join the EF forum. For that, I am very grateful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome back, Dave! Now don't be mean LOL; be nice. You definitely have a good side to you. You have an impressive archive of materials.

18 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Vince: be careful what you use about Garrison on Youtube. John Barbour throws a sh*t fit if you use any of his stuff.

He got my original Youtube channel cancelled because I posted some of his Garrison video.

And the thing is if he had contacted me first, I would have removed it. Ask Mark Oakes. I had a video of his on that channel and he asked me to remove it and I did with an apology.

Instead of doing that, Barbour went to Youtube and had the channel cancelled.

That channel had over 200 videos and I put a lot of work into it.

Just some friendly advice: be careful not to use any of his stuff.

Well, no worries-David Von Pein has the identical video on HIS channel and this NBC video has 0.0 to do with him, so he has zero claim on it, so it is all good.

6 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Thanks for the complete show, Vince.  A hatchet job worthy of Lizzie Borden.

Well said!

23 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Vince, are earlier versions of this document available without the scrawl?

No. It appears Blaine had a copy of this relatively mundane document and added that scrawl much later on in an attempt to make it appear "contemporary." He also forgot to mention it in either his book or documentary-oops.

2 hours ago, Stu Wexler said:

Now that is clear that ET is also in the John Hunt photos, I believe it is imperative that we get both Gary Murr and David Mantik to offer their thoughts on the matter. When did Mantik, for instance, do his analysis? Gary M did his before John Hunt had those pictures taken.

It is still the case that an HSCA workup on all the ballistics materials showed no markings for ET. I will go back to them and double check one more time when I can. Again, they were not specifically looking for initials. But they noted the initials on each fragment/round as well as discolorations, etc. I think it may behoove us to see if any of said analysts are still alive and willing to comment.

I am not anti Steve Roe on this. I think he did a service by finding the initials. Earlier in the year Greg D also thought he saw Todd's initials and I think he would confirm that all I did was to encourage him to dig deeper.  He came back and, to his credit, said they were not there. Here I do see them both on Roe's and Hunt's photos. 

I hope we get some follow up. And ofcourse it does not mean CE399 caused all the non-fatal wound damage to JFK and JBC. I still put that at a very low probability.

And finally I want to say that any insinuation that John Hunt deliberately hid something is absurd. He was a friend and someone of the highest integrity. His contributions to JFK and RFK research are immense. Indeed, his work on the diminished velocity theory of the SBT is as devastating as anything on the subject.

Stu

Outstanding as usual, Stu! 

2 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Good points. The "ET" initials also remind me of the 6.5 mm metal fragment not seen on the night of the autopsy, yet it magically appears later on via x-rays. To my eyes, the "ET" looks haphazard, as if someone hastily added it. It would be very easy to do, one would think; just a matter of seconds. Yes, I am saying there is the possibility that this was added later but BEFORE Hunt's low-resolution photos AND before Roe's better-resolution photos.

All that said, there is also the possibility they WERE there all along (although it seems very had to believe everyone missed it). 

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF LATER-DAY FORGERY OVER AN OSTENSIBLY "CONTEMPORANEOUS" ITEM:

[Gerald Blaine came out with his book The Kennedy Detail in an attempt to refute my work which demonstrates that JFK never ordered the agents off his car and other related matters. I spoke to and corresponded with Blaine several years before his book came out, there are obvious references to myself in his book, his attorney sent me a threatening letter before publication, both Blaine & Clint Hill spoke at length about me---twice---on C-SPAN, and a whole lot more. This is just to preface the following--Blaine felt the need to plant this in the Archives shortly before MY book (which he was much aware of) was due to come out...but he makes a fatal error]

Gerald Blaine’s handwritten notes on a November 1963 schedule [with underlines and bold by myself, as well as bracketed commentary]:

“Frank Yeager and myself have the advance in Tampa, Fla. Everything goes well and I feel real good. Never a thought of the tragedy that is due to occur on the 22nd. Kennedy makes the first of fateful steps that seem to lead toward the tragedy. He states that he wants no agents riding on the rear of his car as we did in Europe. If one was there the assassination might not have occurred. An agent’s life is a frustrating one. You can set all of the security in the world, but its only as good as the President lets it be. The day will come when the only way the public will be able to see the president is by television. The country seems to be loaded with eccentrics and potentials.”

“I don’t think I have ever been filled so low emotionally by anything like the president’s assassination. There wasn’t a thing anyone could have done to stop it and the Secret Service did everything it could do. [what a joke] My shift worked midnight in Ft. Worth on the 22nd. We took them to the airport – They flew to Dallas, went to Austin to sleep for the next nights duty. I had been asleep about ten minutes in the Commodore Perry Hotel. Art Godfrey came in the room and almost broke the door down. ‘The boss was hit in Dallas.’ I was groggy but the sickening truth seemed to sink through and I couldn’t do anything but swing my legs over the bed and when the shock hit me I couldn’t find the strength to stand and I was hit with a sudden wave of chills. Then I tried to fight off the despair and asked Art if he was sure. He said he knew that Kennedy was shot, but didn’t know if it was fatal. We turned on the radio and finally got through on the security phone to hear the horrible truth. We just withdrew in our own thoughts.”

“We flew back in a SAC Bomber, myself, Art Godfrey, Bob Faison, Jerry O’Rourke, Paul Burns and John Bailey (National Democratic Chairman). We arrived back after Kennedy’s body and set up security at the Johnson residence. (What a disgusting settlement – Kennedy replaced by Johnson – like a pro-ball player going from the Yankees to the bottom of the league.)”

“They say that not many single things have an influence on history, but I am sure this one will.”

“Even though we could have done nothing to prevent it, nor was there anything anyone could have done except use a bulletproof automobile, we are all suffering from guilt and failure [why?!?!? I thought there was zero you could have done to prevent it?!?!?!?!] in our one task. The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months was a sad one, but we all came out with a feeling of hope far greater than we had ever had before. We shall all be stronger for the experience in the years to come. President Kennedy left us a little of his courage and we lost not only a fine president but a friend we will never forget and always admire.” 

 

"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
"The ordeal we were to all go through for the next few months..."
OOPS--I thought these notes were supposed to be contemporaneous "proof" of something?! A SOURCE AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES WHO WAS ADAMANT ABOUT NOT BEING QUOTED SAID IT WAS HIS/HER BELIEF THAT THE HANDWRITTEN "SCRAWL" IN "BALL POINT PEN" WAS ADDED YEARS LATER...I say decades (say, around late 2012), but you get the point.

 

But imagine how this could be used by someone: "This is PROOF that JFK did order the agents off his car!!!!!!"

 

 

 

@James DiEugenio see above 

11 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Boy, this is a puzzler, but I have hard time believing the HSCA examined CE 399 and did not find ET's initials, but that the initials were actually there. 

I mean, this is a variation of the joke, "You had one job...."

Would not any reasonable person examine CE 399 under a magnifying glass, and turn it this and that way to the light, etc?

This reminds me of the Dallas Police Department officer who recovered four shells near the Tippit scene and said the shells said "auto" on the bottom. But LHO was shooting "Specials," or so the story goes. 

Meaning that a DPD officer, investigating the murder of fellow officer (the most serious crime to any PD) could not get right was was printed on the bottom of the shells he held in his hand.

You had one job....

Good points. The "ET" initials also remind me of the 6.5 mm metal fragment not seen on the night of the autopsy, yet it magically appears later on via x-rays. To my eyes, the "ET" looks haphazard, as if someone hastily added it. It would be very easy to do, one would think; just a matter of seconds. Yes, I am saying there is the possibility that this was added later but BEFORE Hunt's low-resolution photos AND before Roe's better-resolution photos.

All that said, there is also the possibility they WERE there all along (although it seems very hard to believe everyone missed it). 

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF LATER-DAY FORGERY OVER AN OSTENSIBLY "CONTEMPORANEOUS" ITEM:

27 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I replied to this on that thread, and will something.

I just got back from Quebec.

There are four major stories in two of the biggest newspapers up there about Oliver's visit.

But remember, Roe says Oliver failed.

Great! Thanks, Jim!

19 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Oh please Pat.

On the biggest case that the Dallas FBI ever worked on, Odum would forget what he did in showing that exhibit to the first two people who saw it?

And Odum said that if had done so he would have certainly recalled it 1.) Because he and Wright were friends, and 2.) He would have made out a 302.

And you are also forgetting the contradictory reports in the FBI record.  Namely the ones that said they could not make a positive identification and the ones saying they could.  Ad those are contemporaneous.

https://history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm

Hi, Jim! I am dying to know what you think of the whole Elmer Todd/ET issue. Parnell thinks it debunks the Stone film and the two & four-hour documentary combined hahaha! In my opinion, it is just an "aww shucks" matter; one peg out of many regarding CE399.

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

My understanding is that the archives photo used by Roe has been available for awhile. When one looks at the location of the ET, moreover, and compares it to earlier archives photos along with the one published by Hunt in 2006, it's clear this ET is not a recent addition. 

So, no, there's nothing suspicious about the discovery of this ET. Nor was there anything suspicious about the discovery of the identities of the tramps. When the Kennedy case attracts attention it leads some people (AKA "researchers") to look a little deeper. And, voila, they find things. 

The assumption that the likes of Weisberg, Lane, Thompson, Lifton, Groden, Mantik, and yes even my friend Hunt, were thoroughly reliable and not prone to error is laughable, IMO. They all made errors. We all make errors. 

And it is only through the acknowledgement of errors that the case can crawl forward...

Thanks, Pat. So, just to be clear- in your opinion, this discovery, while important, neither confirms the chain of custody of CE399 or the validity of the single bullet theory? It just knocks down one peg out of the list, correct?