Antti Hynonen

Bill, You took the words right out of my mouth.

Bill, Here's some history on Barksdale AFB. http://www.barksdale.af.mil/library/factsh...eet.asp?id=4409 From the above: The renowned 2nd Bomb Wing transferred to Barksdale April 1, 1963 , from Hunter Field, Ga. taking over the B-52 and KC-135 mission from the 4238th Strategic Wing. From 1965 and into the 1970s, the 2nd Bomb Wing routinely deployed aircraft and personnel to Southeast Asia for "Arc Light" (B-52) and "Young Tiger" (KC-135) missions in support of the war in Vietnam. ------------- More details can be found from that url. Not much about the early 1960's apart from what I quoted above. ------------- Headquarters Air Force ordered the permanent designation of the group’s history, awards and emblem bestowed on the wing April 1, 1963. On that same date, the wing moved to Barksdale from Hunter and took control of the B-52 and KC-135 aircraft assigned to the 4238th Strategic Wing. In the early 1960s, 8th Air Force received the B-52 Stratofortress, KC–135 tanker, and Atlas and Titan intercontinental ballistic missiles. the above from this url: http://www.militarynewcomers.com/BARKSDALE/index.htm ------------- In brief, it looks like this air force base was preparing for what it would need to do in SE Asia in a year or two.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JAMESaftermath.htm Above a link to a collection of assassination aftermath photos available on the Spartacus site. Many of them show the railroad bridge immediately after (from a few seconds to a few minutes) the presidents motorcade passed the triple underpass. No train in sight IMO. Had there been a long and noisy train with 3 locomotives, it would not doubt have been present on several photos and film of that short point in time. I do believe that it is entirely possible that a train went across the bridge a few minutes prior to the arrival of the motorcade or perhaps even several minutes after the motorcade had passed. I am not sure when Bowers allowed the trains to move again. A locomotive and /or boxcars would probably be some 10-13 feet tall, thus roughly twice the height of a man and therefore clearly visible when on the bridge.

That could be Bill. I don't know if she also claims to have seen Lee at Mancuso's, but at least she has claimed that Lee came into Banister's office and filled out a form and sat down with Guy Banister and a "lengthy conversation took place". See Spartacus link below/A. Summers interview of D. Roberts. Kurtz could well be correct, I have nothing to show that he is wrong. I am just questioning how he was able to recognize Oswald as early as in the summer of 1963. As I said he might not have recognized Lee at that time per se. Rather, that he made the connection later, when in November of 1963 Lee was in the media for alledgedly having shot JFK and Tippit. In either case, I wonder what it was about Lee at Mancuso's that left such an impression on Dr. Kurtz, that he'd remember such an "average Joe" looking character like Lee. Perhaps Dr. Kurtz overheard details of the conversation (Castro - Anti-Castro) and something within that struck him as unusual, enough to remember the coffee shop fellow with Banister. Perhaps the debate occurred first and something about the debate stuck with him, enough for him to recall Lee later by it. Hmmm.... http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrobertsD.htm

I think the photogaphic record (of 11/22/1963 at about 12:30 p.m.) from Dealey Plaza including sections of the train tracks in the vicinity, proves quite clearly that at the time the motorcade was approaching the plaza and at the time the first few cars had passed the triple underpass, no train travelled the tracks in the immediate area of the Plaza. This is further supported by the majority of the eye witness testimony of that day and not least by the testimony of Mr. Bowers, who was in charge of controlling the train access to and from the railway yard in the immediate vicinity of Dealey Plaza. Like Mr. Miller said earlier, Bowers stopped a train prior to it reaching the plaza. The eye witnesses, whose testimonies have been presented in this thread thus far, describing a train passing the triple underpass bridge at the time of the motorcade, were most likely mistaken with regards to the exact timing of the arrival of the train they describe. Snippets of the WC testimony of Lee Bowers Jr. -------------- Mr. BALL - What kind of work were you doing for them? Mr. BOWERS - I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal, operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains. Mr. BALL - Through railroad yards? Mr. BOWERS - Yes. -------------- This is Mr. Bowers describing the events minutes after the motorcade had passed: -------------- Mr. BALL - Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower? Mr. BOWERS - A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up. Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes. Mr. BALL - In this area around your tower? Mr. BOWERS - That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train. Mr. BALL - I believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we? --------------

I am wondering how Dr. Kurtz was able to identify Banister's debate partner and Banister's coffee shop friend as Lee Oswald as early as the summer of 1963? Oswald was pretty much unknown to the public then. Or let me assume that he didn't identify Oswald then but later made the connection, say after 11/22/1963 when Oswald became known to the general public, how could Dr. Kurtz be so certain that this was the same person he saw some 5 months prior, in the company of Guy Banister? Did Lee Oswald leave such a remarkable impression on him, that he would recall this young fellow 5 months later as having been in the presence of Mr. Banister? Did he know that Oswald was pro-Castro, communist etc. when he saw him at the Mancuso coffee shop in the summer of 1963? I'm more comfortable with Dr. Kurtz identifying Guy Banister, since Banister was a longer term resident of New Orleans, and probably frequented the coffee shop regularly.

James, Can't say if "Man photographed in Dealy Plaza" is a lookalike of David Morales in the picture you posted, but "Man photographed in Dealy Plaza" sure resembles the man in the film from the Ambassador hotel. The one thought to be David Morales.

Jim, I'll PM you what I know. I can give you a full translation of the Finnish Wikipedia on Hayhanen, on Ingrians etc.

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/abel/abel.htm The Fed's wrote a nice piece on the entire Hayhanen/Abel episode (link above).

James, You are unbelievable with the photos. Jim, I'll jump in here and give a little more background on what the Finnish Wikipedia had on Häyhänen and Mäki. (The info below is from Wikipedia) Like you said, Mäki was a Finnish-American who (for some reason) moved to the USSR, only to disappear in Stalin's Soviet Union. The Soviets kept Eugen Mäki's Finnish ID card and issued it to Häyhänen at the Soviet occupied -Finnish Porkkala peninsula base in 1949. (Häyhänen was soviet born, but Ingrian = this is a group of peoples with genetic and cultural ties to Finnish people and many of them speak Finnish, although they are Russian/Soviet citizens. Ingrians are chiefly in the current day St. Petersburg area and south of St. Petersburg). During the end of the 1940's and early 1950's Häyhänen's new ID was established and strengthened in Finland by manipulating the Finnish system and using the given ID card. Häyhänen (now Mäki) even married in Finland apparently somewhere in the 1949-1952 period, and appeared to live a normal life here as a re-setlled Finnish American. In 1951 using Mäki's (Finnish -American) ID he went to the US Embassy in Helsinki and obtained a US passport. In 1952 he moved to the US and worked as a KGB spy with Rudolf Abel. According to the Finnish Wikipedia, Häyhänen was not suspected of spying for the USSR while in Finland, or at least there was no official evidence of such. Apparently Häyhänen's main goal while in Finland those years (1949-1952) was to obtain a new identity enabling his move to the USA. Further it states that in 1957 Häyhänen (Mäki) defected to the USA and gave information which led to the arrest and conviction of KGB colonel Rudolf Abel. Rudolf Abel was exchanged for Gary Powers in 1962.

Well, I'd not be ok with referring to someone as a donkey. For instance if you were to call me a donkey, or if you were to say that I was acting like one, I'd feel offended.

Bill, Ultimately the mods have to decide what is appropriate and what is not. This is not an easy job. I think use of the above word in any sense to refer to a fellow member is inappropriate. I also want to say that moderation is not about controlling the use of a word or the publishing of a single word, it is about controlling how one refers to others and what one might consider an insult. Even if you feel that the person you are referring to is dead wrong or simply "doesn't have a clue" there are far better and far more tactful ways of saying this than using words such as the above. I fully understand that debate can be hot at times, but that is when we need to cool down enough to not hurt anyones feelings. Antti

To all members: As of late there have been several cases where members have resorted to name calling, excessive sarcasm and patronizing of other members etc. As a result 3 members have now been placed on "permanent moderation". A fellow moderator and I both posted warnings on the thread in question and cautioned posters to adhere to the Forum rules. Unfortunately this did not happen. I am urging all of you to debate in a civilized manner, take the warnings seriously. We all want this to be a fun place where we can share information and knowledge via civilized debate. As a reminder, here are the Forum rules on behavior: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2243 Forum policy against cursing: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;hl=Swearing I do not wish to start a discussion on this issue, just for everyone involved to carefully consider what they post. Thank you.

Now that other moderation controls are in place I have re-opened this thread. I hope that all posters of this thread (and others) remember the Forum rules and: 1) treat other members with respect 2) discuss relevant issues related to the topic 3) do not resort to name calling If this is not possible, further administrative measures will be enforced.

Kathy, thanks for posting this. Interesting issue. here's the correct url for the recordings: http://www.jfk-online.com/jfkaudio.html

John Simkin Posted Yesterday, 03:56 PM QUOTE(Gil Jesus @ Jul 14 2007, 05:50 PM) Bethesda corpsman Dennis David describes the head wounds to JFK that he saw in videos taken by William Bruce Pitzer as an entry wound in the front and an exit wound in the rear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F9LTOhTU84 video just uploaded, please give about 15mins from the time of this post for the video to process. Thank you for that. I have added it to his web page. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdavidD.htm I am in contact with Dennis David. Does anyone have any questions for him? http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7471 Sure, I e-mailed with him, I believe back in 2005, he kindly answered my questions (many of these were the same questions as have been presented on the Dennis David thread here) but said he was busy taking care of his ill wife and had to take a break from JFK researchstuff. I also posted a question for him in August 2006 on the thread you posted a link to, but as of date he has not yet replied.

Due to the large number of complaints that I have received regarding this thread and due to the behavior of the main poster's of this thread I have decided to lock this thread. I have e-mailed John Simkin regarding this issue yesterday but have not received a reply. I am assuming he is busy with other matters. I am further asking my fellow administrators not to unlock this thread until John Simkin or Andy Walker will consider the re-opening of this thread and the placing of members in violation of Forum rules under permanent moderation. This feature requires administrator priviledges and to my knowledge this can not be done by a moderator. Sincerely, Antti Hynonen

Quite so James. I think the 3 cops interviewed here are some of the honest cops with nothing to hide in this case. I believe what Jim Leavelle recalls is seeing Ruby at the time he pulled the trigger, nevertheless too late to do much about it. Leavelle further recalls trying to pull Oswald by his belt to help get Oswald out of Ruby's way, but not having enough leverage to do so properly in that split second incident. I am bothered by the silence of other police officers who may in fact have had something to hide, including Buddy Walthers, Will Fritz, and Sheriff Decker. If they had nothing to do with concealing evidence and/or undermining the investigation, I'm sure they at least knew who was demanding a Lone Nut investigation from the get go.

I'd like to remind the active poster's of this thread that insults and smart remarks do very little in terms of advancing research and cooperation. Ms. Beckett explained to you what the PM function does and how it works normally. Those of you experiencing trouble with this function may want to ensure that the system you are using is functioning properly. From what I understand, the PM functions normally with most members computers. Some things are better said in PM's than on the open Forum. I will be monitoring this thread closely for the next couple of days to make sure posts are appropriate.

Hi John D. and John G. I'm back on-line, and unfortunately I don't know of a German officer whose plane went down near lake Inari during WW2. I can ask a friend who may be more knowledgeable in this area. Antti

To all posters of this thread. I have received 2 moderation reports concerning this thread. I honestly hope I won't receive any more. Members who result in insulting others, cursing or otherwise repeatedly fail to follow Forum rules will be placed on "permanent moderation". This means their posts will be revised by administrators and or moderators before they will be posted (if at all). The following step will be even more severe. I suggest a rapid change in the tone of posts and language that has been used here. Respect each other and address each other in an appropriate way. Thank you. Antti Hynonen Moderator JFK Forum

Yes, thank you John.I listened to it last night. A very informative and good interview. One piece of information that stuck with me is Bobby Kennedy's last words, "Jack! Jack!"... As I recall Tony Soprano had JFK's skipper's hat on his boat. So long.... Bada Bing!

Francesca, Thank you for posting this. The document is in fact several pages long. Most interesting is the fact that these two "refugees" from Cuba, just happened to stay in the same hotel (Klaus Kurki) as Lee Oswald did some 3 years prior. Gee, the CIA must have had a good deal with that hotel!

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingin_nuo...estivaalit_1962 The above for those who read Finnish . According to the Wikipedia article above, the USA and UK initiated a simultaneous "counter-festival" with more western and non-communist views. It was for this purpose that the CIA and US goverment would pay for and send some participants. It seems like such festivals were of a great concern to the west at the time. The DRE is mentioned as a participant organization in the counter festival. FWIW

James, Not that I'd personally know any details about these festivals (nor the 1962 festival itself, a bit before my time), but at any, rate I came across an interesting article on the net, which claims the CIA funded the participation of some Americans for such trips. http://www.cia-on-campus.org/surveil/steinem.html Perhaps this helps explain how Koch and Beloya were able to finance their little excursion.