Joe Bauer

You seldom hear public hearing witnesses openly express as much fear of their husband as Wilma Tice did in her WC testimony. Yes, sad.

Just read Wilma Tice's Warren Commission testimony. Dynamite! Too long to copy and paste here. But anyone interested in this topic should read it. She was absolutely traumatized regards her abusive husband's intimidating treatment of her.

Ruby probably didn't try to make any phone calls while he was at Parkland hospital the afternoon of 11,22,1963. Every available phone that members of the public would be allowed to use there were tied up the entire time. Ruby's answers to Gerald Ford and others regards him being at Parkland while Seth Kantor was there seemed scattered, even non-sensical. And purposely diverting to ridiculous other points. My sisters thought I was there...??? I feel that the WC knew that if they took Seth Kantor's Ruby sighting at Parkland testimony over Ruby's, this could have been a HUGE problem in many ways. The Kantor claim would have placed Ruby where he said he wasn't and at a time and place that would have opened up dangerously suspicious questions in that regards. Taking Kantor's testimony over Ruby could have even placed Ruby in the vicinity of the "Magic Bullet" found on an ER area hallway stretcher.

Pretty straight forward summation of Marina's feelings about Ruth Paine. Same regards Lee. They appreciated what Ruth Paine had done and was doing for them. Yet they did not personally like her. Marina, like any young mother in dire financial straights had to try to show as good of an appreciation side to her benefactor as she could. Yet, if her and Lee could have had some big boost in income they would have moved out and away from RP in a minute imo.

If Castro did JFK and our entire government knew this truth... Does anyone really believe the only retaliation we would have initiated against him would be an economic blockade? Which is what we did before the JFKA and for decades after. I could imagine our JCS discussing what to do to the bearded one after concluding he just took out our president. Ah, well, just keep doing to him and his regime what we've been doing. Making sure life in Cuba for it's citizens is materially bleak.

The damage to the windshield upper frame is so light it could go unnoticed...??? Hog wash! Look at that ball peen hammer blow hole with 3 inches of raised and twisted metal just above it. You can't miss it! A reasonable person would expect a thorough examination of the limo by many looking for physical evidence in the assassination investigation. The limo is a huge and hugely important piece of evidence. That bullet shape and width hole should have grabbed the attention of examiners straight away. Wow, Sam...will ya look at that indentation? I would have asked to see "the crank" device that was reportedly blamed for the indentation. I would want to see it's shape, size and where it was located when the limo top was being placed back on.

Yes, laughable. An auto body garage damages the premier presidential limo that noticeably and doesn't mention it or offer to repair it? Years before 11,22,1963? And all the care takers, movers and drivers of it between the proposed garage damage time frame and 11,22,1963 never notice it and/or considered it worthy of mention and repair? Pamela, you are our forum's most respected research authority on the presidential limo. Do you have any doubts regards the indentation damage being created before 11,22,1963?

If there was a conspiracy involved with the JFK and Oswald killings, one must consider this ominously fantastic reality. That those involved in the conspiracy were so powerful, they have successfully kept this truth from being exposed...for 6 decades! Despite tens of thousands of researchers spending millions of hours trying to find and expose the guilty parties for all this time. Has certain parts of our government been capable of keeping a secret of this magnitude from being revealed for that long? Are they truly that powerful and capable? We couldn't keep the A-bomb technical information secret very long at all. We couldn't keep our CIA/Mafia connection history secret more than a few years. Longer term, our "Operation Paper Clip" and MK Ultra secrets were eventually finally exposed. However, there is one secret our government "has" been able to keep hidden, and for longer than the JFKA one, and that is the UFO one. So, in at least one area, yes, certain parts of our government have been able to keep at least one important secret hidden that long. The JFKA one? Based on the longer term UFO secret being successfully kept all this time, it's "possible" the JFKA one could be also, imo anyways. Whenever I rewatch the Walter Cronkite interview of LBJ back in 1969. where LBJ himself posits that "I don't think anyone can be absolutely sure" that others may have been involved with Oswald, I concluded there were. This amazing "Oswald acting alone" doubt proposition statement coming "straight from the horse's mouth" as they say.

In 1978 the HSCA filed it's final conclusion report which stated a probable conspiracy regarding the JFKA. Social media postings throughout the years and up to now more and more color that finding with this dismissive caveat. That the Dallas Police motorcycle recording device evidence the HSCA mostly based their conspiarcy conclusion on has been proven to be invalid. Along with mentioning how much the HSCA praised the work of the Warren Commission over-all. The HSCA conspiracy finding has been successfully debunked according to our pseudo-official published, promoted and accepted accounts.

Various thoughts: Someone would have talked by now. E. Howard Hunt DID TALK! He laid out the details of his covert team's involvement in what he called "the Big Event" in an end-of-life confessional to his son St. John Hunt ... on tape! He included a diagram of who he felt were the top political movers behind the plan. Lyndon Johnson, Cord Meyer and explained their motives. The main stream media completely ignored the story except for some random back page initial reporting of it and with no follow up investigations at all. If E.H.H.'s JFKA revelation story was true ( and could be proven ) it could have very well shaken our nation's MIC/MSM government power framework and our entire society to their core. Our citizenry would have been first numb with disbelief and then furious and demanding a complete overhaul with many criminal indictments of major characters with the most serious punishments. We as a nation would have been on unprecedented shaky unstable ground for years. Such an event would have made Watergate seem like small town scandal. Hunt and his "Big Event" JFKA confessional was immediately ignored and completely dismissed by the MSM with a smorgasbord of self-interest reasons. He made up the fantastic tale at the urging and coaching of his son St. John Hunt for the purpose of providing St. John with a can't miss book deal to give him some financial security that E. Howard never did. St. John's first attempts at profiting off his father's story through a possible movie deal involving Kevin Costner fell through. E. Howard had some personal animosity toward LBJ and Meyer and made up their villainous roles to get back at them. E. Howard Hunt was literally out of his gourd at the time he made the confessional. Curious though was Castro child bearing mistress and double agent Marita Lorenz backing up several key points of E. Howard Hunt's tale with her own of a covert team ( like Hunt described ) driving with safe house stops across the South en route to Dallas with guns. Led by Frank Sturgis whom Hunt knew well. Lorenz claimed she left the group voluntarily before their final destination arrival. She claimed years later that Sturgis threatened her life if she went public with her story. Sturgis himself ( via an interview by the intrepid Capone Vaults reporting Geraldo Rivera ) claimed some involvement in the JFK affair or at least knowledge of it before and after. The indentation in the upper windshield frame of JFK's limo: My logical guess is that the framework of the roof assembly that mechanically joined up to and into the windshield assembly did not have a ball peen hammer shaped protrusion that would have made that pronounced indentation into solid steel like the one we see. And slightly off by inches from a centered location in the upper frame? It's clearly obvious that the two open rectangular slot type openings in the frame on each side were receptacle points for any interlocking assembly joining them together. I've studied the Indention story in it's historical context ( mostly discovered and presented by our own esteemed forum JFK limo researcher Pamela Brown ) and my conclusion is that the indentation was not present before the limo's arrival and use in Dallas on 11,22,1963. That finger deep, bullet shape, twisted metal hole is incredibly obvious imo. If I was tasked with the physical care and maintenance of our main presidential limo to make sure it was a showcase of highest cosmetic appearance to the public when it was in use...I would have noticed that big, twisted ugly hole in a minute. Heck, I would have noticed an ugly ball peen hammer pounded looking hole like that in a minute in my first junker Mercury Comet car I ever owned.

Looks like using the word "Killing" in any book title is an absolute "killer" money making shtick. Bill O'Reilly has made 24 million dollars off all his "Killing" title books. One would assume O'Reilly will eventually put out a new book titled - "Killing It" ... "How I Made A Fortune Using The Word Killing In My Book Titles."

Bugliosi was weird. A nervously fast talking little guy. Almost manic. He would have made a good Barney Fife type character in film and TV. I started to read his anchor weight JFKA book "Reclaiming History" but my arms couldn't hold it up and I also lost interest after his non-stop, never ending and almost obsessive derogatory references ( dozens ) toward conspiracy view holders as loons, kooks, crazies, losers, weak minded fools and on and on... just way too personally attacking. I realized his book was more a hyped up gas lighting effort than a seriously balanced evidence one and that it was intended to be so to sell copies. And so much of the book was simply hundreds of pages of already recorded documentation minutiae that he probably had aides find and use as filler. A 30 pound sleeping pill. His titanic weight tome did however, provide months of torn out pages kindling fire starter material. It's advertising should have promoted it's dual function use as such imo. Yet, Bugliosi was also weirdly contradictive. He makes fun of JFKA conspiracy believers, but also tears apart our Supreme Court in their nullifying the Florida Supreme Court decision to keep counting their state's 2,000 presidential election votes when Gore was gaining to within just a few hundreds votes, with the pattern showing he would have defeated Bush if the count was kept going just one more day. Bugliosi also writes he believed RFK's murder was a conspiracy. What to make of this guy? Maybe he just put out contrarily controversial view points in his books to sell more of them?

Upon reflective contemplation inspired by many of the thoughtful response postings to my original post thread I now realize it's title and the question it proposes are not intellectually framed to a degree of logical debate. I've thought about changing it or even deleting it. I do however, feel that the JFKA research community is at a changing dynamic point of mission agenda at this 60 year mark of it's birth.

If Jack Ruby was psychologically influenced by some MK Ultra type programming, what was the timing of this? Before he shot Oswald? After? Just started watching the video. My question was answered there. It was after.

Question: How loud would the shots from Hickey's auto-burst gun have been? Seriously, even if no one on the street heard these shots, wouldn't Hickey's car-mates have heard them including his boss in the front seat? I would imagine such guns rapid fire bursts are not anywhere as loud as typical single shot bolt action rifles. But they are not silenced either. And is there absolutely no noticeable gun fire smoke smell from such a gun? If Hickey's automatic gun accidentally went off with several rapid fire shots while it was facing in the direction of JFK's limo, what are the odds that just one of those hit JFK in the head, and no other shots hit the limo except in the way you described? If one of those gun burst bullets hit the windshield from just 20 feet away, I would imagine it would have created much more pronounced damage to it than photos show. Also, you would imagine perhaps one of those unintentional and uncontrolled aim bursts hitting the back of the limo. No bullet holes there correct? I could see a massive cover-up taking place "if" the Hickey shooting scenario you describe were true. And as remarkable as it would be, I could see every SS man that may have known the truth of the Hickey shooting taking that truth to their grave. Wonder what our resident SS expert Vince Palamara has to say about a possible Hickey shooting of JFK.

The forum will survive Trump. In fact, it will flourish once he fades from the everyday news scene. And like the rest of society, we will all be less divided. Less angry at each other. I really believe this. No one can gaslight an entire nation like you know who.

Well, if the mods move it, I won't argue. I did say I posted it because of this fellow's JFKA comments. That made it a valid JFKA thread imo.

I haven't heard of this guy "Pete Santilli" but it appears he has a national radio audience? Can't figure his JFKA reference in his Trump criminal charge warning of violence and calling for executions of Obama, Holder and Rice. I wouldn't have posted this except for his direct reference to the JFKA. I didn't do so for any current political discussion reasons. In a video clip obtained by Right Wing Watch, Santilli pleaded with members of the military to take action. "Get the military, whatever few are left that are gonna side with the people," he said. "That you military personnel and you people with guns and badges and law enforcement will succumb to the will of the people." "And ultimately, we demand, we absolutely demand that the criminals, the criminals in this country, if you want them held accountable, the criminals are Barack Obama, Eric Holder, Susan Rice," he continued, "this entire criminal cabal that came about as a result of the murder of John F. Kennedy, the people that perpetrated the murder of John F. Kennedy, rise up to that. "Military, join us and put all of them up against a concrete wall... and do what we must do to save not just our country, the entire world," he implored.

Wouldn't that be refreshingly inspiring?

My original thread post title could have been better thought out I admit. Reading the response postings has made me aware of the obvious; that a more succinct subject question should be something much more openly minded, nuanced and interpretive than a too narrow and restrictive "failure versus win" one. You can't frame 60 years of the most monumentally unprecedented civilian truth seeking investigative effort contribution in American history so simply. All brought about imo, by the outrageous failure of our government and it's compliant national MS media to provide our citizenry with anything close to logical truths that adequately addressed the ridiculously improbable and suspicious circumstances of the JFK and LHO murders. That effort alone is clearly a victory of average citizen moral will and courage in standing up to the greatest ( Eisenhower MIC warning ) powers to be government we have had since that time. We may not have had one person charged and convicted for the JFKA ( except for suspect LHO who was killed before he could go to trial ) and not one person similarly charged with aiding Jack Ruby in his killing of Oswald. That is a depressing and frustrating reality, especially after 6 decades of monumental effort on the part of tens of thousands of courageous citizens to find and reveal the true responsible parties. Yet, on the other hand, our official government investigation finding of two nuts who simply just got lucky as the only responsible parties to these world changing crimes has been soundly rejected by the majority of Americans for 60 years now ... 60 years! That fact, the rejection of American governmental trust, respect and credibility among the majority of our society is also a historical reality. The Warren Commission final report hugely failed in that context. So, who failed? Who lost? Obviously, that question cannot be easily answered ( or answered at all ) in that context. I do think however, that at this long period point of 60 years, it is time to give the JFKA research effort a reflective reality contemplation reboot. Thanks to all responders. Lots of interesting sharing of views. I

Yes SA. Several of our response posters have enlightened us to the incredible effort so many independent researchers have gifted us in taking on the truth seeking job our MSM purposely neglected to do regards the JFKA. A brave and even heroic effort actually. A tribute to American courage in seeking the truth when they feel they have been lied to. I might even edit my original thread post to include this inspiring reflection. I

Millions of Americans felt exactly as you did Pamela after watching that scene happen right in front of their eyes. We all felt that Oswald had been silenced.

So well articulated Paul. We need to come to terms with the JFKA and our contemplation/understanding of it's direction, impact and place in our minds 60 long years after it's occurrence in new ways now imo. As you state, part of doing so is acknowledging and facing the huge impact failures of our MSM in responsibly seeking the JFKA truth. As our very own Joseph McBride has been illuminating so well. Looking back upon Eisenhower's famous leaving office Military, Industrial , Corporate unchecked influence and confluence speech, it should have included the extra massive influence entity of our MSM. IMO anyways.

There were also reports of Reagan's secret negotiation team going to the Vatican months before the election. To do what? Make a deal for their help in getting Reagan elected? All I know is that every Catholic family I knew growing up ( hundreds here ) were always, and I mean ALWAYS. the most staunch Democratic party voters in every presidential election until 1980. Especially starting with their first Catholic president JFK. I always figured this was so because the Democratic party platforms were always more Catholic/Christian values poor and working class considering versus the Repubs favoring the wealthiest income groups and agendas. Heck, every Catholic family I grew up around were working class and working class poor. 10 to 12 kids. Tough to keep up with all those kids needs. But something illogically weird happened in the 1980 presidential election. Every one of those Catholic families just instantly changed their tune regards their decades long Democratic party voting loyalty! I was the type to engage others in political discussion. I came right out and asked many of my Catholic friends why they were doing so. I was hearing them promote the extreme right, rich man favoring Republican party and their poster boy Ronnie Reagan! And acting as if the Democrats were all of a sudden these anti-Christian boogie man agents of the devil! What was going on here? I reminded my new right-wing repub promoting friends of how the Democratic party had always championed the Christian values edicts of their church in caring about the poor, the down trodden, and especially the working class and the labor unions that finally lifted them up to realize the "American Dream" life with home purchases, higher education and job opportunities for their children etc. I asked them how they could vote for those in our country who wanted to emasculate those labor unions which had benefitted so many Americans like themselves as well as cutting back on other governmental programs that helped the working class and instead promoted what was more benefitting the wealthy class interests? I remember these Catholic persons not really being able to make their argument for their instant abandonment of the working class value party to the rich man's party. Except for one issue...abortion! That was it...one issue! I was told by a few brave Catholic Church goers who risked being called traitors to their church...that the church hierarchy from their father/pastors all the way up to Archbishops and Cardinals ( and even the Pope himself!) were instructing their flocks to abandon their Democratic party loyalties...because the Democrats were not just liberal about abortions...but promoting them! The work of the DEVIL! That was it! To hell with the working class defending Democrats. The Republican party gained millions of Catholic votes that election they had never had before. To this day, I lost so much respect for those Catholics who abandoned their much more Christian values Democratic party loyalty and instead handed our nation over to the anti-working class rich right wing that election, again, just over one manipulated super-hyped up issue. I strongly suspect that Reagan's roving back room deal maker Bill Casey and his team made a deal with the highest rungs of the Catholic Church hierarchy during their Vatican meet up. You tell your Cardinals, Archbishops and church fathers to instruct their flocks to embrace the Republican party in the 1980 election. Work them up with boogie man sermons regards the Democrats being baby killing agents of the devil! And it worked! Catholics across the country voted for the Republicans in unheard of numbers relative to their past presidential election Democratic loyalty voting records. Reagan and his extreme right wing, wealthy class favoring, union busting working class weakening clan got the ultimate power grab prize. And just years later, the Catholic church was revealed to be a massively corrupted institution of child sex abuse ... afflicting millions of children "world wide." A scandal so deeply effecting and disturbing...it has damaged their reputation to the point they have lost membership by the millions and donation funding by the billions! They haven't recovered from that diabolical debacle. To this day disturbing jokes about Catholic priests are common place. So, the Catholics handed their votes to the extreme right wing, rich man's party in 1980 to the detriment of all working and poorer class Americans ( even many of their own! ) all because they were worked up to believe Democrats were the ultimate child hurting anti-Christian heathens. And in the end it was "they themselves" who were exposed for the same sinful act affliction. You would think the world-wide Catholic church child sexual abuse scandal would have humbled them. But I've never heard any Catholic church adherent ever express such a feeling or thought. And here's what is equally crazy imo. Most of those Catholics who abandoned their more Christian principles Democratic party loyalty in 1980? They've continued their Republican party defending and voting for them...until today? And they are "still" using the single issue of abortion as their one and only rational for doing so!

Perhaps it is a victory that the massive work, time and effort of tens of thousands of researchers and seekers of the JFKA truth has kept the majority of Americans from accepting the Warren Commission finding of LHO being the one and only guilty party without help ... for 60 years? That the "losing effort" is as much that of the Warren Commission failing to convince the clear majority of the American public of their LN finding ...even after all that time? 60 years of societal majority felt mistrust of our government is not "a win." So, could this issue also be framed as a no winner, no loser "stalemate?" My original thread point was to bring this dark society wrenching dichotomy into the open for discussion and debate. One positive society benefitting fact throughout these last 60 years regards the massive research truth seeking effort into the JFKA and LHOA is how much it has helped to enlightened us all with revelations about so many other areas of dark power at our highest levels of governing and control...that we might never had been made aware of otherwise. One result of this revelatory knowledge is a good percentage of our society does not just blindly believe and trust everything our power leaders tell us...all the time. That questioning caution of great power is absolutely important in a democracy, especially ours, yes?