Joe Bauer

Thank you K.K. Lane. It is SO OBVIOUS that Kantor was telling the WC the truth about Ruby's presence at Parkland hospital around 1:30 PM the day of 11,22,1963. Kantor's professional and personal credibility was provenly very high and strong. Compared to Jack Ruby's ... stellar. The question is...why? Why would the WC in their final report claim highly credible, respected and experienced and mentally stable journalist Seth Kantor was mistaken ( through some over-worked up mental state? ) about meeting Ruby at Parkland that afternoon...and emotionally and mentally damaged ( and Mafia connected if even occasional - Lewis McWillie ) Jack Ruby wasn't? In my opinion, because Ruby's presence at Parkland would open up enormously suspicious contradictions in Ruby's account of his full actions that afternoon and in the least expose his blatantly ly*** about them.

Thank you Bob Ness. Kantor was stating his meet up with Ruby at Parkland around 1:30 pm on 11,22,1963 in official affidavits starting just 10 days after Ruby shot Oswald. How could the Warren Commission think they could get away with their illogical discrediting attempt of highly respected Scripps Howard journalist Kantor and his Ruby meet up at Parkland statements like they did? There must have been great panic on their part regards Ruby being at Parkland when Kantor stated he ( Ruby) was there. And as far as pictures of Ruby at Parkland...I don't recall hardly any pics of people once they entered the ER area and other parts of the hospital...do you? Don't recall seeing any of Kantor there. I am sure security clamped down extremely hard on any reporters who may have breached the inner corridors and were trying to take pictures.

I strongly recommend reading Seth Kantor's Warren Commission testimony to anyone here who may want to know more about the Parkland hospital meet up of Kantor and Jack Ruby the afternoon of 11,22,1963. Kantor himself was a very interesting person and a respected Scripps/Howard reporter who was "right there on scene" in all the most dramatic and important events of that weekend involving JFK and Jack Ruby. Kantor was in the Dallas presidential motorcade while the assassination of JFK occurred. Kantor was in the DPD room when Dallas D.A. Henry Wade gave his first press conference there. The same room that Jack Ruby was in and where he ( Ruby ) gave an impromptu correction shout-out to Wade. Kantor was in the Dallas Police Department parking garage when Ruby shot Oswald - just feet away! Kantor even interviewed Ruth Paine in her home just 10 days or so after 11,22,1963! Kantor was interviewed by the controversial background FBI agent Vincent Drain whom Kantor personally knew. Kantor was one of the most well versed and well spoken WC testimonial interviewees. His entire testimony was extremely coherent and his manner extremely professional, calm, thorough and respectful to his questioners Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert Jr. In my opinion Kantor's interviewers were trying very hard to find something ( anything ) they could to try to weaken the credibility of Kantor's claim that he ( Kantor ) actually met Jack Ruby at Parkland and engaged him in conversation while JFK was being treated there. Yet, they failed. Kantor even reported his meeting Ruby at Parkland that day in a widely distributed Scripps/Howard news article he wrote just a few days after 11,22,1963. Another fascinating side story Kantor mentioned in his WC testimony was witnessing the later famous national news reporter Ike Pappas witnessing Jack Ruby approach Wade personally ( and whom Ruby engaged in conversation with ) right after Wade's late night news conference and Pappas remarking to Wade how it looked to him (Pappas) that he (Wade) knew Jack Ruby. Kantor's WC questioners seemed fixated on trying to find something to trip up Kantor regards his report of meeting Ruby at Parkland the afternoon of 11,22,1963. An effort which produced not one bit of credibility questioning validity at all. Kantor, like the professional journalist he was, kept thorough notes. Kantor also kept his calm, professional manner cool the entire WC interview time. I sensed both of Kantor's WC questioners were frustrated in their failed effort to find something to shake Kantor's Parkland hospital Jack Ruby meet up account. The Kantor WC testimony account is one of my favorites. The man was "right there" in all the most dramatic Dallas event happenings that entire weekend. And his recounting of them are a fascinating, well spoken read.

You seldom hear public hearing witnesses openly express as much fear of their husband as Wilma Tice did in her WC testimony. Yes, sad.

Just read Wilma Tice's Warren Commission testimony. Dynamite! Too long to copy and paste here. But anyone interested in this topic should read it. She was absolutely traumatized regards her abusive husband's intimidating treatment of her.

Ruby probably didn't try to make any phone calls while he was at Parkland hospital the afternoon of 11,22,1963. Every available phone that members of the public would be allowed to use there were tied up the entire time. Ruby's answers to Gerald Ford and others regards him being at Parkland while Seth Kantor was there seemed scattered, even non-sensical. And purposely diverting to ridiculous other points. My sisters thought I was there...??? I feel that the WC knew that if they took Seth Kantor's Ruby sighting at Parkland testimony over Ruby's, this could have been a HUGE problem in many ways. The Kantor claim would have placed Ruby where he said he wasn't and at a time and place that would have opened up dangerously suspicious questions in that regards. Taking Kantor's testimony over Ruby could have even placed Ruby in the vicinity of the "Magic Bullet" found on an ER area hallway stretcher.

Pretty straight forward summation of Marina's feelings about Ruth Paine. Same regards Lee. They appreciated what Ruth Paine had done and was doing for them. Yet they did not personally like her. Marina, like any young mother in dire financial straights had to try to show as good of an appreciation side to her benefactor as she could. Yet, if her and Lee could have had some big boost in income they would have moved out and away from RP in a minute imo.

If Castro did JFK and our entire government knew this truth... Does anyone really believe the only retaliation we would have initiated against him would be an economic blockade? Which is what we did before the JFKA and for decades after. I could imagine our JCS discussing what to do to the bearded one after concluding he just took out our president. Ah, well, just keep doing to him and his regime what we've been doing. Making sure life in Cuba for it's citizens is materially bleak.

The damage to the windshield upper frame is so light it could go unnoticed...??? Hog wash! Look at that ball peen hammer blow hole with 3 inches of raised and twisted metal just above it. You can't miss it! A reasonable person would expect a thorough examination of the limo by many looking for physical evidence in the assassination investigation. The limo is a huge and hugely important piece of evidence. That bullet shape and width hole should have grabbed the attention of examiners straight away. Wow, Sam...will ya look at that indentation? I would have asked to see "the crank" device that was reportedly blamed for the indentation. I would want to see it's shape, size and where it was located when the limo top was being placed back on.

Yes, laughable. An auto body garage damages the premier presidential limo that noticeably and doesn't mention it or offer to repair it? Years before 11,22,1963? And all the care takers, movers and drivers of it between the proposed garage damage time frame and 11,22,1963 never notice it and/or considered it worthy of mention and repair? Pamela, you are our forum's most respected research authority on the presidential limo. Do you have any doubts regards the indentation damage being created before 11,22,1963?

If there was a conspiracy involved with the JFK and Oswald killings, one must consider this ominously fantastic reality. That those involved in the conspiracy were so powerful, they have successfully kept this truth from being exposed...for 6 decades! Despite tens of thousands of researchers spending millions of hours trying to find and expose the guilty parties for all this time. Has certain parts of our government been capable of keeping a secret of this magnitude from being revealed for that long? Are they truly that powerful and capable? We couldn't keep the A-bomb technical information secret very long at all. We couldn't keep our CIA/Mafia connection history secret more than a few years. Longer term, our "Operation Paper Clip" and MK Ultra secrets were eventually finally exposed. However, there is one secret our government "has" been able to keep hidden, and for longer than the JFKA one, and that is the UFO one. So, in at least one area, yes, certain parts of our government have been able to keep at least one important secret hidden that long. The JFKA one? Based on the longer term UFO secret being successfully kept all this time, it's "possible" the JFKA one could be also, imo anyways. Whenever I rewatch the Walter Cronkite interview of LBJ back in 1969. where LBJ himself posits that "I don't think anyone can be absolutely sure" that others may have been involved with Oswald, I concluded there were. This amazing "Oswald acting alone" doubt proposition statement coming "straight from the horse's mouth" as they say.

In 1978 the HSCA filed it's final conclusion report which stated a probable conspiracy regarding the JFKA. Social media postings throughout the years and up to now more and more color that finding with this dismissive caveat. That the Dallas Police motorcycle recording device evidence the HSCA mostly based their conspiarcy conclusion on has been proven to be invalid. Along with mentioning how much the HSCA praised the work of the Warren Commission over-all. The HSCA conspiracy finding has been successfully debunked according to our pseudo-official published, promoted and accepted accounts.

Various thoughts: Someone would have talked by now. E. Howard Hunt DID TALK! He laid out the details of his covert team's involvement in what he called "the Big Event" in an end-of-life confessional to his son St. John Hunt ... on tape! He included a diagram of who he felt were the top political movers behind the plan. Lyndon Johnson, Cord Meyer and explained their motives. The main stream media completely ignored the story except for some random back page initial reporting of it and with no follow up investigations at all. If E.H.H.'s JFKA revelation story was true ( and could be proven ) it could have very well shaken our nation's MIC/MSM government power framework and our entire society to their core. Our citizenry would have been first numb with disbelief and then furious and demanding a complete overhaul with many criminal indictments of major characters with the most serious punishments. We as a nation would have been on unprecedented shaky unstable ground for years. Such an event would have made Watergate seem like small town scandal. Hunt and his "Big Event" JFKA confessional was immediately ignored and completely dismissed by the MSM with a smorgasbord of self-interest reasons. He made up the fantastic tale at the urging and coaching of his son St. John Hunt for the purpose of providing St. John with a can't miss book deal to give him some financial security that E. Howard never did. St. John's first attempts at profiting off his father's story through a possible movie deal involving Kevin Costner fell through. E. Howard had some personal animosity toward LBJ and Meyer and made up their villainous roles to get back at them. E. Howard Hunt was literally out of his gourd at the time he made the confessional. Curious though was Castro child bearing mistress and double agent Marita Lorenz backing up several key points of E. Howard Hunt's tale with her own of a covert team ( like Hunt described ) driving with safe house stops across the South en route to Dallas with guns. Led by Frank Sturgis whom Hunt knew well. Lorenz claimed she left the group voluntarily before their final destination arrival. She claimed years later that Sturgis threatened her life if she went public with her story. Sturgis himself ( via an interview by the intrepid Capone Vaults reporting Geraldo Rivera ) claimed some involvement in the JFK affair or at least knowledge of it before and after. The indentation in the upper windshield frame of JFK's limo: My logical guess is that the framework of the roof assembly that mechanically joined up to and into the windshield assembly did not have a ball peen hammer shaped protrusion that would have made that pronounced indentation into solid steel like the one we see. And slightly off by inches from a centered location in the upper frame? It's clearly obvious that the two open rectangular slot type openings in the frame on each side were receptacle points for any interlocking assembly joining them together. I've studied the Indention story in it's historical context ( mostly discovered and presented by our own esteemed forum JFK limo researcher Pamela Brown ) and my conclusion is that the indentation was not present before the limo's arrival and use in Dallas on 11,22,1963. That finger deep, bullet shape, twisted metal hole is incredibly obvious imo. If I was tasked with the physical care and maintenance of our main presidential limo to make sure it was a showcase of highest cosmetic appearance to the public when it was in use...I would have noticed that big, twisted ugly hole in a minute. Heck, I would have noticed an ugly ball peen hammer pounded looking hole like that in a minute in my first junker Mercury Comet car I ever owned.

Looks like using the word "Killing" in any book title is an absolute "killer" money making shtick. Bill O'Reilly has made 24 million dollars off all his "Killing" title books. One would assume O'Reilly will eventually put out a new book titled - "Killing It" ... "How I Made A Fortune Using The Word Killing In My Book Titles."

Bugliosi was weird. A nervously fast talking little guy. Almost manic. He would have made a good Barney Fife type character in film and TV. I started to read his anchor weight JFKA book "Reclaiming History" but my arms couldn't hold it up and I also lost interest after his non-stop, never ending and almost obsessive derogatory references ( dozens ) toward conspiracy view holders as loons, kooks, crazies, losers, weak minded fools and on and on... just way too personally attacking. I realized his book was more a hyped up gas lighting effort than a seriously balanced evidence one and that it was intended to be so to sell copies. And so much of the book was simply hundreds of pages of already recorded documentation minutiae that he probably had aides find and use as filler. A 30 pound sleeping pill. His titanic weight tome did however, provide months of torn out pages kindling fire starter material. It's advertising should have promoted it's dual function use as such imo. Yet, Bugliosi was also weirdly contradictive. He makes fun of JFKA conspiracy believers, but also tears apart our Supreme Court in their nullifying the Florida Supreme Court decision to keep counting their state's 2,000 presidential election votes when Gore was gaining to within just a few hundreds votes, with the pattern showing he would have defeated Bush if the count was kept going just one more day. Bugliosi also writes he believed RFK's murder was a conspiracy. What to make of this guy? Maybe he just put out contrarily controversial view points in his books to sell more of them?

Upon reflective contemplation inspired by many of the thoughtful response postings to my original post thread I now realize it's title and the question it proposes are not intellectually framed to a degree of logical debate. I've thought about changing it or even deleting it. I do however, feel that the JFKA research community is at a changing dynamic point of mission agenda at this 60 year mark of it's birth.

If Jack Ruby was psychologically influenced by some MK Ultra type programming, what was the timing of this? Before he shot Oswald? After? Just started watching the video. My question was answered there. It was after.

Question: How loud would the shots from Hickey's auto-burst gun have been? Seriously, even if no one on the street heard these shots, wouldn't Hickey's car-mates have heard them including his boss in the front seat? I would imagine such guns rapid fire bursts are not anywhere as loud as typical single shot bolt action rifles. But they are not silenced either. And is there absolutely no noticeable gun fire smoke smell from such a gun? If Hickey's automatic gun accidentally went off with several rapid fire shots while it was facing in the direction of JFK's limo, what are the odds that just one of those hit JFK in the head, and no other shots hit the limo except in the way you described? If one of those gun burst bullets hit the windshield from just 20 feet away, I would imagine it would have created much more pronounced damage to it than photos show. Also, you would imagine perhaps one of those unintentional and uncontrolled aim bursts hitting the back of the limo. No bullet holes there correct? I could see a massive cover-up taking place "if" the Hickey shooting scenario you describe were true. And as remarkable as it would be, I could see every SS man that may have known the truth of the Hickey shooting taking that truth to their grave. Wonder what our resident SS expert Vince Palamara has to say about a possible Hickey shooting of JFK.

The forum will survive Trump. In fact, it will flourish once he fades from the everyday news scene. And like the rest of society, we will all be less divided. Less angry at each other. I really believe this. No one can gaslight an entire nation like you know who.

Well, if the mods move it, I won't argue. I did say I posted it because of this fellow's JFKA comments. That made it a valid JFKA thread imo.

I haven't heard of this guy "Pete Santilli" but it appears he has a national radio audience? Can't figure his JFKA reference in his Trump criminal charge warning of violence and calling for executions of Obama, Holder and Rice. I wouldn't have posted this except for his direct reference to the JFKA. I didn't do so for any current political discussion reasons. In a video clip obtained by Right Wing Watch, Santilli pleaded with members of the military to take action. "Get the military, whatever few are left that are gonna side with the people," he said. "That you military personnel and you people with guns and badges and law enforcement will succumb to the will of the people." "And ultimately, we demand, we absolutely demand that the criminals, the criminals in this country, if you want them held accountable, the criminals are Barack Obama, Eric Holder, Susan Rice," he continued, "this entire criminal cabal that came about as a result of the murder of John F. Kennedy, the people that perpetrated the murder of John F. Kennedy, rise up to that. "Military, join us and put all of them up against a concrete wall... and do what we must do to save not just our country, the entire world," he implored.

Wouldn't that be refreshingly inspiring?

My original thread post title could have been better thought out I admit. Reading the response postings has made me aware of the obvious; that a more succinct subject question should be something much more openly minded, nuanced and interpretive than a too narrow and restrictive "failure versus win" one. You can't frame 60 years of the most monumentally unprecedented civilian truth seeking investigative effort contribution in American history so simply. All brought about imo, by the outrageous failure of our government and it's compliant national MS media to provide our citizenry with anything close to logical truths that adequately addressed the ridiculously improbable and suspicious circumstances of the JFK and LHO murders. That effort alone is clearly a victory of average citizen moral will and courage in standing up to the greatest ( Eisenhower MIC warning ) powers to be government we have had since that time. We may not have had one person charged and convicted for the JFKA ( except for suspect LHO who was killed before he could go to trial ) and not one person similarly charged with aiding Jack Ruby in his killing of Oswald. That is a depressing and frustrating reality, especially after 6 decades of monumental effort on the part of tens of thousands of courageous citizens to find and reveal the true responsible parties. Yet, on the other hand, our official government investigation finding of two nuts who simply just got lucky as the only responsible parties to these world changing crimes has been soundly rejected by the majority of Americans for 60 years now ... 60 years! That fact, the rejection of American governmental trust, respect and credibility among the majority of our society is also a historical reality. The Warren Commission final report hugely failed in that context. So, who failed? Who lost? Obviously, that question cannot be easily answered ( or answered at all ) in that context. I do think however, that at this long period point of 60 years, it is time to give the JFKA research effort a reflective reality contemplation reboot. Thanks to all responders. Lots of interesting sharing of views. I

Yes SA. Several of our response posters have enlightened us to the incredible effort so many independent researchers have gifted us in taking on the truth seeking job our MSM purposely neglected to do regards the JFKA. A brave and even heroic effort actually. A tribute to American courage in seeking the truth when they feel they have been lied to. I might even edit my original thread post to include this inspiring reflection. I

Millions of Americans felt exactly as you did Pamela after watching that scene happen right in front of their eyes. We all felt that Oswald had been silenced.