John Butler

OBTW, I didn't say that. Mark Tyler did. This crazy editor framed it that way. Various estimates on the Zapruder Gap range from 14.5 seconds to 30 seconds. My own best guess (somewhat primitive) was about 22 seconds. Basing on David Josephs, the time was probably closer to 15 seconds. As Mr. McBride said earlier Zapruder said he did not turn off the camera and filmed the p. limo as it turned onto Elm.

This disregards over a hundred witnesses who heard shooting on Main St., Houston St. and Elm St. Most of the witnesses, close to 90 or more, heard shooting when the p. limo was in the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and in front of the TSBD. Folks may claim that I cherry pick these witnesses. I did with the simple question "where was the p. limo when you heard shots"? He did, but it turned into the Zapruder Gap. They say when a camera like Zapruder starts up the first frame is lighter than other frames. Here is Z 001 and the startup frame Z 133 after the Zapruder Gap. Are the the same? This has been explained by others smarter than me. I like the Z 001 frame. It is a fraud. The Zapruder film has a fraudulent start up and does not get better. Jack White explained this long ago by noting that not a single person can be identified in this area with the people of the same area in Altgens 5. In other words the people in the area in Altgens 5 or the people in Z 001 are a stage prop. The same goes for the Southwest corner of Houston and Elm St. There are differing numbers of people there in Zapruder and the Elsie Dorman film. And, of course Mannikin row is real. IMO, the missing film (and film from earlier shots and films) in the Zapruder Gap was used to provide the scenery inside the p. limo as it traveled down Elm towards the Grassy Knoll. Counting jiggles and head movements simply can't account for what really happened. Head movements or figures turning to look at something in another direction always seemed to be misleading. These were security people monitoring the crowd. So, anything could have caught their attention.

Only in modern times does a fellow like me have the means to see this stuff for what it is. I have a nice computer and good software. There are people who did this with more primitive means and pretty much came to the same conclusion, Jack White for one. In those days not many would not have even thought that such could be fabricated on such a large scale. People still have that problem today. As, example why is it that Zapruder is the only person who can show us what happened to the p. limo from the passenger's side? There were plenty of cameras in Dealey Plaza on East Houston and North Elm, about 14 if I am remembering correctly from a count I made some years back. Where is their film? Turning to another issue of concern: It you look at Willis slide 5 you will see only two men on the steps before the p. limo arrives there in about 3-5 seconds or less. Yep? Three men, maybeso? The third man was obviously quick to get there for Muchmore/Moorman and then quicker to get away from Bell.

PS You can make a fair case that the Moorman Polaroid is from the Muchmore film: If you look closely at the Moorman Polaroid there are traces of Kennedy being shot and the head wound's ejection of material has been mostly erased. We see in the Muchmore film frames this head wound and ejecta are more visible. The head wound plume of material is less than the image shown in Zapruder, but is shown longer in a greater number of frames. The top, left hand Muchmore frame is almost an exact copy of the Moorman Polaroid. There are differences. Mary and Jean are not in the Polaroid. The Babushka women is not in the Polaroid which may indicate that the Polaroid is a cut down version of the Muchmore frame.

Mark, I agree. But, the situation is more complicated. Like just about everything in Dealey Plaza there is a "wait, what's that. That contradicts". Mary Moorman's photo agrees with Muchmore. Some people have suspected they are the same or from the same source. This is a Marie Muchmore frame showing 3 men on the steps. The same as Moorman's 3 men in almost the exact same pose. Is that enough to convince one of 3 men on the steps. Perhaps not. The following raises more questions about Muchmore and Moorman. This is a Bell frame showing only two men on the steps. and they are kind of transparent. This is a Martin frame showing two men sitting. In the Willis slide we see only two men and not 3. In this Towner frame we see two men sitting. Although some 35 or 40 seconds later in the Couch frame there appears to be two men sitting in that area. A mag look at will show more. This is similar to the Martin frame: Zapruder does not show the men on the steps. IMO, It should. Conclusion: None of the pictorial evidence in Dealey Plaza can be trusted. Especially, the Zapruder film which starts out as a fraud in frame 1 and continues with many examples of altered film throughout the movie. Another photographer that can not be trusted is Ike Altgens. Altgens 5, 6, and 7 are frauds. These two along with the Moorman Polaroid tell a story in Dealey Plaza that is totally false. They are the basis of the official story and it is false.

Andrej, I believe there were two Oswalds, Harvey and Lee. I differ from the Harvey and Lee folks on where Lee was in the fall of 1959. I believe he also made the trip to Russia. In in this montage you will see an Oswald that I think is Lee Oswald in the left hand photo. It is my strong belief that Lee Oswald was edited out of the photo record. The use of face masks in photo editing is the simplest and easiest technique. It is Lee Oswald with Harvey's face added. His hair is thicker, somewhat curly, and lighter in color than Harvey's. The photos in this montage are contemporaneous. So, during that period a hair pattern should not change in a one or two year period. Contemporaneous at least to the period 1958-1960. This montage gives one an idea where Frazier saw things: If Frazier was 20 feet from the end of the building he would be able to see some of the parking lot. I haven't studied the Croft photo, but in looks like some editing was done with the vehicles the closest to the TSBD. Frazier said he man he saw talked to him. That indicates he was close. So, in Croft the vehicle he was talking about could be a station wagon and in front of it is an edited strip different from the back ground that could have replaced another automobile there. Looking at the left hand photo, Frazier could definitely see into the parking lot. Now, was that vehicle parked directly in front of the west end of the TSBD, or further back into the parking lot?

Thank you. That post was very interesting and instructive. I have never thought much of the Walker Incident. That is in the sense that the evidence was credible. So, I am going to attempt to summarize things for my own benefit. Take the Walker photo that you didn’t mention. This is it: Some one has manipulated the evidence. The license plate on the vehicle has been removed. Who did that? Lee Harvey, Marina, Ruth Paine, the authorities, or sinister forces? No one knows, or claims ownership of the deed. Would this be used it court? I understand why you didn’t mention this. What evidence is available to connect this to Oswald? Marina’s statements. She said Oswald told her he shot at Walker. Supposedly, there was a photo album with more photos of Walker’s house. She said Oswald burned it after the incident. Can the words of Marina Oswald be trusted? It is my belief that Marina Oswald was a triple agent. Early records of her behavior indicate she was a Russian “Honey Pot” or prostitute agent used at first by the Soviet intelligent services. When she met Oswald she turned into a double agent to secure her real purpose which was to come to the USA. Marina immediately and willingly begin to cooperate with US intelligence folks. A marriage was arranged which was wanted by both sides. Marina said she had two husbands. I believe that to be true. These were Lee and Harvey Oswald of doppelganger fame. Here is a good example of the comparison of Lee and Marina and Harvey and Marina: Even though the faces are basically the same, the hair and ears tell a different story. Harvey, in the right hand photo, has a different hair pattern then Lee in the left hand photo. Harvey has a strange receding hairline which he covers up with a comb over. To see this pattern find Robert Oswald's picture of his brother home from the service and on a hunting trip in 1958. Lee, in the left hand photo, does not have this pattern. The photos are contemporaneous. In comparing ears, Harvey, in the left hand photo, has a fairly unique pattern of a double bend in his upper left ear rim. Lee lacks that. When she was safely in the US she turned to her real interests, the protection and promotion of the Soviet Union interests as a triple agent. Other than her statements and the photo found at the Paine’s house, what evidence connects it Oswald? Supposedly, the Walker photo was found at the same time as the Backyard Photos. What greater validity then to be found with the Backyard Photos? Marina’s credibility? She was found wanting by the Warren Commission and others over time. There was a note also discovered in a book sent by Ruth Paine, the mysterious Quaker CIA spy, to Marina about a month after the assassination. This note was used to incriminate Oswald. But, when examined by the FBI it did not have the fingerprints of Oswald or Marina on it, although it had the fingerprints of 7 others on it. The FBI found this note to be in Oswald’s handwriting. Others refute that. And, this note was found after several complete searches of the Paine residence. Marina said that Oswald made several scouting raids on the Walker home. He did this carrying his rifle. Oswald supposedly didn’t drive. I guess he took a bus and no one questioned his carrying a rifle in the city of Dallas. General Walker said the bullet the authorities gave him to examine was not right. It was not the same as the first one he examined at the time of the shooting. Oswald’s alleged rifle was a Carcano firing a 6.5 cartridge. Walker claimed the bullet was a 30.06 round and not a 6.5 Carcano. Another piece of evidence come from a 14 year old boy. 14 year old boys are not generally believed when it comes to an assassination or other Kennedy matters. I give you Allen Smith as an example. Anyway, this 14 year old boy, Kirk Coleman, told the Dallas Police he heard a shot around 9 to 10:00 O’clock. He ran to his window and saw two men behind the General’s house. They put something in the trunk of a car. Then, they drove away. Oswald and accomplice, or Oswald by himself, or two totally different people? Could Oswald drive? It depends on who you talk to and which Oswald you are speaking about. Was Oswald tied to the rifle used at General Walker’s home? Despite Marina, many say no. They cite that Oswald never picked up the rifle at the Post Office. There is no proof that he did. He never paid for the rifle due to the money order not being cashed at a bank.

Thanks Richard, It is my belief that the Executive Branch of the government plotted and killed Kennedy. Nearly all of the heads of the various action arms of the Executive Branch were involved in some fashion or another. Maybe the ATF was left out, and the IRS had a small part, but certainly all the others had some part to play. I believe they hated Kennedy and thought he was a traitor by aiding Castro and Khruschev. Whether he was or not doesn't matter. It's what they thought that mattered. At the head of this cabal of executive branch agencies were the leaders influenced by LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, CIA leaders Dulles and Angleton, and various military leaders, particularly the ones that showed up at the autopsy. These were the primary groups involved in the assassination. Others were involved also, but at a lower level.

Thanks Tony, Not the fifth, but the 6th. I keep getting the feeling the various positions for things or sites was not for clarity.

The Kennedy Assassination was not a simple affair conducted by a small number of people. From what I understand the assassination was scheduled for: 1. Dallas 2. MIami 3. Chicago 4. Los Angeles 5, and others Different teams and patsies were selected for other places. People in different areas such as New Orleans and Miami knew about the assassination ahead of the time. What was the Clay Shaw affair about? This took more involvement of more people than just a handful. At the autopsy what were all those admirals and generals doing there? In control? What was the lights out in Washington at the time of the assassination about? Troops in the air? Who did that? Who turned off the power in the TSBD at that time? Why did Danny Arce have a hand radio on Houston Street? Why was William Shelley in New Orleans in August, 1963? And, so on! IMO, Dallas was the premier spot because of Dealey Plaza/ Murder Plaza. It was the best place for the assassination physically. It was at the end of the motorcade route with abundant places on the ground, and not in buildings to put snipers in close range to the p. limo's route.

Any idea where position "A" was, floor and window? 5th floor west or east and which window? 5 minutes from the shooting. Shouldn't the 3 black men, Norman, Jarman, and Williams, be there according to their testimony? Didn't Amos Euins daddy say you can't believe anything the boy says. Didn't he first describe this fellow as a white man?

More: The upper left-hand frame is Zapruder 002. The right-hand upper photo crop is from Altgens 6. And, the bottom photo crop is Altgens 5. This will need to be magnified for better viewing. Jack White said that if you compared the crowd at the east crosswalk of Elm in Altgens 5 with the crowd in the east crosswalk of Elm in Zapruder you would not find the same person in both Altgens photo and Zapruder frame. That is true. If you add Altgens 5 then you can say there is a possibility of one character being in both Altgens 5 and 6, but not Zapruder. There were 3 Dallas policemen assigned to monitor and supervise the intersection of Houston and Elm. These were Welcome Barnett, Joe Marshall Smith, and Edgar Leon Smith. If memory serves, these men were assigned to various locations there. Officer Barnett was in the center of Houston and Elm at the north crosswalk between the TSBD and the Dal-Tex building. Officer Joe Smith was in the middle of the Elm crosswalk between the Dal-Tex building and the Court Records Building. Officer Edgar Smith said he was leaning against or just below a set of widows at the Court Records Building. The Dallas Police officer seen in Altgens 5 and Altgens 6 may be Officer Joe Smith. With what little you can see of the crowd in Altgens 6, and with a wider view in Altgens 5 that is the only person I can identify as possibly being the same. With Zapruder 002 through in that is still the only policeman that can be identified. No policeman is seen in Zapruder 002 except 3 motorcycle policemen. There is a white van with “CLEAN” on the side. This vehicle is not seen in Zapruder or Altgens 6. But, folks none of these alterations are possible due to the photo being faxed to AP wire service in New York with ½ hour of it being taken. There was no time for alterations. So, how did the alterations such as Doorway Man’s mask get into the photo? Here’s one more alteration just for the heck of it: This argument was the first I read about on another site concerning Altgens 6 validity. The shorter shadow was supposed to be the shadow of Jean Hill and the longer shadow that of Mary Moorman. The perspective in this is certainly strange. The p. limo’s position is supposedly equal to Zapruder frame 255. Jean Hill is not seen until Z 287. Painted shadows and strange perspective. In this photo we can see a portion of the people I call Manniken Row, maybe 4 people in the eastern part at the beginning of the row. There are roughly 19 people there in Zapruder. Well, in Zapruder, but not others. Stange perspective again asks shouldn’t we see the Stemmons Sign if this truly is the p. limo’s position at Z 255. We first see the p. limo come out from behind the Stemmons sign at Z 213 or so. And, we should see that sign if we seen Hill and Moorman’s shadows beginning at Z 287. That’s about 60 feet between the two, Stemmons Sign and Hill/Moorman shadows. Strange perspective or alterations.

Andrej, I know how much work you have put into this part of the assassination story. I appreciate it even though I may disagree from time to time on certain points. Your take on Frazier is the right one. I simply take Frazier's position as one of deception that he must continue for his own reasons even until today. Prayerman is Oswald (Harvey). Or, at least one of them. There were two at the TSBD that day. Harvey on Elm Street (John Martin film) during the shooting, a few seconds later as Prayerman. Lee supposedly in the Sniper's Nest. There is only one problem with this. Who is the Doorway Man in Altgens 6. It sure isn't Billie Lovelady. I have a hard time thinking of a third Oswald as Doorway Man. The photo altering of Doorway Man is poor due to rushing the photo to the public. Doorway Man is someone who the assassination cover up artists didn't want known so they covered his face with a Lovelady mask. He is an individual who would have blown the cover up. So, who was he? I don't know.

Andrej, Excellent reasoning. This further sets off alarms concerning Frazier.

Thanks Greg, I couldn't agree more. Oswald's legend of miltary adventures, communism, defection, and Cuban baiting were well known. Holt and Shelley's past deeds were not known pubicly. But, they could have been easily exposed because both were bad characters. Holt tells you in not so many words that he was an assassin amongst other things. His past is riddled with that kind of work for the various mobs and the CIA. Shelley's past is less known so until one reads about the William Sestons's spider's web at the TSBD. Being with the CIA, he must have known every thing going on there about drugs and gun running. It's all speculation. I think of it as forming a hypothesis rather than speculation, and then matching known facts against it. As far as redundant back ups I think there were several mostly in Bill Shelley's 10 man floor laying crew. This is one of my main speculations. Oswald (Harvey) was given an assignment. He was to photograph the parade as it passed TSBD. This Oswald was somewhat of a camera buff. He had expensive cameras, camera equipment, and even a spy camera. He can be seen in two places. The door to the Elm Street and on the TSBD porch and steps and on Elm Street below the tree at the TSBD. Where does this spec come from. The John Martin film and ties into Prayerman. John Martin's film shows this image as a Prayerman-Oswald figure on Elm Street just below the trees in front of the TSBD. Notice how he is holding his camera. It is the same as Prayerman holding his object which I believe is a camera. There are a number of interesting things in the John Martin film. Who was the High Plains Drifer character sitting on the perch opposite of Oswald? This image suggests Oswald had photos of the assassination. What did he do with the camera and film. There is an Oswald figure there that resembles Prayerman. When I brought this to the forum it ended a super large thread about Prayerman. The thread was removed. Since that time there were others that thought this was not Oswald and just a look alike. Here's what I think. Oswald was given an assignment just prior to the day of the assassination. He was told to film the motorcade. He did this standing under the trees in front of the TSBD. Oswald went back to the Payne's home Thursday night to get his camera equipment. The camera he used was mounted in a two handed camera mount. He used a regular paper bag from the grocery to carry his camera. This is why his hands are separated by about a foot. The image of Oswald you see here is about as clear as Prayerman's image in other films. You can see in other frames that Oswald's camera flashes. Oswald was combat trained. He was a marine. People like that being in a his position would seek cover and concealment due to the shooting. He did that on the porch of the TSBD as seen in Prayerman. Prayerman can't be seen or be available for east-west shooting. The image of this person is very similar to this frame showing Prayerman. This is about 40 seconds after the shooting. Some of the crew in Algens 6 has changed. The Elm Street Oswald had enough time to get to the TSBD enclosure by the time Darnell/Weigman filmed this. Buell Frazier can be see in this film frame. He can aslo be seen in Altgens 6. This means he stood by Doorway Man and said the figure was Billy Lovelady. He didn't see Prayerman and he is still on the porch in that setting with Prayerman. I don't know whether Frazier's tales are authentic or not. I agree with this. They could simply changed the name on the pistol and rifle purchases to say Bill Shelley or Billy Lovelady. Lovelady is a likely suspect to frame. They could forge anything the way they wanted it. I lost all credibility in Buell Frazier after he said the Doorwayman was Billy Lovelady. And, he didn't see Prayerman there. I agree that President Kennedy was not getting out of Dealey Plaza alive. Their were multiple shooting teams that would ensure that.

Thanks Greg, I have this notion of multiple "patsies". The ones I think were originally set up as patsies were Bill Shelley, Chauncy Holt, and Oswald. These 3 appear in a New Orleans TV film at the Trade Center run by Clay Shaw in August, 1963 I believe. Holt was left sitting in a train car loaded with explosives, Shelley is arrested, but not. Oswald is taken in. Bill Shelley was arrested at the TSBD. Then he wasn't arrested. That's a confusing story. Bill Lovelady, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce were taken in an questioned by the Dallas police. So, were other members of Bill Shelley's flooring crew on the 6th floor. That might be a good place to go looking for other co-conspirators. I just noticed the fat guy leaning against the tree in the photo below. He very well maybe the rotund fellow standing behind Doorway Man in Altgens 6. Check this photo out: Accidents with police, witnesses, and guns going off or not going off happened during this investigation. Does Bill Shelley look surprised and afraid? Danny Arce is another suspicious character. In particular, where he was at when the assassination occurred. He is caught in Altgens 6 holding a radio or handphone. I also think, not sure, he had radical Cuban relatives. Who is he communicating with? and, Why? As far as the 3 black men on the 5th floor, it is my belief that the Dallas Police and the FBI could have gotten those men to say anything they wanted. Jim Crow days were still alive in Texas in 1969 when I spent about a year there. Add suspicion of assassination and they would have said anything. Of the three I use Bonnie Ray Williams as an example of a witness changing stories to suit what the authorities wanted. It's been a while since I thought of Williams, but Williams first said he heard shooting on Houston Street at the intersection, then he later changed that to Elm Street intersection, then to in front of the TSBD, and lastly he got it right. Pass the TSBD and down the street towards the Grassy Knoll. I would like to read the testimonies of the folks who said they thought someone on the 5th floor fired a rifle. Could you list those folks, please. Thanks again

Thanks Greg, Many people don't trust Mary Hollies as a witness then and later. Where that info came from was: Mary Hollies: The girl in the window For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Hope that helps. My own conclusions are that there was no shooting from the Sniper's Nest or the fifth floor. Possible exception could be shooting from the west end of the building which a witness or witnesses saw a man with a rifle. She claimed she was on the fifth floor with Alice Foster, a friend or fellow worker. That makes Jack Daughtery, Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and Jr. Jarman. There was other people there according to witnesses on the street. Kind of crowded for an assassination.

Greg, FWIW, Mary Hollies and Alice Foster claimed, in later testimony, that they were on the fifth floor rather than the fourth floor. Mary Hollies said she saw and heard Bonnie Ray Williams bring the elevator down and leave the gate open to keep it there on the 5th floor at about 12:15. She also said she saw Oswald go up prior to that with a large paper package. When asked Oswald said it was fishing rods. When asked to send the elevator back down he ignored them. I would like to challenge your notions of shooting from the 5th and 6th floor with witnesses from the 4th floor. These witnesses had their windows open and were about 40 ft. from the Sniper's Nest and less to the 5th floor. They would have heard shots from above. Particularly if these shots were from high power rifles. 40 feet is less then the distance across most American homes. I know it is baffling what these witness said in comparison to others. Witness Statements: 1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. Didn't say where the shot came from. 2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that. An unreliable witness. 3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman. He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left. That is shooting from Houston Street. This could be from the Dal-Tex. 4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west. Heard shots from there. Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011. This later statement contradicts her earlier statements in 1963 and 1964. 5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. 6. Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report. She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St. She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street at the Court Records Building. 7. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information. However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots. Her statements agreed with Vickie Adams. Reference: Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin. 8. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots. She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees. And, that would be in front of the TSBD. Shots came from the west. 9. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Shots came from the west. 10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Shots came from the west. 11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Shots came from the west. Sorry, but there is always something that will contradict your assumptions on just about anything in the events of the Kennedy Assassination.

That's the whole theme of the Kennedy assassination. And, why should I do that? I'll do one explanation and that's it for a personal reason. Altgens 6 represents the location of the p. limo in front of the Stemmons sign equivalent to Zapruder frame 255. I contend that is not true for various reasons. Here's one. The majority of witnesses I surveyed and collected, 105+ witnesses, say that shooting occurred in front the TSBD under the trees. There are no trees further down Elm. And, certainly not down by the Stemmons sign and passed it in front of the Grassy Knoll. I like to flaunt these witnesses that almost everyone ignores. How many witnesses do you believe before you are convinced of something. 1? 5? 90? Let's take what this current thread is talking about and put Oswald on trial with some of the information we get from Vickie Adams and other 4th floor witnesses. All, except Elsie Dorman, said shooting occurred while the p. limo was under trees and out of sight. Most, except Elsie Dorman, said shooting came from the west. And, Mary Hollies who said the thought it came from the building. Each of the following witnesses would say "Yes, I heard shooting while sight of the president was obscured by trees below. And, the shooting came from the west of the building. This would be: Vickie Adams Sandra Styles did not say at the time, but later said much the same as Vickie Adams. Dorothy Gardner Elsie Dorman said shooting came from the Court Records Building. Yola Hopson Ruth Nelson Steve Wilson on the third floor There are some unreliable witnesses: Bonnie Ray Williams Mary Hollies Alice Foster What if we put them into the witness chair (one after the other) at Oswald's trial. What would be the effect? Do you think Oswald would walk based on reasonable doubt? Once again, how many witnesses does it take to be believable? Sorry, but you are on the list of people I don't talk to because it is a waste of time. I answered only because of a personal reason. I like to flaunt the 105+ witness list that nobody pays attention to. If you have been paying attention I have done that several times.

This doesn't mean that the photo transmitted at 30 minutes after the assassination ( about 1:00 CST) is the one that showed up on Walter Cronkite news at 5:30 CST and is the one we use today.

Vickie Adams statements on the murder of President Kennedy: 11-24-63- Vickie Adams- FBI statement- She heard 3 shots which sounded if they came from the right. Her view of p. limo and what was occurring when she heard the 3 shots was blocked by trees. She did not mention seeing Shelley and Lovelady. 2-17-64- Vickie Adams- Jim Leavelle’s (Dallas Police detective) statement- She said she heard 3 shots. After the second shot she saw a Secret Service man run to the back of the p. limo. She runs down the stairs and sees Bill Shelley and an employee named Bill. She does not say where she saw them. But, this statement was made between two other statements concerning whether the elevators were running. These statements by Leavelle directly contradicts things said on 11-24-63. 3-23-64- Vickie Adams- FBI statement- She said she heard 3 shots. She thought they were firecrackers. But, on see all the confusion below she knew they were shots. The p. limo passed below. Then she saw the p. limo speed away. (nothing about trees here, but the language is confusing) 4-7-64- Warren Commission testimony- Her view of the p. limo was obstructed by trees as they passed below on the street. She heard a shot then the record stops there. It is as if it was edited. She explains to Belin her view was blocked by a tree and immediately goes on to explain the shooting sequence. Her view of the p. limo was blocked when she heard the shooting. Her WC testimony goes on to say after running down the steps she sees Shelley and Lovelady. It does not say where she saw them on the first floor or by the elevators. Assessment: 1. She heard 3 shots. They sounded as if they came from the right. Her view of the shooting was blocked by trees. She said nothing about Lovelady and Shelley. 2. The idea that Shelley and Lovelady are by the elevator is introduced in a vague sort of way in the 2-17-64 Detective Leavelle interview of Vickie Adams. 3. Vickie Adams statement to the FBI on 3-23-64 she says nothing about her viewing being blocked by trees or of seeing Shelley and Lovelady. 4. The 4-7-64 WC statement is more in tune with what she originally said except for seeing Shelley and Lovelady. She did not say she saw them by the elevators. Nowhere in the early statements of Vickie Adams was there anything directly said about seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevators. There is a loose connection, or an inference that could be made saying they were by the elevators in the Leavelle interview of 2-17-64.

Again! I've trying clearing this out but it won't go away.

Stupid editor.