John Butler

Here is an example of shot trajectories from the railroad bridge to various places on Elm Street at Z frame locations Z 02, Z 133, and Z 160 based on a 15 degree angle. These calculations are to find the height above Elm Street at the bridge for the various shots. The first example at Z 02 gives a value of about 52 feet. There were no helicopters, planes, blimps, or UFOs. This example is way to high. The second uses Z 133 for that place and places in the Zapruder Gap. The height 38 is feet. this might be possible for a shot if the railroad bridge is 30 feet high. The third example is for Z 160. And the height is 35 feet. A shot at Z 160 might be possible if the bridge is 27 feet high. Based on this photo showing trajectories at 15 degree angles. This is best guessing.

Here is some foolishness of mine. A 15 degree angle from the throat wound to the windshield. There is also a 3 degree rise as calculated by Chris Bristow. And, if you add a 3 degree fall off for the slope downhill on hill you will have 6 degrees between the two. A shot from the railroad bridge to Z frame 2 would not be possible since it would be from about 52 feet in the air. David, I get it. There must have been something else hit the windshield after Altgens 6.

Chris, I have been waiting to hear from you. Sensible comment suggesting there is much variation and a problem that may not be solvable.

David, I took this to be the original windshield in Altgens 6 and the other provided by the WC was a replacement windshield with cracks and no shot through the windshield. Many witnesses saw a through and through hole as it is said to be.

David, Thanks for the correction. A shot from the South Knoll at Z225 as calculated by Chris Barnard and Chris Bristow is possible with a 15 degree angle.

And, things get stranger. This projection is very different from the first. The first try points one to the middle of the railroad bridge to the southern end. (That may be an illusion of magnification in that photo) The second points one to the north end of the bridge. These projections point to shooting from the Grassy Knoll or from the railroad bridge further west. And, I don't know why. Might be the magnification of both photos? This fits the Accepted Story better than a shot from the South Knoll. Any shooting from within the Zapruder Gap would fall between those two lines.

David, Thanks for that post. If I read you correctly you are saying a shot from the South Knoll can be ruled out. You are using Altgens 6 here which is believed to be at Z 255 or so. One second down from where Chris is using Z 225.

Chris, So, you found no fault with the 15 inch projection from the intersection and Z frame 160. That's very interesting. When the p. limo starts down hill it is the crosswalk area which would be about Z frame 1 or 2. Here is Z frame 2 which indicates the 3 degree slope starts at the corner of the SW corner area at the where the support for the cross street signs is located. Would that lower the angle from this position? Could you give a best guess at what that 3 degree angle would be at Z 160? In order for a shot to be from a train on the railroad bridge the shot would more than likely be made from 7 to 8 feet above the height of the railroad bridge at Main St. or Commerce. The height of the railroad bridge is a known number but, since I can't find that on google anymore someone else needs to post it. The distance from Z frame 1 or 2 is for Elm and Commerce are about the same 494 and from Houston to Main St at the bridge 425 feet. Why 7 or 8 feet? The height of the average train is 14 ft. to 16 ft.

Paul, Ron may have something here. A .22 round is just a bit smaller than a .223 round used in an M16 or AR 15. They are essentially the same. The projectiles are similar is size but not in capability in different rounds. The AR 15 shoots the .223 round at about 2800 fps. Whereas, a .22 is generally subsonic. The big difference is the .223 is designed as a man-killer for the military.

Here's my humble attempt to calculate a 15 degree angle form positions further back then Z Frame 225 at the Stemmons sign. What I tried to do here is show that positions further back in front of the TSBD show a different result than the South Knoll: IMO, the railroad bridge can not easily be ruled out.

I prefer first day witness statements made at the Sheriff's Office or the Dallas Police. Later statements, particularly if they change what was said earlier, in IMO suffer from FBI or Secret Service corruption, intimidation, and witness tampering. A blatant example is the 4 statements of Bonnie Ray Williams. Virgie Baker's change in testimony, in IMO, reflects FBI witness tampering. Skelton's statement is not at all vague. He heard firecrackers (shooting) when the p. limo turned into the intersection in front of the TSBD. Where I fault Skelton and the other railroad workers is they were not on the railroad bridge as the p. limo approached as seen in the phony Altgens 7 photo. My best guess they were off to the side just off the railroad bridge. There are 5 film frames and photos showing they were not on the bridge contrary to Altgens 7. They lied to Mark Lane and he ate it up with filmed interviews. My speculation is these men were told by their employers, the owners of the railroad yards and trains, to make those statements of seeing smoke on the Grassy Knoll to divert attention away from the railroad bridge, any train on the bridge, and the one in the railroad yards filmed by Hughes..

It's not just my opinion. The cracked windshield is not the same as the one in the p. limo on Nov. 22, 1963. In reference I give you Altgens 6 and 7 and this: David Winnett says: October 15, 2020 at 11:13 pm That flies in the face of a videotaped interview with the manager of Ford’s glass division in Michigan who says that on the Monday morning following the Friday assassination he was shocked to come to work to find the Lincoln JFK was killed in was in his shop. LBJ ordered the car flown to Detroit to be completely rebuilt. This man said that there was a through and through bullet hole in the windshield that showed a frontal entry. He was ordered to “shred” the windshield, which he did. This interview can be seen in the video series “The Men Who Killed Kennedy”. There are also witnesses who saw the hole. Next argument: South Knoll or railroad bridge? I am making a case for the railroad bridge.

Rick, Thanks. The photos are appreciated. Will keep copies. There's is a great thread on this by Chris Barnard. I don't see how I initially missed this or forgot it. It was posted in Sept.

Not mentioned above is Chris' reasoning that the trajectory of the shot is at an angle of 15 degrees. Here is my humble attempt to draw 15 degree angles for the p. limo to be in front of the TSBD. This needs to be checked. This is pretty much what I thought if you move the p.limo/throat/windshield shot back up the street from Z frame 225 to an earlier frame such as Z 160 and whatever would match the Elm/Houston intersection and one that covers the front of the TSBD, you would have an area that covers the Triple Underpass. Well, Well, Well.... Chauncy Holt shooting from a Triple Underpass boxcar may not be as a wild-eyed speculation as one would think. Now, If I am not wrong, there is a tad, I say a tad, of factual evidence to support claims like that. *don't pay attention to this below. It is something this stupid editor won't let me delete!!!

Hi Mark, You haven't posted in a while. Glad to see you back with your simulation. Although, I have argued against a thing or two in your work, overall I find it admirable. A couple of things here: 1. Royce Skelton (on top of the triple overpass), November 22, 1963: “We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 19H496] 2. Virgie Baker- FBI Report 11 25 63- “…went out the south door of Texas School Book Depository to watch the motor cade pass. She was standing across the street immediately in front of this building…She observed President KENNEDY’S pass her point of observation and almost immediately thereafter her 3 explosions. Immediately thereafter is in front of the TSBD. These are two of 105 witnesses that most say the same thing. There are a several oddball witnesses that say they heard shooting while the p. limo was on Main Street, or that the president was shot in the head in the intersection turn, or basically things that most people won't believe. Chris Bristow has done amazingly good work on the hole in the p. limo windshield. He lines up the trajectory from the president's throat wound to the windshield hole to the South Knoll parking lot. You may want to check that out. He puts the shot at Z frame 225. I think earlier and would like to see the same calculations for Z 160, Z 133, and now since you mentioned it Z 190. Z 190 that is in accord with your thinking. Secondly, This photo is for the learned, those who have studied this in detail. However, folks like me don't have a clue as to what the numbers and letters mean. Can you provide information on what these numbers and letters mean? Thanks,

Chris, This explains exactly what I have been trying to get at. And, that is an excellent job. Except for one thing. This is based on Z frame 215 at the Stemmons sign. There are many people including myself who believe that the shooting started much earlier than Z frame 215. I have 105 witnesses who said shooting occurred on Elm/Houston and in front of the TSBD. David Josephs, an excellent researcher, believes the first shot was a Z frame 160. I am sure he will correct me if I have that wrong. I go further than that by saying shooting occurred in the Zapruder Gap. Is there a way to reset this calculation for Z frame 160 based on D. Josephs work which puts the p. limo at the SW corner of the TSBD. And, at Z frame 133 to represent shooting in the Zapruder Gap. Josephs, if I am reading correctly his recent statements, places the car stop in the Zapruder Gap at the intersection. This if I am recalling correctly is where Truly said it was. So, there is good reason to believe Z frame 215 may be incorrect and for the purposes of research alternative locations should be calculated. Keep up the good work,

Chris, This is not the best illustration due to the p. limo still being at an angle. However, it is sufficient to show that there is a greater degree of the trajectory of the neck wound to the windshield hole that shows a SW bearing toward the area of the South Grassy Knoll/Triple Underpass. A complete overhead view would probably show a greater variance to the SW toward the South Grassy Knoll/Triple Underpass then the one above. That needs to be tied down. I keep mentioning the area of the Triple Underpass as possibly a shooting area. If that idea can't be eliminated then that brings up the problem of a train (The Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza) on the railroad bridge and shooting from there. There is a big argument on that. I favor the train being there for various reasons already discussed several times. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for the clarification Chris, So, the South Knoll is your favored location for this windshield shot. But, could that extend over to the railroad bridge, say above Commerce St.? From a truck there in the parking lot shot could be made. Unless the p. limo is placed perfectly I would say there would be a greater variance in direction of the lineup. I'll try to find one of those illustrations by Specter of someone else showing an overhead view of the p. limo.

Chris, No planes, helicopters, blimps, or UFOs with little green assassins. After thinking about it the South Knoll and southern Triple Underpass area seems reasonable. The hole in the windshield is in the left half of the windshield near the mirror. President Kennedy is sitting in the right half of the windshield area (so to speak). He is in the right rear passenger seat. This gives the direction of the trajectory for the hole shot. Left to right gives the area of the South Knoll and southern end of the Triple Underpass new acceptability. However, a shot from the a truck on Commerce seem to be at a lower elevation. The p. limo at the Stemmons sign area is pointed down hill at 3 degrees if memory serves. Here's the Cancellare photo showing the truck on Commerce as down hill from the Stemmons sign area. This is probably 100 feet or so down hill from the sign area at a lower elevation. In other words from the truck would be shooting upward. A shot from the parking lot is higher elevation and might be the correct height for the shot. It would give a straighter or more level shot. It would be more or less the same as shooting from the railroad bridge which might center the shot better. Here is a more sensible trajectory angle. It is from Z 228 (for a clearer frame) as versus Altgens 6. Does the Z 228 trajectory make more sense than Altgens? I don't know where this angle ends up.

Thanks for the comment Chris, This strange lineup of hole and throat appears to go way up into the sky. It's as if this was shot from a plane or helicopter. There were neither planes or helicopters in Dealey Plaza that day. So, I have to disagree on the South Knoll since it is down hill (slightly) from the Stemmons sign area. Those measurements could be taken if one accepts numbers that are close, but not exact. It would be interesting if you did a rough estimate. Chris, I thought the line might be strange because I magnified the Altgens 6 shot. Tried it again with the photo at normal scale and this one seems even steeper: It looks like a shot from the top of a tall building. Totally out of place and reasoning here. I have no explanations. Any one who does please reply. Here is an example of an imaginary shot from the Sniper's Nest to Houston Street as an example of angle. They are similar. It is if the throat wound/hole in the windshield is shot from a tall building. Don't get me wrong here. This is just a speculative endeavor. I believe, as I have said many times in the past, that no one fired a shot from the Sniper's Nest. There are plenty witnesses that say that. It's strange and a mystery. I hope someone can clarify.

Chris, Great comment. Here's an example of windshield holes made by an AK 47. This could suggest the hole in the p. limo was caused by a medium powered rifle at about 2000 fps. Some people think that the hole in the p. limo in Altgens 6 connects to the frontal shot into Kennedy's throat. I linked the neck wound and the winshield hole and have this. This doesn't look right. What do you make of this? It is a strange angle.

I don't think it is the same windshield. Adjusting for angles the spot for the defect in Altgens 6 and 7 appear to be the same. Altgens 6 looks like a hole. That is very similar to other photos showing gunshots through a windshield. They have roughly the same shape. There are no radiating cracks in the windshield in either photo.

Well said.

I had intuitively sensed at the beginning Oswald was not in Mexico City when claimed. But, I had no real evidence to support the idea, just intuition based on phony photos and such. Many thanks to David Josephs for providing the evidence to support my intuitive sense. I believe he should be given the credit for destroying that nonsense.

It's for sure gun shot wounds do strange things. However, I can't get a handle on a slow round producing a fast fragment on impact. Is that even possible? A sub-sonic round is below 1100 feet per second. That's a low powered round in comparison to speeds of 2600 to 3000 fps. That's a high powered hunting or military round. What I don't see is the lower powered round producing the shock necessary to send a faster bone fragment or fragment of itself elsewhere at a faster speed. I question the validity of that. And, maybe some gun expert will provide a sensible explanation for such an event. Maybe? Ron has an excellently good point. There are others who said the same thing. Jim DiEugenio mentions two people posing such an idea. Consdering, I think they are just distraction arguments defending gunshots wounds to the back rather than a gunshot wound to the throat from the front.