The Cellar on Nov.21/22, 1963

[Jack White]

In 1970-71, The Cellar was uptown and UPSTAIRS. You were never in the ORIGINAL CELLAR that

the SS agents attended in 1963. The 1963 Cellar was as I described it...a COFFEE HOUSE.

The entire SS Cellar episode is covered in detail in various books. The original DOWNSTAIRS CELLAR

was nothing like the later UPSTAIRS Cellar.

Several of my coworkers went there often. In the 50s and early 60s, before it was demolished,

they described it as a venue for amateurs, folk music, comedy etc. This was BEFORE rock music.

Jack

You're right it was upstairs and probably a very different animal--thanks for the info--as to the books where this is discussed, which ones do you think are the closest to truth in retelling the Cellar episode?

I have all the books but have not read them in more than 20 years, so really cannot help you.

Vince Palamara is probably the best source of information.

Jack

[Jamey Flanagan]

I was watching a video on YouTube from the channel America's Untold Stories and one of the two guys on there talking about the JFK assassination said that the night before the assassination, in The Cellar, where the Secret Service agents were partying well into the early morning hours of the 22nd, that there was a comedian in there doing impressions of JFK that had all the agents laughing like crazy. Then he said that it was George Carlin. Anyone know if this is true? I had never heard this story before. I Googled all kinds of related search terms but couldn't find any articles or web pages about that particular night. I did see that Carlin was at one time a performer at The Cellar and when I Googled George Carlin JFK the word impression popped up in search terms. Couldn't find anything linking Carlin to the SS agents party though. Has anyone else heard this story? You'd think that if it were true though that Carlin would've mentioned something about it at some point in his routine over the years. Unless he just wanted to hide it or distance himself from it.

[Pete Mellor]

18 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

I was watching a video on YouTube from the channel America's Untold Stories and one of the two guys on there talking about the JFK assassination said that the night before the assassination, in The Cellar, where the Secret Service agents were partying well into the early morning hours of the 22nd, that there was a comedian in there doing impressions of JFK that had all the agents laughing like crazy. Then he said that it was George Carlin. Anyone know if this is true? I had never heard this story before. I Googled all kinds of related search terms but couldn't find any articles or web pages about that particular night. I did see that Carlin was at one time a performer at The Cellar and when I Googled George Carlin JFK the word impression popped up in search terms. Couldn't find anything linking Carlin to the SS agents party though. Has anyone else heard this story? You'd think that if it were true though that Carlin would've mentioned something about it at some point in his routine over the years. Unless he just wanted to hide it or distance himself from it.

Jamey, this rings a distant memory from somewhere.  Got this from Wiki=

In 1959, Carlin met Jack Burns, a fellow DJ at radio station KXOL in Fort Worth, Texas.^[23] They formed a comedy team and after successful performances at Fort Worth's beat coffeehouse called The Cellar, Burns and Carlin headed for California in February 1960.

So it certainly seems possible.

[Vince Palamara]

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

@Vince Palamarahave you ever heard anything about comedian George Carlin being there at The Cellar that night and entertaining the SS agents with his JFK impression?

[Vince Palamara]

15 minutes ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

@Vince Palamarahave you ever heard anything about comedian George Carlin being there at The Cellar that night and entertaining the SS agents with his JFK impression?

No, but that is fascinating if true!

[Joe Bauer]

Did the Cellar serve food?

One poster mentioned the Secret Service had an erratic eating schedule. I guess inferring that one of the reasons they popped into the Cellar was for a bite to eat?

Hot looking waitresses in bikini tops and bottoms is certainly a drawing card for anyone...including all those SS guys imo.

So, no alcohol? 

Drinks were what... root beer, lemonade, Coke, Sarsaparilla, Dr. Pepper, Orange Crush, iced tea, milk, coffee?

I can't see the bikini wearing waitresses getting big tips serving those old lady, kiddie, Pat Boone drinks.

I recall reading much more nefarious recollections of Kirkwood.

Did Ruby's Carousel dancer Little Lynn say she had such a bad experience in her short stint working at the Cellar she felt in fear of her life from retaliation by Kirkwood? She even got a gun for protection?

Little Lynn was busted for carrying a hand gun when she went through a search prior to her testimony in the Ruby Trial?

She was booked and fingerprinted for that or something else.

Little Lynn knew much more than she ever publicly stated and even what she testified to in her Warren Commission testimony.

Kirkwood was much more a nefarious character than these Cellar defendants are portraying imo.

[James DiEugenio]

I always thought that Jim Marrs had the best section on this issue in the first edition of Crossfire.  And even Specter talked about it in a broadcast interview I saw.

Drew Pearson reported on it also.   "Obviously men who have been drinking until nearly 3 AM are in no condition to be trigger alert or in the best physical shape to protect anyone." (p. 246). Marrs writes that although the club did not serve alcohol, it did allow people to bring alcohol into the club.  The Secret Service hired firemen to protect Kennedy that night.

Kirkwood told Marrs that he did have liquor, but instead of selling it, he gave it away. He was especially in the habit of giving it to people he felt could help them in a pinch, like lawyers, politicians and cops.  For a story in the  Fort Worth Star Telegram, Kirkwood's mother said her son was very generous with giving out liquor. Sometimes handing out 500 bucks worth a month.

The way the Secret Service got there was that reporters from the Press Club called and said they did not have a license  to sell drinks after midnight.  So the Secret Service came to Kirkwood's club and they were laughing about how firemen were guarding Kennedy.  

Jimmy Hill, who worked there for years said that, later they got a call from the White House asking them not to say anything about the agents drinking in order to cover up for image purposes.  Hill said, "We didn't say anything, but those guys were bombed. They were drinking pure Everclear." (p. 248)

I would wager the call was from Rowley or Kelly .  Who were both into the cover up neck deep.

Edited September 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I always thought that Jim Marrs had the best section on this issue in the first edition of Crossfire.  And even Specter talked about it in a broadcast interview I saw.

Drew Pearson reported on it also.   "Obviously men who have been drinking until nearly 3 AM are in no condition to be trigger alert or in the best physical shape to protect anyone." (p. 246). Marrs writes that although the club did not serve alcohol, it did allow people to bring alcohol into the club.  The Secret Service hired firemen to protect Kennedy that night.

Kirkwood told Marrs that he did have liquor, but instead of selling it, he gave it away. He was especially in the habit of giving it to people he felt could help them in a pinch, like lawyers, politicians and cops.  For a story in the  Fort Worth Star Telegram, Kirkwood's mother said her son was very generous with giving out liquor. Sometimes handing out 500 bucks worth a month.

The way the Secret Service got there was that reporters from the Press Club called and said they did not have a license  to sell drinks after midnight.  So the Secret Service came to Kirkwood's club and they were laughing about how firemen were guarding Kennedy.  

Jimmy Hill, who worked there for years said that, later they got a call from the White House asking them not to say anything about the agents drinking in order to cover up for image purposes.  Hill said, "We didn't say anything, but those guys were bombed. They were drinking pure Everclear." (p. 248)

I would wager the call was from Rowley or Kelly .  Who were both into the cover up neck deep.

When one looks at the Secret Service's own report on this issue, one finds plenty to be concerned about. Landis, for example, did not provide a time for his return to the hotel. We have reason to suspect then that he hooked up with some broad, and reported straight to work after a fling. 

My understanding about the alcohol was that Kirkwood sold fruit drinks, and that the patrons routinely added alcohol to their fruit drinks. While a number of the agents admitted drinking at the press club, and having fruit drinks at The Cellar, I don't recall any of them admitting they'd added alcohol to their fruit drinks. But let's get serious. Outside of beatniks and hipsters, grown men didn't go out clubbing till 4 in the morning to drink fruit drinks. 

[Joseph McBride]

Corrupting a target's bodyguards is standard practice

in assassinations. Just look at MACBETH for how

Shakespeare shows the Macbeth couple getting

the king's bodyguards drunk so they are in no

state to protect him. Rowley should have fired

all the agents for breaking the rule about drinking

on duty and for getting inadequate sleep and leaving

the president basically unprotected. That they

were not fired but simply chastised was a key

element of the coverup. And it enabled some

to present themselves in a false light in history.

Both Johnson and Hoover did not have faith

in the Secret Service, partly as a result of 11/22.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Joseph McBride

[Joe Bauer]

For sure a few of the SS agents out of the entire force could have had drinking problems from time to time. 

And the Landis playing all night hooky with some willing woman act seems true.

Yet, as mentioned. I don't see 10 or more agents descending on the Cellar after midnight for just fruit drinks.

Young attractive waitresses in bikini's serving them might bolster the innocent angle but still, it's common professional sense that the motorcade agents would know they needed to be sleep rested sharp in their protective awareness duties the very next midmorning, guarding JFK in one of the most vulnerable situations like a fairly long motorcade under many high-rise buildings.

Whether those 10 Cellar visiting agents stayed from 1 to 3:am, their being out at those hours just hours before their full sharpness duties were required should have resulted in more than hand slapping behind closed doors.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Vince Palamara]

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I always thought that Jim Marrs had the best section on this issue in the first edition of Crossfire.  And even Specter talked about it in a broadcast interview I saw.

Drew Pearson reported on it also.   "Obviously men who have been drinking until nearly 3 AM are in no condition to be trigger alert or in the best physical shape to protect anyone." (p. 246). Marrs writes that although the club did not serve alcohol, it did allow people to bring alcohol into the club.  The Secret Service hired firemen to protect Kennedy that night.

Kirkwood told Marrs that he did have liquor, but instead of selling it, he gave it away. He was especially in the habit of giving it to people he felt could help them in a pinch, like lawyers, politicians and cops.  For a story in the  Fort Worth Star Telegram, Kirkwood's mother said her son was very generous with giving out liquor. Sometimes handing out 500 bucks worth a month.

The way the Secret Service got there was that reporters from the Press Club called and said they did not have a license  to sell drinks after midnight.  So the Secret Service came to Kirkwood's club and they were laughing about how firemen were guarding Kennedy.  

Jimmy Hill, who worked there for years said that, later they got a call from the White House asking them not to say anything about the agents drinking in order to cover up for image purposes.  Hill said, "We didn't say anything, but those guys were bombed. They were drinking pure Everclear." (p. 248)

I would wager the call was from Rowley or Kelly .  Who were both into the cover up neck deep.

THE DREW PEARSON ARTICLE: