John Dugan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 OpEdNewsOriginal Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_ji..._of_jfk_fil.htm February 5, 2008 New Proof of JFK Film Fakery: "Conclusive Evidence," Experts Claim By Jim Fetzer Madison, WI (OpEdNews) February 5, 2008 — The editor of Assassination Research, James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., has announced the discovery of new proof that the home movies of the assassination of JFK known as the Zapruder film and a second known as the Nix film are fakes. (The Nix film was taken from the opposite side looking toward “the grassy knoll.”) Both were subject to extensive alteration to fabricate evidence of the crime and keep the truth about the sequence of events in Dealey Plaza from the American people. Fetzer, McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota, observed that the films are authentic only if the visible events they record correspond to the actual sequence of events at the time. “This proof is based upon the convergent testimony of motorcycle patrolmen, members of the Secret Service, and the Dallas Chief of Police. That it contradicts the official account of the assassination recorded in the films qualifies as a major breakthrough.” Part of the power of Costella’s new findings is that they can be appraised by anyone with access to the film, which is archived at the same site, and his collation of reports at Assassination Research 5/1 (2007), assassinationresearch/v5n1/v5n1costella.pdf . As illustrations of what he has uncovered, here are some of the reports from the officials who were involved: * James Chaney (motorcycle patrolman on right rear of the Presidential limousine): “I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and that Parkland was standing by.” * Bobby Hargis (motorcycle patrolman on left rear of the Presidential limousine): “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” * Winston Lawson (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle escort officer pulled along side our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over the radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” * Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle patrolman pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled, ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer responded in the affirmative.” * Chief Jesse Curry (in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “. . . about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney, rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said ‘Has somebody been shot?” And he said, ‘I think so.’” I have been watching all the you tubes from the Duluth Symposium on Zapruder Film Alteration (2003). I've watched the Costello, Lifton, and Fetzer presentation and I am in the middle of the Healey Presentation. They are all very well done. Lots of interesting facts and photos. I just don't think the above statements from the motorcycle cops, SS agents, and Chief Curry should be used as proof that the Z-film has been altered. The statements never state proximity or location - so how can it be assumed that that these actions happened before the overpass? And there is no rhyme or reason why the alterationists would alter all the films and pictures to show the motorcycle cops in different locations. There are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) You are not familiar with what the witnesses said... Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345] Edited February 1, 2010 by Jack White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dugan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible. Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible. Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them. You have a cognitive deficiency. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest James H. Fetzer Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) John, Jack has nailed this one down for you. When else do you suppose this happened? The location is specified: before reaching the Triple Underpass he rode ahead of the Presidential car. What is there you don't understand? Suggesting a witness was "clearly mistaken" absent some really good reason is simply begging the question by taking for granted what has to be proven on independent ground. He rode forward. There is no other time and place this could have happened. What, precisely, is your alternative explanation that makes more sense of the data? This is the only one that can explain it. You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible. Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them. Edited February 1, 2010 by James H. Fetzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Ah Jim.....see how that sneaks in there with hardly a nod or wink? The underpass in the witness statement becomes the Triple underpass in your restatement. Any thoughts on why that might be misleading? Jerry John, Jack has nailed this one down for you. When else do you suppose this happened? The location is specified: before reaching the Triple Underpass he rode ahead of the Presidential car. What is there you don't understand? Suggesting a witness was "clearly mistaken" absent some really good reason is simply begging the question by taking for granted what has to be proven on independent ground. He rode forward. There is no other time and place this could have happened. What, precisely, is your alternative explanation that makes more sense of the data? This is the only one that can explain it. You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came, well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap, and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital, and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President] had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas] Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548] Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin: “Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him [the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’ or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine), April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible. Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them. Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Jeffries Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film. Don, You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland. This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Unger Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film. Don, You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland. This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp. Jerry Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements. He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics. Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high freeway bridge for an underpass. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: “And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President] was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN +++ It makes sense that Greer's visual impetus to beat it would be not only seeing the head wounding, but seeing the motorcycle break formation faster than he did. Gotta go! Save my hide, at least. Edited February 1, 2010 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Scally Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass. Robin: I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film. Don, You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland. This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp. Jerry Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements. He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics. Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high freeway bridge for an underpass. Jack Jack, I think what you must have meant to write is that nobody would use the word underpass just like it's defined in every common dictionary. For instance, because it's quick and easy, the only definition of underpass in the Merriam-Webster online edition.... "a crossing of a highway and another way (as a road or railroad) at different levels; also : the lower level of such a crossing" It may be that when you go under a highway bridge through an underpass you don't think you're in an underpass. Many others do, including the people who write dictionaries. I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those? And when Chief Curry and Officer Brown said Chaney met the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp they really meant under the triple underpass? I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me. Jerry Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Logan Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 (edited) Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass. Robin: I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry. Chris. Chris, You're right. Here's a photo showing the second underpass. In 1963 you had to pass under three lanes of freeway to get to the Stemmons on ramp from Dealey Plaza. Best to you, Jerry Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964: Hargis: And at that time the Presidential car slowed down.(it did) I heard someone say ‘Get going,’ (if it was said, not shouted, then it seems to me more likely to be from the SS car, and Clint did) Mr. Stern: Someone inside... Mr. Hargis: I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car.(but knew the answer was important) And I remembered seeing Officer Chaney.(which he did) Chaney put his motor in first gear (which he heard) and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through (which he came to know and repeated) and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off (which it did) _________ Wonder how a drag race between (which was running very hot by now, possibly near regular backfiring point) the Limo and a that Harley at exactly the inclination, momentum etc would go? What was the rated Limo 0-100 (as a bench line)? Ditto that Harley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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