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Was it Lansdale?


Guest Mark Valenti
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Mark, that question was explored by a lot of people in regard to the Elrod encounter story and as I recall those efforts confirmed that Oswald was most certainly not being held in the general pick up cell area with all the routine arrests and custody prisoners. Which certainly makes sense, why one anyone put a cop killer and potential presidential assassin in with a batch of other people in an open row of holding cells and just close the door ....? Does that make any sense at all. I would want to check this out with Gary Mack for sure and there are others who would be certain as well but as I say, the work all of us did in checking out the claim that Elrod (who was one of those run of the mill arrests) was in a batch of cells along with Oswald certainly disproved that claim.

-- Larry

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That's sweet and all Graves. But the name Chambers, who booked the three men is not mentioned once in your narrative. Each of the three real hobos' arrest reports are signed by Chambers.

Capt Jones also doesn't appear in the Wise narrative, but do in Chambers'.

The name Wise does not appear with any of the EVIDENCE of their arrest and incarceration.

Why is that Graves?

And if you actually read the post you'd know Oswald was with them in the cell area. Was Oswald ever in the Sheriff's office or building Graves?

Edited by David Josephs
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That's sweet and all Graves. But the name Chambers, who booked the three men is not mentioned once in your narrative. Each of the three real hobos' arrest reports are signed by Chambers.

Capt Jones also doesn't appear in the Wise narrative, but do in Chambers'.

The name Wise does not appear with any of the EVIDENCE of their arrest and incarceration.

Why is that Graves?

And if you actually read the post you'd know Oswald was with them in the cell area. Was Oswald ever in the Sheriff's office or building Graves?

Dear David,

If you would make the huge effort to click on the link I provided, you could read the complete report of the FBI's interview of Marvin Wise. Here it is again, just to make it real easy for you:

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

And if you were to take on the herculean task of actually reading the report, you would see that Chamber's name is mentioned several times in it.

Just because I didn't include Chamber's name in my "narrative", don't get even more paranoid than you may already be.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I was reading those reports and writing about the tramps and analyzing those photos years before you learned how to turn on a computer.

That you chose the quotes and did not include an explanation regarding Chambers simply shows the quality of your work.

That you cannot see the difference between the men in the photos and the story as told by your three tramps, is well, expected.

In your attempt at humor at my expense you use the word "paranoid" incorrectly. You didn't include Chambers or Jones since you cannot connect them to the three men in the images from DP.

We're all sorry you have so much trouble following along but you reading one report and calling it research is par for the Graves course of just enough to sound like you did the work but not enough to know what you're talking about.

Thanks for trying though... now post something witty with sunshine TOMMY and let the adults get back to work.

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I was reading those reports and writing about the tramps and analyzing those photos years before you learned how to turn on a computer.

That you chose the quotes and did not include an explanation regarding Chambers simply shows the quality of your work.

That you cannot see the difference between the men in the photos and the story as told by your three tramps, is well, expected.

In your attempt at humor at my expense you use the word "paranoid" incorrectly. You didn't include Chambers or Jones since you cannot connect them to the three men in the images from DP.

We're all sorry you have so much trouble following along but you reading one report and calling it research is par for the Graves course of just enough to sound like you did the work but not enough to know what you're talking about.

Thanks for trying though... now post something witty with sunshine TOMMY and let the adults get back to work.

Dear David,

It seemed to me that one of the things that you and Valenti were debating was whether or not Wise took the three tramps "Abrams, Doyle, and Gedney" from Sheriff Decker's office to Police Captain Fritz in Homicide and then back to the Sheriff Decker's Office.

That's all I was trying to clear up.

I don't pretend to be anything like the great researcher that you obviously are.

Mahalo, Peace, Shalom,

--Tommy :sun

PS You're absolutely right. I should have said "paranoiac," instead.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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TOMMY, TOMMY...

As usual, You miss the entire point of the discussion. The men Wise parade around are not the three men in jail from the 22nd to the 26th but the men in the photos.

The three men processed by Chambers are the three you keep naming. We do not know who the men in the photos are, but many offer guesses from Holt, Sturgis, Harrelson, Hunt, and anyone else that may fit the bill.

What we do know is Harkness confirms that more than the three in those photos were taken from the trains... And what Chambers and Beck prove is that the men they are involved with are not the same as who Wise & initially Bass walk thru DP and eventually hand over to Decker.

So sorry this remains such a mystery to you... Your disingenuous salutation and backhanded compliments notwithstanding.

Btw, you still use the word incorrectly both grammatically and syntacticly.

Namaste

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Guest Mark Valenti

The three men in the famous DP photos are Doyle, Gedney and Abrams.

They were picked up in the train area and marched through Dealey Plaza around 2:30 pm - two hours after the assassination.

They were brought to the Sheriff's department.

They were then brought to the Dallas police department. At this time, there was an opportunity for them to see LHO.

They were then returned to the Sheriff's department.

Chambers wrote the arrest report at 4 pm.

He did not specifically remember doing so but admitted that his handwriting was on the report and that he had probably done so.

Officer Wise, who was ordered to go back and forth with the smelly tramps (Doyle, Gedney and Abrams) felt that they were innocent of involvement in the assassination.

There were many other people taken from the train tracks and brought to the various police agencies. They are not famous today because they were not photographed. They are lost to history. They may or may not have nefarious connections to the assassination.

Doyle, Gedney and Abrams (the three tramps in the famous photo) were held for several days and then released.

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And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event.

It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza.

Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor.

Brilliant.

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The three men in the famous DP photos are Doyle, Gedney and Abrams.

They were picked up in the train area and marched through Dealey Plaza around 2:30 pm - two hours after the assassination.

They were brought to the Sheriff's department.

They were then brought to the Dallas police department. At this time, there was an opportunity for them to see LHO.

They were then returned to the Sheriff's department.

Chambers wrote the arrest report at 4 pm.

He did not specifically remember doing so but admitted that his handwriting was on the report and that he had probably done so.

Officer Wise, who was ordered to go back and forth with the smelly tramps (Doyle, Gedney and Abrams) felt that they were innocent of involvement in the assassination.

There were many other people taken from the train tracks and brought to the various police agencies. They are not famous today because they were not photographed. They are lost to history. They may or may not have nefarious connections to the assassination.

Doyle, Gedney and Abrams (the three tramps in the famous photo) were held for several days and then released.

Well Mark, if (and only if) you're correct here, and if Prouty and Krulak are correct about Lansdale's image in the three tramps photo, then this scenario supports a benign hypothesis with regard to General Edward Lansdale's presence in Dealey Plaza.

Otherwise, if David Josephs is correct (and if that was Lansdale) then we are back to Prouty's claim, namely, that the three tramps were ACTORS, and this makes it almost impossible to support any benign hypothesis with regard to General Edward Lansdale's presence in Dealey Plaza.

Hmm...

My first instinct is to side with David Josephs on this. I think you're being unduly critical of Fletcher Prouty -- expecting perfection from the man.

Yet my decision to give Larry Hancock the benefit of the doubt about Lansdale obliges me to side with you on this point. The three tramps were really three tramps, and Edward Lansdale was rounding them up in his effort to find the real killers of JFK.

That's my result so far.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Guest Mark Valenti

And yet again Mr. V you fail to understand the evidence related to this event.

It's truly sad how some will cling so tightly to an opinion in the face of the evidence to the contrary.

Believe whatever you like but please don't be surprised when the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot and Santa also turn out not to be real And also were not in those photos from Dealey Plaza.

Oh, and JFK's brain weighed 1500 grams after Oswald shot him from the 6th Floor.

Brilliant.

Being honest here, no ill will intended. I really believe you have the kind of thinking process that actively looks for complicated, and unnecessary, solutions to the most basic questions. I don't believe it's possible to convince you you're wrong, or even to encourage you to consider alternatives. You have a world view and it creates bias in your research, imo. Of course there are far too many off-kilter elements to this case than any one person can name. But I think certain kinds of thinkers take it one or a hundred steps too far and create untenable theories they cannot be persuaded away from. You are in step with Cinque, Fetzer and Baker; I can't go there.

PS: David, there's nothing in that previous post of mine that you can logically refute. Unless you claim that the documents have been altered.

Edited by Mark Valenti
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The three tramps were really three tramps, and Edward Lansdale was rounding them up in his effort to find the real killers of JFK.

Why does that make me think immediately of O.J. trying to find the real killer of Nicole and her friend?

Not that I dismiss your position on this. But I also think that if it is Lansdale in the photo, instead of just walking on by the three tramps as he appears to do, he would do a double take at how much the third tramp looked like E. Howard Hunt.

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That raises and interesting question Ron.....Hunt had been part of the Bay of Pigs project but resigned most of his major duties there and left the Cuban project after the landings failed as I recall. He was not involved in the Mongoose era activities and ostensibly was detached to do things like help Dulles with his book...he had been a royal pain in regard to taking sides with the exile groups. I'm curious as to whether Lansdale had spent time around Hunt or would have recognized him at all. He would have recognized HQ types and senior JMWAVE officers due to his role in Mongoose but otherwise I'm not sure. You might check his Church committee interview to get a more specific look

at who he interacted with but I'm not sure Hunt was on that list.

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Larry - Lansdale did work closely with Hunt for a period of time and would undoubtedly recognize him.

Hunt did work directly under Dulles in the wake of the Bay of Pigs and until Dulles was let go, but the claims of him working on The Craft of Intelligence are exaggerated. Dulles gave Hunt a first pass at the book, and Hunt work tirelessly on it but could never make it work. Howard Roman in effect ghostwrote the book--not Hunt.

Edited by Brian Schmidt
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