Was it Lansdale?

[Larry Hancock]

Brian, could you give some more detail on when and where they worked together - not suggesting they didn't but just interested in the details I understand the references to the book work but I'd like to know more about

what Hunt was doing as of the end of 1961 and where it brought him into conduct with Lansdale during 1962....just curiosity.

[Ron Ecker]

Their clothes smelled. They were shabby and dirty. Marvin Wise said he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. He said they were "smelly"

In this photo the third tramp certainly looks like he smells something. And the lady seems to be holding her nose.

[Thomas Graves]

Their clothes smelled. They were shabby and dirty. Marvin Wise said he could smell wine on the breath of one of them. He said they were "smelly"

In this photo the third tramp certainly looks like he smells something. And the lady seems to be holding her nose.

For what it's worth, Dallas policeman Marvin Wise said that the paper bag "Abrams" was carrying at the time this photo was taken contained "a bar of soap, a shirt, a towel/rag, and a can of spam or vienna sausage," according to page 3 of this 3/8/92 FBI report:

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

Wise said that it had also had a new-looking jackknife in it when the three men were detained in the coal car of the train, but that he (Wise) had removed it and put it in his own waist band.

--Tommy

PS I guess the bag looks big enough to have all those things in it.

Either that or a very low frequency radio transmitter/receiver. LOL

Edited April 16, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Guest Mark Valenti]

From the lips of Fletcher Prouty:

"They're dressed in brand-new clothes; they've got new shoes on; they have new clothes on, they are not tramps."

Not sure what kind of dinner parties Prouty was invited to, but those tramps are wearing dirty clothes.

[Ron Ecker]

For what it's worth, Dallas policeman Marvin Wise said that the paper bag "Abrams" was carrying at the time this photo was taken contained "a bar of soap, a shirt, a towel/rag, and a can of spam or vienna sausage," according to page 3 of this 3/8/92 FBI report:

http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10310

Wise said that it had also had a new-looking jackknife in it when the three men were detained in the coal car of the train, but that he (Wise) had removed it and put it in his own waist band.

--Tommy

PS I guess the bag looks big enough to have all those things in it.

Either that or a very low frequency radio transmitter/receiver. LOL

if the third tramp in the photo is Hunt, he's probably thinking, "I knew I'd get left holding the bag."

[Thomas Graves]

From the lips of Fletcher Prouty:

"They're dressed in brand-new clothes; they've got new shoes on; they have new clothes on, they are not tramps."

Not sure what kind of dinner parties Prouty was invited to, but those tramps are wearing dirty clothes.

Good Intelligence operatives always dress properly for "the occasion".

[Roger DeLaria]

The first two appear reasonably clean and don't look like tramps to me, but the last guy could pass for having slept in a dumpster. I think the lady is just holding her hand in front of her face in a display of shock or being upset.

[Ron Ecker]

I recall reading somewhere that a couple of the tramps had gotten some "new" clothes from the Salvation Army (or maybe it was some other charity).

[David Andrews]

Notice that the dark tramp and the tall tramp seem to have been dressed in polo shirts. By the same hand, from the same store?

Don't judge the other two by the sloppy, dope-addict look of the tall one. They may not have started out as a trio, and the tall one has the only outlaw appearance among them:

"Harmless old souse"

Junkie convict from a line-up, did day work painting in those pants

Foreign mystery man with new jacket, popped collar, jeans - more West Coast than Dallas

Edited April 17, 2015 by David Andrews

[Brian Schmidt]

Larry, turns out my source for the Lansdale/Hunt info was again Prouty, who said they worked closely in OSO (kind of turning into a feedback-loop with all this Prouty as a primary source). However, I'm pretty sure I've seen it in other sources as well--I'll look into it. In any event, I don't think there's any way that Lansdale wouldn't recognize Hunt if he saw him on the street.

[Paul Trejo]

...I also think that if it is Lansdale in the photo, instead of just walking on by the three tramps as he appears to do, he would do a double take at how much the third tramp looked like E. Howard Hunt.

Well, Ron, I've often read that the third tramp looks like Howard Hunt, and I could never see why. That third tramp doesn't look like Howard Hunt to me.

Aside from the facial features which don't match, IMHO, the third tramp is shorter than average -- while Hunt was taller than average.

As for the official reports about the three actors, I'm also inclined to side with David Josephs on the weirdness of the documentation. It just doesn't flow normally. Granted, there was virtual chaos in Dallas that day, especially at the DPD and the Sheriff's office. But this was weird..

Anyway, no Howard Hunt look-alike in my opnion. In any case he's too short. Also, remember than in another 10 years Hunt will face the whole Watergate mess -- and the man in the photo in 1973 would be 10 years older -- and more crotchety. Now picture the dapper Howard Hunt who graced the pages of Time and Newsweek so tall and proud with all his lies in 1973.

Nope. Can't see Hunt there.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 17, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Ron Ecker]

Paul, the book Coup d'etat in America (that may be the subtitle, I can't find my copy) does a pretty good job of matching Hunt's and the tramp's faces, particularly with one blow-up of the tramp's face. There's a resemblance, which is more intriguing coupled with the fact that the tall tramp bears a resemblance to Hunt's friend Frank Sturgis with a wig. Hunt himself wore a wig, as I recall, in the Dita Beard business (whatever that was, I don't remember), and could have done something to his face in Dallas. There may be a reason why he's scrunching up his face in one photo (like he smells something), knowing he's being photographed. But I can only say there's a resemblance, I'm not saying it's Hunt.

I don't know about Hunt's height. I saw him once in Miami and don't remember him looking tall. He and a woman were putting something in the trunk of a car (something they had just bought, I assumed, it wasn't a body). It was unmistakably E. Howard Hunt. I guess I should have asked him for his autograph.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Ron Ecker

[Brian Schmidt]

I think if Hunt was captured in a photo that day, this is him:

That's pretty neat, Ron. Around what year was it? I would have loved to have met Hunt; I have always been fascinated by him. He's such a Forrest Gump-type figure in that period. I've corresponded with his son and have read many of his spy novels. They are actually quite good and definitely worth checking out. The satanic ones during the Watergate-era are especially interesting. I don't think I've ever read an author who made a character changing clothes, drinking coffee and champagne, and doing other daily tasks as entertaining as Hunt.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, the book Coup d'etat in America (that may be the subtitle, I can't find my copy) does a pretty good job of matching Hunt's and the tramp's faces, particularly with one blow-up of the tramp's face. There's a resemblance, which is more intriguing coupled with the fact that the tall tramp bears a resemblance to Hunt's friend Frank Sturgis with a wig. Hunt himself wore a wig, as I recall, in the Dita Beard business (whatever that was, I don't remember), and could have done something to his face in Dallas. There may be a reason why he's scrunching up his face in one photo (like he smells something), knowing he's being photographed. But I can only say there's a resemblance, I'm not saying it's Hunt.

I don't know about Hunt's height. I saw him once in Miami and don't remember him looking tall. He and a woman were putting something in the trunk of a car (something they had just bought, I assumed, it wasn't a body). It was unmistakably E. Howard Hunt. I guess I should have asked him for his autograph.

Yes, that's the title I remember, too.

As for the Frank Sturgis look-alike, I never accepted that, either. It doesn't match Frank Sturgis at all, IMHO.

Also, the tramp that's supposed to look like Frank Sturgis is quite tall, while Frank Sturgis was average height, going by a film of him with the team of Gerry Patrick Hemming, loading his pistol and standing next to a guy who looks 9 inches taller.

Nope -- those guys aren't Hunt or Sturgis. I don't see recognizable CIA figures among the three tramps -- however, I certainly DO BELIEVE PROUTY WHEN HE SAYS THAT IS EDWARD LANSDALE'S BACK. Even if Prouty was wrong about all his political opinions, an "identification" isn't a political opinion. Prouty is believable on this point, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 17, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Brian, appreciated and anything further you find would be great. I've spend a lot of time trying to fill in exactly what Hunt was doing in 62 and 63 and have my own ideas but actual data is slim. About all I can say is that Hunt was almost always a political action type and not operational in the sense of the field or paramilitary side of the agency....even in Guatemala. His early performance in MC is a good example of how he routinely alienated folks other than the ones he personally liked and things didn't get a whole lot better later on....on the other hand the man talked a heck of a game and played the novel type spy role to a T.