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Is De Mohrenschildt FBI confidential Informant T-2 that Agent Hosty refers to?

Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for identification No. 829
Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to.
Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"
Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?
Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.
Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?
Mr. HOSTY. That is right.
Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.
Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?
Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.
Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.
Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. STERN. In what connection?
Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.
Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?
Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.
Mr. STERN. And you found what?
Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.
Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report marked for identification No. 829, Mr. Hosty?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. STERN. In connection with your preparation for testimony today?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Is there any change you would like to make in anything set forth in it?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I wish it to stand as it reads.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?
Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT
Staff Report of the
Select Committee on Assassinations
U.S. House of Representatives
Ninety-fifth Congress Second Session
March 1979

38. According to State Department documents, George de Morenschildt and his wife were living in Haiti at the time of the assassination.(93) They arrived in the country on June 2, 1963.(94) De Mohrenschildt had earlier been in Haiti in March 1963 and returned to Dallas a week later.(95) He told State Department officials that he left Dallas April 19, 1963, traveled to New York and Philadelphia, and then returned to Dallas for "2 days" to make preparations for the final trip to Haiti.(96)

On April 14, 1963, George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, Jeanne, visited the Oswalds' apartment. As Oswald's wife, Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment, they discovered Oswald's rifle leaning against the wall inside a closet. Jeanne told George that Oswald had a rifle, and George joked to Oswald, "Were you the one who took a pot-shot at General Walker?" (General Edwin Walker was a conservative activist who George de Mohrenschildt said he "knew that Oswald disliked.")[44] When later asked by the Warren Commission about Oswald's reaction to his question, George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald "smiled at that."[45] In an interview with Edward Jay Epstein, De Mohrenschildt claimed to have been in touch with the CIA about Oswald’s attempted assassination of General Walker. "I spoke to the CIA both before and afterwards. It was what ruined me." [42] The Warren Commission concluded that on April 10, 1963, Oswald had attempted to kill General Walker.[46][47]

42 ^ Jump up to:a b c Epstein, Edward Jay. The Assassination Chronicles: Inquest, Counterplot, and Legend (New York: Carroll & Graf, 1992), p. 559. ISBN 978-0-88184-909-7

44 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, p. 249.

45 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, pp. 249-250.

46 Jump up^ "Warren Commission Report p. 184-195". Archives.gov. Retrieved 2009-02-27.

47 Jump up^ De Mohrenschildt's Activities in Haiti, House Select Committee on Assassinations - Appendix to Hearings, Volume 12, pp. 56-57.

Jim Root

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It's easy for me to believe DeM was some agency's informant. He got around a lot.

I don't believe he was an agent handler; that requires in-depth training over a minimum period of about four months. Such training is given only to carefully screened individuals who are going to use it full-time.

I also don't believe DeM saw any rifle owned by Marina's husband or that Marina's husband shot at Walker. DeM, IMO, was persuaded by the agency to which he informed to tell the rifle story. The idea Marina's husband shot at Walker and then buried his rifle in the ground is not supported by the facts. Marina's husband owned no cleaning kit for any weapon. The dirt and soil in the rifle from its having been buried could not be removed without a cleaning kit. Furthermore, any former military person who owned a rifle at that time would have had a cleaning kit for the rifle if the rifle was being used periodically. That's drilled into recruits in basic training.

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Mr. Tidd,

I think the term "buried in the ground" comes from Marina [or her translator].

I also think it's a result of a language barrier.

I believe that, IF Lee Oswald was involved in the Walker shooting, he may have told her that his rifle "had to go underground," or some similar term. And if the idiom "underground" in this context doesn't translate well to Russian, she might have interpreted that to mean "buried," even if her husband meant something completely different.

Just a theory of mine...

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Is De Mohrenschildt FBI confidential Informant T-2 that Agent Hosty refers to?

Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for identification No. 829

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to.

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"

Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report marked for identification No. 829, Mr. Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. STERN. In connection with your preparation for testimony today?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there any change you would like to make in anything set forth in it?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I wish it to stand as it reads.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

Staff Report of the

Select Committee on Assassinations

U.S. House of Representatives

Ninety-fifth Congress Second Session

March 1979

38. According to State Department documents, George de Morenschildt and his wife were living in Haiti at the time of the assassination.(93) They arrived in the country on June 2, 1963.(94) De Mohrenschildt had earlier been in Haiti in March 1963 and returned to Dallas a week later.(95) He told State Department officials that he left Dallas April 19, 1963, traveled to New York and Philadelphia, and then returned to Dallas for "2 days" to make preparations for the final trip to Haiti.(96)

On April 14, 1963, George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, Jeanne, visited the Oswalds' apartment. As Oswald's wife, Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment, they discovered Oswald's rifle leaning against the wall inside a closet. Jeanne told George that Oswald had a rifle, and George joked to Oswald, "Were you the one who took a pot-shot at General Walker?" (General Edwin Walker was a conservative activist who George de Mohrenschildt said he "knew that Oswald disliked.")[44] When later asked by the Warren Commission about Oswald's reaction to his question, George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald "smiled at that."[45] In an interview with Edward Jay Epstein, De Mohrenschildt claimed to have been in touch with the CIA about Oswald’s attempted assassination of General Walker. "I spoke to the CIA both before and afterwards. It was what ruined me." [42] The Warren Commission concluded that on April 10, 1963, Oswald had attempted to kill General Walker.[46][47]

42 ^ Jump up to:a b c Epstein, Edward Jay. The Assassination Chronicles: Inquest, Counterplot, and Legend (New York: Carroll & Graf, 1992), p. 559. ISBN 978-0-88184-909-7

44 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, p. 249.

45 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, pp. 249-250.

46 Jump up^ "Warren Commission Report p. 184-195". Archives.gov. Retrieved 2009-02-27.

47 Jump up^ De Mohrenschildt's Activities in Haiti, House Select Committee on Assassinations - Appendix to Hearings, Volume 12, pp. 56-57.

Jim Root

Just wondering out loud here -- Is it logical that DeMorenschildt would have contacted the CIA about Oswald's alleged assassination attempt against General Walker? Why wouldn't he have contacted the FBI, instead? Or did he?

Another question: Why didn't Dallas FBI confidential informant T-2 contact the Dallas FBI office about Oswald's alleged April, 1963, leafleting activities in Dallas? Why did he or she contact the New York office about it, instead?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I'm not sure why, but I seem to recall that this info came from an FBI mail cover of the FPCC in New York City, that T-2 simply obscured the fact that it was a mail opening program. But perhaps I misremember.

Stephen

Thank you for your input!

The timing of that seems early and Hosty suggest NO FPCC activity in the Dallas area.....I have seen a report that T-2 referred to Edwin Walker but GP Hemming suggested that a T-2 could be used repeatedly to identify several different people.

Jim Root

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It's easy for me to believe DeM was some agency's informant. He got around a lot.

I don't believe he was an agent handler; that requires in-depth training over a minimum period of about four months. Such training is given only to carefully screened individuals who are going to use it full-time.

I also don't believe DeM saw any rifle owned by Marina's husband or that Marina's husband shot at Walker. DeM, IMO, was persuaded by the agency to which he informed to tell the rifle story. The idea Marina's husband shot at Walker and then buried his rifle in the ground is not supported by the facts. Marina's husband owned no cleaning kit for any weapon. The dirt and soil in the rifle from its having been buried could not be removed without a cleaning kit. Furthermore, any former military person who owned a rifle at that time would have had a cleaning kit for the rifle if the rifle was being used periodically. That's drilled into recruits in basic training.

Jon

I agree that De M was some sort of informant and would it would be easy to accept that he was not an "agent handler." What interests me most about him is both his close contact to Oswald and the contacts of his brother Demitri.

Demitri was involved with Whitney Shepardson in the starting up of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty. Priscilla Johnson once said that she went to the offices of Radio Free Europe on her way to Moscow where she arrived just in time to interview Oswald.

As for the rifle....Marina has stuck to her story about that and I accept it.

Thank you for your comments!

Jim Root

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Is De Mohrenschildt FBI confidential Informant T-2 that Agent Hosty refers to?

Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for identification No. 829

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to.

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"

Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report marked for identification No. 829, Mr. Hosty?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. STERN. In connection with your preparation for testimony today?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there any change you would like to make in anything set forth in it?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I wish it to stand as it reads.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir.

GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

Staff Report of the

Select Committee on Assassinations

U.S. House of Representatives

Ninety-fifth Congress Second Session

March 1979

38. According to State Department documents, George de Morenschildt and his wife were living in Haiti at the time of the assassination.(93) They arrived in the country on June 2, 1963.(94) De Mohrenschildt had earlier been in Haiti in March 1963 and returned to Dallas a week later.(95) He told State Department officials that he left Dallas April 19, 1963, traveled to New York and Philadelphia, and then returned to Dallas for "2 days" to make preparations for the final trip to Haiti.(96)

On April 14, 1963, George de Mohrenschildt and his wife, Jeanne, visited the Oswalds' apartment. As Oswald's wife, Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment, they discovered Oswald's rifle leaning against the wall inside a closet. Jeanne told George that Oswald had a rifle, and George joked to Oswald, "Were you the one who took a pot-shot at General Walker?" (General Edwin Walker was a conservative activist who George de Mohrenschildt said he "knew that Oswald disliked.")[44] When later asked by the Warren Commission about Oswald's reaction to his question, George de Mohrenschildt said that Oswald "smiled at that."[45] In an interview with Edward Jay Epstein, De Mohrenschildt claimed to have been in touch with the CIA about Oswald’s attempted assassination of General Walker. "I spoke to the CIA both before and afterwards. It was what ruined me." [42] The Warren Commission concluded that on April 10, 1963, Oswald had attempted to kill General Walker.[46][47]

42 ^ Jump up to:a b c Epstein, Edward Jay. The Assassination Chronicles: Inquest, Counterplot, and Legend (New York: Carroll & Graf, 1992), p. 559. ISBN 978-0-88184-909-7

44 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, p. 249.

45 Testimony of George de Mohrenschildt, Warren Commission Hearings, vol. 9, pp. 249-250.

46 Jump up^ "Warren Commission Report p. 184-195". Archives.gov. Retrieved 2009-02-27.

47 Jump up^ De Mohrenschildt's Activities in Haiti, House Select Committee on Assassinations - Appendix to Hearings, Volume 12, pp. 56-57.

Jim Root

Just wondering out loud here -- Is it logical that DeMorenschildt would have contacted the CIA about Oswald's alleged assassination attempt against General Walker? Why wouldn't he have contacted the FBI, instead? Or did he?

Another question: Why didn't Dallas FBI confidential informant T-2 contact the Dallas FBI office about Oswald's alleged April, 1963, leafleting activities in Dallas? Why did he or she contact the New York office about it, instead?

--Tommy :sun

Tommy

You hit on why my question has puzzled me over the years....."Dallas FBI confidential Informant T-2" could have contacted the Dallas FBI. What intrigues me here is that DeM was in New York at exactly that time and he suggests that he contacted an intelligence agency.

Here is the kicker: George's brother Demitri was closely associated with Whitney Shepardson who, during WWII and along with Grombach, began a spy organization know as SI (Secrete Intelligence). Richard Helms was near the top of SI as well and I have some great correspondence between "Dick" Helms and Whitney Spehardson dealing with, what one person involved in the correspondence suggested, was going to be some off the record intelligence operation conducted in Finland in the coming months. This correspondence was around July 1959.

Shepardson was instrumental in creating the CFR (From 1954 to 1970, John J. McCloy was chairman of the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations) and as I recall appointed McCloy to the Presidency of the World Bank.

Too many important "shirts" surround George DeM

Jim Root

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I've seen the T symbols many times in FBI documents, and specific numbers usually correlate with the administrative sheet, which gives the actual source in most instances. So there may be no fixed T-2.

I'm looking around (but haven't found it) for that specific case. I seem to remember that the FBI had opened the FPCC's mail in NYC, and copied the info from Oswald's letter but obscured both the fact that is was a highly-secret mail cover and the fact that it was NYC, not Dallas. (One could make a case that, if Oswald himself was the source, via letter, it WAS a Dallas informant!).

There are even a few hints: The info says that LHO was in touch with FPCC in NYC (ie, a letter) and the wording is very close to Oswald's letter where he says something like "I stood for the first time with a placare around my neck..." (I seem to recall him misspelling placard.)

Others: Am I wrong here? Is my memory failing me?

Here's an FBI doc mentioning LHO's letter:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84204&relPageId=21&search=placare

Here's the letter itself:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1137&search=VT_Lee#relPageId=531&tab=page

Edited by Stephen Roy
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Jim

A friend with a lot of expertise in FBI documents wrote to me.

1) Indeed, a T number is temporary, for that document only, and there may be many different T-2s in FBI documents.

2) He thinks the document you mention was not acquired in a mail cover, but by either a black bag job (burglary) or by a live agent in the NYC FPCC, either of which the FBI would be at pains to conceal and obscure.

3) Apparently Bill Simpich has written about this extensively. Try:

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Featured_State_Secret_Conclusion.html

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David G. Healy,

I read today Shenon's Politico piece. FWIW, I don't find what Shenon wrote to be "explosive." I find it to be an apologia for the CIA. McCone is a good scapegoat; he was never part of CIA's culture. Furthermore Shenon's writings on the JFK assassination are suspect, IMO.

I don't believe the CIA had a hand in the assassination, but I find there are reasons to believe it wants to keep hidden information possibly relevant to the assassination. Which in 2015 puzzles me. I ask, who is the CIA trying to protect? The answer is clearly not the CIA. Its releases, both vol¨ntary and involuntary, have done nothing to diminish suspicion over CIA's role in a coverup.

Shenon's writings are suspect, I believe, because he would have us believe the CIA is not materially at fault; that Oswald was materially at fault; and that RFK and Castro bear blame. This is all, every bit of it, baloney.

Shenon is a talented disinformation artist in my view. He succeeds in getting his words before the public because he is a respected journalist. A respected journalist today, in my view, is someone who feeds on government lies, repackages the lies, and spews them out in the MSM.

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As Oswald's wife, Marina was showing Jeanne around the apartment, they discovered Oswald's rifle leaning against the wall inside a closet.

Is it a signature of Russian emigre hospitality to open the closets to guests? The practice is unknown in the US unless one's mother drops in. It's not like the Oswalds had Kardashian-quantity clothes and possessions.

Edited by David Andrews
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Jim, I believe this "T-2" source referred to information taken from FBI informant Victor Thomas Vicente, who was was opening/ intercepting mail and allowing FBI access to FPCC material in New York office. He found Oswald's letter photographed it, and On April 21, 1963, Vicente -" advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Texas, was in contact with FPCC of New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the FPCC.....” ( Bill Simpich in "FPCC and the Cuban Revolution" article).

The" Dallas T-2" designation was puzzling for years until this revelation, since it seemed to indicate that the info was from a local source, when it was actually from an illegal mail intercept program in NY which they were trying to disguise.

Bill

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