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The Real Ruth and Michael Paine


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Trejo,

You're twisting words, again.

1 ) Only a couple of people were asked it they saw Oswald carrying a package near or inside the TSBD. "Emotional" Jack Dougherty was one of them.

2 ) Buell Frazier said the package Oswald was carrying was too short to have been the broken-down carbine.

3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery.

Please do try to get small details like these straight in the future.

You're getting just as bad as Mr. You-Know-Who.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Tommy, you're the one jumping to conclusions now, aren't you?

(1) Of those people who WERE asked if they saw LHO take a package into the TSBD, all said NO.

(2) Wesley Buell Frazier said that the long package could fit between Oswald's palm and armpit; but you neglect to mention that Wesley and his sister couldn't AGREE on how long the package was.

(2.1) You also neglect the book by Robert D. Morrow, "First Hand Knowledge" (1992) in which he claims to have designed and produced three versions of the JFK murder weapon -- a modified Manlicher-Carcano -- to fit inside a common tool box.

(3) You're actually leaving out what Wesley actually said. Let's look at his ACTUAL testimony in the Warren Commission, shall we?

---------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF W.B. FRAZIER TESTIMONY TO WC -------------

Mr. BALL - What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car?

...

Mr. FRAZIER - He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in. So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks. One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as, I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time walking up there.

---------- END EXTRACT OF W.B. FRAZIER TESTIMONY TO WC -------------

So, you were wrong on two main counts, Tommy.

(A) LHO didn't leave Wesley revving up his car to recharge his battery -- you made that up.

(B ) LHO did indeed walk way ahead of Wesley, up to 50 feet ahead he said, until Wesley didn't bother to catch up.

So, Tommy, if you want to check facts, remember that I like to check facts, too.

People who live in tin houses shouldn't throw can-openers.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

And you exaggerate (or under-exaggerate) everything.

E.g. "Bolted"

etc.

PS How many people were asked if they noticed Oswald with a package? Two or three? Four?

PPS It's fascinating that you left out the part about Frazier's (apparent) need to let his engine idle for several minutes to "charge up the battery" after having driven there all the way from Irving. On the freeway.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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And you exaggerate (or under-exaggerate) everything.

E.g. "Bolted"

etc.

PS How many people were asked if they noticed Oswald with a package? Two or three? Four?

PPS It's fascinating that you left out the part about Frazier's (apparent) need to let his engine idle for several minutes to "charge up the battery" after having driven there all the way from Irving. On the freeway.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Tommy, it's equally fascinating that you made up the part about LHO not waiting for Wesley while he was charging his battery.

You demand a literalism -- then you'll bloody well be held to the same standard.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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David G. Healy @ post #477:

I'd bet the 2017 disclosures will add to the sense of cover-up but provide nothing new on the assassination itself. Allowing the MSM to yawn once again.

Some people have no faith in the US Government.

IMHO, the MSM (main stream media) is in for a shock on Thursday 26 October 2017, because it's 50+ year campaign to smear LHO as the "Lone Nut" responsible for the murder of JFK will be shattered into a million pieces and scattered to the wind.

Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren told the American People that the Truth about the JFK murder had to be withheld from us, but is being preserved so that it can finally be revealed in 75 years from the date of the Warren Report, i.e. in 2039.

HOWEVER, the USSR fell in 1990, and so in 1992 President GHW Bush signed the JFK Records Act, which moved up the date from 2039 to 2017. Twenty-two years shaved off.

IMHO, the congruence of the Fall of the USSR and the signing of the JFK Records Act is no coincidence. The USSR had something to do with the worries that caused J. Edgar Hoover, LBJ, Earl Warren and Allen Dulles to agree to the ridiculous "Lone Nut" theory of LHO -- for reason of "National Security.".

What were those exact reasons? IMHO -- as the MSM will find out to its shock on Thursday 26 October 2017 -- the USSR would have had a propaganda COUP with the knowledge that the Radical Right in the USA boldly murdered JFK in the South, in Dallas, before the eyes of the world.

CIA, Schmee-IA. The actual culprits will turn out to be Guy Banister (as Jim Garrison discovered) and General Walker (as Jim Garrison failed to discover), and their Radical Right quislings, some of whom worked for the DPD.

Roscoe White will emerge as one. If Willie Somersett is correct, then J.D. Tippit will also be named. Jesse Curry, Sheriff Bill Decker, Captain Will Fritz and Mayor Earl Cabell are also among my likely suspects. Naturally the JBS members of Walker's group that met on the weekends there at Austin's Barbeque in Dallas may also be named.

It will be an MSM bombshell. Stay tuned to your local MSM station to see 100 red faces!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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And you exaggerate (or under-exaggerate) everything.

E.g. "Bolted"

etc.

PS How many people were asked if they noticed Oswald with a package? Two or three? Four?

PPS It's fascinating that you left out the part about Frazier's (apparent) need to let his engine idle for several minutes to "charge up the battery" after having driven there all the way from Irving. On the freeway.

God but I wish you and I were opposing attorneys on a criminal malpractice case. You or DiEugenio, for that matter.

--Tommy :sun

Well, Tommy, it's equally fascinating that you made up the part about LHO not waiting for Wesley while he was charging his battery.

You demand a literalism -- then you'll bloody well be held to the same standard.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Trejo,

I made up nothing.

But thanks for the post, because at least now you're admitting that Frazier didn't start walking towards the TSBD as soon as he'd parked his car, but "charged up his (improbably) weak battery for several minutes," instead.

God I wish you and I were opposing attorneys on a criminal malpractice case. You or DiEugenio, for that matter.

Speaking of your "bloody well" -- Well, Paul, to use an American colloquial expression, I'd rip you both a new one.

--Tommy :sun

PS No, I'm not a lawyer.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Trejo,

...

3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery.

--Tommy :sun

You didn't make anything up, Tommy? Then you can show WC testimony to back up your words above?

You CAN'T? Then, by the rules of logic, Tommy, you made something up.

You'd step all over your own feet if you were a lawyer, Tommy. Keep your day job.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Trejo,

...

3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery.

--Tommy :sun

You didn't make anything up, Tommy? Then you can show WC testimony to back up your words above?

You CAN'T? Then, by the rules of logic, Tommy, you made something up.

You'd step all over your own feet if you were a lawyer, Tommy. Keep your day job.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Trejo,

Did I actually say it was in his WC testimony?

Or did you infer that, Counselor?

1969 Testimony of Wesley Buell Frazier at the Clay Shaw Trial:

Q: What, if anything, did you do when you arrived at the Texas School Book Depository?

A: I parked the car, and as I was sitting there I looked at my watch and I had a few minutes about eight or ten minutes, so I sat there and was looking out over Stemmons Freeway, which you could see from the parking lot, and I said I would charge my battery for a few minutes, because I had been driving in tow and you could look at your gauge and see the battery was not charging. I said to him, " I will race the engine pretty fast and charge it up a little bit."

Q: What did Lee Harvey Oswald do when you were charging your battery?

A: He got out of the car, got the package and walked behind the picket fence there and stayed there like he was waiting on me.

Q: Did you catch up with him?

A: As soon as I cut the engine off and got out and closed the door he started walking off. I followed him but I didn't catch up with him because at that time of the morning --

Q: Tell me, how was Lee Harvey Oswald carrying this package you described as he was walking in front of you?

A: Parallel to his side, up and down. Like you stick it up under your armpit and the other part cupped in his hand.

Q: Did you determine whether it was in his armpit or were you close enough to see that?

A: No, sir, I was not close enough to see. I didn't pay attention to it particularly, but as he was walking along in front of me naturally I looked in his direction and that is what it appeared to be from what I saw.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Trejo,

...

3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery.

--Tommy :sun

You didn't make anything up, Tommy? Then you can show WC testimony to back up your words above?

You CAN'T? Then, by the rules of logic, Tommy, you made something up.

You'd step all over your own feet if you were a lawyer, Tommy. Keep your day job.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Trejo,

Did I actually say it was in his WC testimony?

Or did you infer that, Counselor?

--Tommy :sun

Oh? Then you say that Wesley Frazier gave a contradictory story to somebody else? Do you have a SOURCE?

Or did you just make it up?

Do tell!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Trejo,

...

3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery.

--Tommy :sun

You didn't make anything up, Tommy? Then you can show WC testimony to back up your words above?

You CAN'T? Then, by the rules of logic, Tommy, you made something up.

You'd step all over your own feet if you were a lawyer, Tommy. Keep your day job.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Trejo,

Did I actually say it was in his WC testimony?

Or did you infer that, Counselor?

Sworn Testimony of Wesley Buell Frazier at the Clay Shaw Trial:

Q: What, if anything, did you do when you arrived at the Texas School Book Depository?

A: I parked the car, and as I was sitting there I looked at my watch and I had a few minutes about eight or ten minutes, so I sat there and was looking out over Stemmons Freeway, which you could see from the parking lot, and I said I would charge my battery for a few minutes, because I had been driving in tow and you could look at your gauge and see the battery was not charging. I said to him, " I will race the engine pretty fast and charge it up a little bit."

Q: What did Lee Harvey Oswald do when you were charging your battery?

A: He got out of the car, got the package and walked behind the picket fence there and stayed there like he was waiting on me.

Q: Did you catch up with him?

A: As soon as I cut the engine off and got out and closed the door he started walking off. I followed him but I didn't catch up with him because at that time of the morning --

Q: Tell me, how was Lee Harvey Oswald carrying this package you described as he was walking in front of you?

A: Parallel to his side, up and down. Like you stick it up under your armpit and the other part cupped in his hand.

Q: Did you determine whether it was in his armpit or were you close enough to see that?

A: No, sir, I was not close enough to see. I didn't pay attention to it particularly, but as he was walking along in front of me naturally I looked in his direction and that is what it appeared to be from what I saw.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKfrazier.htm

--Tommy :sun

Edited and bumped for "Word Twister" Trejo because he evidently missed it.

It's interesting that Frazier says nothing here about Oswald's "bolting ahead of him" (as Trejo alleges) on the walk across the parking lot.

In fact, Frazier says that Oswald waited, a short distance away, for him to finish "charging his battery," and only then started walking, yes, ahead of Frazier, but (apparently) at a normal speed, towards the TSBD.

So where does "Word Twister" come up with this "bolting" bit?

Did he imagine it, or did he try to do a little bit of clever / devious ... word-twisting?

The whole world wants to know.

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Trejo,

Did I actually say it was in his WC testimony?

Or did you infer that, Counselor?

Sworn Testimony of Wesley Buell Frazier at the Clay Shaw Trial:

Q: What, if anything, did you do when you arrived at the Texas School Book Depository?

A: I parked the car, and as I was sitting there I looked at my watch and I had a few minutes about eight or ten minutes, so I sat there and was looking out over Stemmons Freeway, which you could see from the parking lot, and I said I would charge my battery for a few minutes, because I had been driving in tow and you could look at your gauge and see the battery was not charging. I said to him, " I will race the engine pretty fast and charge it up a little bit."

Q: What did Lee Harvey Oswald do when you were charging your battery?

A: He got out of the car, got the package and walked behind the picket fence there and stayed there like he was waiting on me.

Q: Did you catch up with him?

A: As soon as I cut the engine off and got out and closed the door he started walking off. I followed him but I didn't catch up with him because at that time of the morning --

Q: Tell me, how was Lee Harvey Oswald carrying this package you described as he was walking in front of you?

A: Parallel to his side, up and down. Like you stick it up under your armpit and the other part cupped in his hand.

Q: Did you determine whether it was in his armpit or were you close enough to see that?

A: No, sir, I was not close enough to see. I didn't pay attention to it particularly, but as he was walking along in front of me naturally I looked in his direction and that is what it appeared to be from what I saw.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKfrazier.htm

--Tommy :sun

Edited and bumped for "Word Twister" Trejo because he evidently missed it.

It's interesting that Frazier says nothing here about Oswald's "bolting ahead of him" (as Trejo alleges) on the walk across the parking lot.

In fact, Frazier says that Oswald waited, a short distance away, for him to finish "charging his battery," and only then started walking, yes, ahead of Frazier, but (apparently) at a normal speed, towards the TSBD.

So where does "Word Twister" come up with this "bolting" bit?

Did he imagine it, or did he try to do a little bit of clever / devious ... word-twisting?

The whole world wants to know.

OK, Tommy, you win this round.

Although, it would have helped if you had stated your SOURCE at the start.

So, for the record, I officially retract the word "bolt" in my description of how LHO got way ahead of Wesley Frazier in their walk from the parking lot to the TSBD building on the morning of 11/22/1963.

Your citation of Frazier's testimony to Jim Garrison's Grand Jury is valuable information, by the way, because it shows an interesting (if minor) inconsistency with Frazier's WC testimony.

I get a distinct impression from all his testimony, however, that Wesley Frazier was trying to disassociate himself from LHO, because he knew suspicious eyes would try to accuse him of being an ACCOMPLICE of LHO.

The big question of the day -- and a question drilled by the WC -- was this: how in the world could Wesley Buell Frazier NOT KNOW that there was a rifle in that package?

It is interesting that Frazier would continue to insist that he believed the package was 24 inches in length -- and he stuck to that.

However, his sister, Linnie Mae Randle, told the WC it was 27 inches, or perhaps 28 1/2 inches.

The drilling given to most WC witnesses who knew LHO, including Wesley, Linnie Mae, Ruth Paine, Michael Paine, George DeMohrenschildt and others, was HOW COULD YOU HAVE PREVENTED THIS TRAGEDY?

Of course they all claimed TOTAL IGNORANCE of what was happening.

Ruth Paine, for example, said she had NO IDEA that there was rifle at her place. She insists that she never saw a rifle among the Oswald's possessions, either when she moved them on April 24th from their Dallas residence to Irving, Texas, or when she moved them 17 days later from Irving to New Orleans on May 11th, or when she moved them from New Orleans to Irving on September 23rd.

NOBODY SAW THE RIFLE. This is what the WC had difficulty in accepting -- from Wesley Frazier and from Ruth and Michael Paine.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Edith Whitworth And Gertrude Hunter also did not see a rifle.

They claimed a short paper wrapped package, and the man said he needed a plunger.
I think the guy clogged his toilet but others claim that he saw an old gunsmith sign and Edith thought the guy wanted a gunsmith.


Here we can see that a customer had a broken tool, too short to be any MC rifle part, yet we get this exchange.

Mr. McKENZIE. So, the package that he had was 2 or 3 inches in diameter and approximately 18 inches long; is that right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen to 18 inches long.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say to you when he came into the store?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He asked me if I had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, I didn't have it. I don't remember it, you know, what he asked for.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked me if I had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what part was it?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know--because I don't know anything about guns.

Mr. McKENZIE. Can you state it in his words?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I cannot.

Mr. McKENZIE. You cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That's right.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask a question, if I may. Mrs. Whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a Miss Campbell or Mrs. Campbell?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't. Mrs. Hunter and I discussed it afterwards, and I think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but I'm not sure I might have told them that I thought it was a plunger, but I don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. And you did not tell the reporter what you thought 'it was; is that right?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't--I don't believe I ever made the statement that I knew exactly what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I believe Mrs. Hunter said that. She talked to the same reporter--I don't know what it was, because I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; because I didn't ask him.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. He came in because I had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I presume that because he asked for a gun part.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what part did he ask for?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, I just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, I don't know. I didn't pay that much attention to it because I had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you it was a part for a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I knew that it was at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that it was?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. That it was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; he didn't tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention guns?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it--when I told him I didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when I told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more.

Mr. McKENZIE. To the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with Mrs. Hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, to the best of my recollection it was, but I wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. He didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, he asked in such a way that I knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the word "gun" ever used?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes; it was, because I told him the gunsmith had moved.

Mr. McKENZIE. And what did he say then, please, ma'am?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He turned around and he looked at me.

... :huh:
I'm sure he did!

So I guy whom came in with a broken, dirty, toilet plunger handle wrapped in paper and is now Oswald wanting gunsmiths.
You can't write this stuff, it's incredible, it is worse than Bledsoe on the bus.

Guy never says gun, never wants any directions to the new gunsmith, etc.
Edith say she thinks she told him sports shop on Irving.
Hunter is so sure it was a gun part she claims he came in saying he wanted gunsmiths, but this was due to her hearing plunger.
So she is sure about the wrong things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it Was back down east on Irving Boulevard.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?
Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?
Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.

She must have been hard of smell too.

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Why would anybody go to either a gun store or a furniture store for a "plunger", surely a plumbers merchants or home store, and why would they take the old one with them?

If his toilet was blocked he would just have bought a new plunger, not tried to repair it. Who in God's name repairs a toilet plunger?

Something smells and it isn't the plunger.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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You guys who follow the nonsense of John Armstrong are always taking MISTAKEN IDENTITY and FALSE SIGHTING cases seriously.

Marina Oswald denies ever being in their Furniture Store. We should note that the FBI and the WC gave plenty of lee-way to MISTAKEN IDENTITY cases, not only because they wasted time, but because they added to the mystique of the Lone Nut mythology they were forging.

Here's what Marina Oswald said:

Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.

The testimony goes on and on like this, as Mr. LIEBELER tries to convince Marina that she really was in a furniture store, and that she really did speak with Mrs. Whitworth. Marina consistently said she never saw this woman before in her life.

Mrs. Whitworth continued to insist. She said Marina wore a pony tail. Marina said she didn't wear pony tails. It just went on and on.

That settles it for me. Mrs. Whitworth was one dizzy broad.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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Mrs. Whitworth continued to insist. She said Marina wore a pony tail. Marina said she didn't wear pony tails. It just went on and on.

That settles it for me. Mrs. Whitworth was one dizzy broad.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Marina_zpsnjugwiu0.jpg

Marina%202_zpshn4uqwbt.jpg

Oops.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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So, you're saying that's a "pony tail",. Ray? I call it I a "bun".

Pony tails are worn high on head. Of course, I have daughters who correct me on such matters.

Besides which, before I'm obliged to parse Mrs. WHITWORTH's dizzy testimony, will somebody please explain to me what possible reason Marina Oswald would have to LIE ABOUT NOT GOING TO A FURNITURE STORE?

What in the WORLD does that have to do with the JFK murder? Anybody??

ANYWAY: Here's some more of that USELESS so-called WC testimony:

-------- BEGIN EXTRACT -- WC Testimony of Edith Whitworth, Gertrude Hunter and Marina Oswald (7/24/1964) -----

Mrs. WHITWORTH. ...She may not remember it, but if I was to see her today and seeing her that day and I was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me to identify her. You know, she still has the features, but her face was round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating].

Mr. GREGORY. You mean in a pony tail?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. In a pony tail.

**Mrs. OSWALD. No; it wasn't that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, there was something tied around it--you had something tied around it, I mean, slicked back from her face.

**Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't wear this.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back to the back.

**Mrs. OSWALD. I had two pigtails.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she might have it was tied back and whipped back from her face. Her face was round then and she was pretty then--I'd say she was pretty.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. The little girl -- I tried to talk to her and attract her attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they left the store.

**Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time I was in the store? I do not remember that I was ever in a furniture store. That does not make a difference for me. I recall the time when I was in a store with Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mr. GREGORY. Which store was it?

**Mrs. OSWALD. In that store they were selling baby things and towels and I was looking for something for a child.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. No; I didn't sell anything like that--mine was all furniture.

**Mrs. OSWALD. There was just one store like that.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. But we went to the extreme back of the store and, as well as I remember, I had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, you know, I was showing you.

**Mrs. OSWALD. I was never in any furniture store.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you know, she walked off.

**Mrs. OSWALD. You know, not because I want to say you are wrong, but I can't remember I was in a furniture store, especially when I [was supposed to have] talked with somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Marina, you said you do remember one time that you were in a store with Mrs. Paine and with Lee and with the children. Do you remember how long you were in the store that time?

**Mrs. OSWALD. About 30 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long, Mrs. Whitworth, was she in the store this time that you are talking about?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I would say from 30 to 40 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Marina seeing any furniture in the store at that time?

**Mrs. OSWALD. No; this was a cafe on that side on the left side and baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you went to that store for?

**Mrs. OSWALD. To buy Junie pants--rubber pants.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you buy some clothes for June; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, Marina?

**Mrs. OSWALD. Just this one [indicating Mrs. Hunter]. Perhaps, now, I saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in Richardson--I may have seen a lady like this in Richardson.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember seeing a woman that looked something like Mrs. Hunter, here, Mrs. Hunter being the woman in the blue dress?

**Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think that I saw her, but I saw a woman or women like her--not one, but many of that type.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mrs. Hunter, as you sit here and you look at these children and you look at Marina, are you sure in your own mind that these were the people who were in the store that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. I have seen Marina several times before the baby came--several times. She said she saw me do you remember talking to a lady about getting help for you before your baby came?

**Mrs. OSWALD. For housework?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the baby before the baby came, but I don't know who she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, wait just a minute, Mrs. Hunter, you say you talked to Marina about this?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was with another woman and this other woman didn't come around, and I couldn't understand too much of what she said, and she couldn't understand too much of what I said, and I says, "If you need help with this baby, we can get you help at Parkland Hospital." Do you remember that?

. . .
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did all this happen?

Mrs. HUNTER. Let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at the station--I don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a car that this man had for sale at the station or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you think this happened, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was on the corner of Sixth and Hastings Streets---I know where the station was--I couldn't even tell you the name of the station, because we were looking at a car there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what were the circumstances under which you were in this station, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. This was before I would say it was in September or October. It was before just a little while, I know, before your baby came, because I won't tell you the remark I made, but anyhow, I know it was pretty close-almost due time you could tell from the way you were carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby.

**Mrs. OSWALD. I can't remember her [indicating Mrs. Whitworth].

Mr. LIEBELER. Didn't you see this other woman at all, Mrs. Hunter?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; she got out and had her back to me and if I'm not badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because I wasn't even interested. The only thing I seen that she was very uncomfortable and what I thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when the baby comes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Excuse me, but I would like to ask her a question; may I?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Hunter, what is your full name, please?

Mrs. HUNTER. Gertrude Hunter.

Mr. McKENZIE. What is your husband's name?

Mrs. HUNTER. John T. Hunter.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you work with Mrs. Whitworth there in the store?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; just visiting her.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were not in the store on this particular occasion that Mrs. Whitworth has described; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were there?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And What were you doing in the store that morning or that day?

Mrs. HUNTER. We go to football games together and we were down discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan cars or charter a bus, and it was after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, because I never did leave the house only after 2. My daughter works at Commercial Title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch hour at 2 o'clock.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, this was after 2 o'clock and prior to the football weekend; is that correct?

Mrs. HUNTER. On Wednesday or Thursday--I won't say just which day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, On that occasion when you were in the store with Mrs. Whitworth at the Furniture Mart, did Mrs. Oswald or her husband buy any clothes or anything of the sort?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, she went to talking about the cafe. It used to be a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. The only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. Now, she might have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store.

**Mrs. OSWALD. No.

-------- END EXTRACT -- WC Testimony of Edith Whitworth, Gertrude Hunter and Marina Oswald (7/24/1964) ---------

It seems to me that these two older women, friends, had convinced each other that this man and his foreign wife, and to babies in their store was the Oswald family. The only thing that had to report to the WC was that the Oswalds had come into their store once. That's IMPORTANT? But they encourage each other in their fantasy.

What's odd is that the WC attorneys also encourage them in their fantasy.

Marina can't remember either of them, no matter what they say. Looks like the WC wasting as much time as possible. Their minds were made up from the start.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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