Witnesses to LHO' posession of the MC rifle

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Mr. Jenner seemed intent on making a "scope-sandwich". You can't really have a a scope without a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw? 

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action but I would not know. Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure. 

Mrs. DM's father was a gun collector, and her husband had a rifle on one of their trips. And yet she was "of course" surprised to see a rifle in the closet?

I would think that a person living in Texas would have been used to seeing firearms. Or at least would have known that the residents there hunt for big game.

[James DiEugenio]

PT:

  My basis for this was an FBI report and the FBI had its own translators.

They said that Marina told them that the rifle was not recovered until the 14th.

Now, if you want to argue with that source fine.  Let us hear you impeach Marina.  Because without Marina, you have no case.

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

PT:

  My basis for this was an FBI report and the FBI had its own translators.

They said that Marina told them that the rifle was not recovered until the 14th.

Now, if you want to argue with that source fine.  Let us hear you impeach Marina.  Because without Marina, you have no case.

James,

You claim that you have an FBI report that claims that Marina Oswald claimed something.

OK, let's see the FBI report, then.  Maybe you're misinterpreting it.

I always accept the sworn testimony of Marina Oswald -- she told the truth as she knew it in 1964.

Now -- what the FBI claims that Marina claims -- that may be mistaken.

So, let's see that FBI report, James.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

What strikes me is that, when she testified to the WC, Marina is unclear about when Oswald "un-buried" the rifle and brought it home. She is unclear about it being Saturday or Sunday. That makes no sense to me. If the De Mohrenschilds visited, with a bunny for the baby, on the night before Easter, that being the last time she would see them, and that being the night that Mrs De M. saw the gun, Marina would be clear about that being the Saturday.

Jim D's assertion about the conflicting FBI testimony makes sense in light of the WC testimony. I suspect that she is aware of the conflicting statements and this is how she dealt with it, i.e. Being mush-mouthed about it.

Marina testifies on 2-2-64 that, a couple days after the Walker shooting, George DeM. Walked in the door and the first thing he said was "Lee, how did you miss?" (General Walker).

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Mrs. OSWALD. .....By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

-----------------

This is the only mention, in Marina'a lengthy Feb. 2nd testimony, of the De M's post Walker assassination-attempt visit. In her July testimony, this visit is not mentioned at all.

 

I am still digging to be sure I am correct about this, looking over both the Feb. 2nd and July 24th testimony of Marina.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

A post concerning, and isolating, George De Mohrenschildt's pot-shot on Walker comment. I am seeing 3 accounts on that comment. The first is Marina's Feb 3rd testimony. The second is George De M's 4-22-64 testimony. The 3rd is Jeanne De M's 4-23-64

 

Mr De Mohrenschildt: He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" 

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MOHRENSCHILDT.: Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"

The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.

---------------------

On April 23, 1964 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt recalls the pot-shot comment:

JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" 

----------------------

It seems, Marina claims that G. De M. Made the comment about the pot-shot as soon as he walked in the door. 

In testimony months later, George, himself, makes note that he could not have made that comment if he did not know that Lee had a rifle.

And so, Mrs De M. Steps-up with the story about Marina showing her the closet and gun, then telling George about it while in the living room. This sets the stage for the comment having been made in the context of him knowing that Lee had a rifle.

Marina does not testify, nor is she asked, if she had shown Jeanne De M. the gun in the closet. 

----------------------------

It looks to me like Marina's "by the way" comment was a pre-planned comment that was awkwardly inserted. It also looks to me that it created a problem that needed to be later amended by testimony from the De M's.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note. He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

A post concerning, and isolating, George De Mohrenschildt's pot-shot on Walker comment. I am seeing 3 accounts on that comment. The first is Marina's Feb 3rd testimony. The second is George De M's 4-22-64 testimony. Them3rd is Jeanne De M's 4-23-64

 

Mr De Mohrenschildt: He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" 

---------------------

MOHRENSCHILDT.: Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"

The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.

---------------------

On April 23, 1964 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt recalls the pot-shot comment:

 

These testimonies are mind blowing in their revelations, implications, contradictions and illogicality.

Marina simply demands Lee promises never do this again? Even her threat to go to the police if he ever did this again sounds ridiculous in the context of normal reactions to such murderous, family destroying, Marina herself being implicated behavior.   

Even a woman raised in a KGB Colonel's home in politically paranoid cold war era Russia ( especially so young and with a baby ) should have been terrified of the possible consequences of her husband actually shooting to kill such a famous political figure as General Walker.

And to be filled with the most serious questions  about why her husband was doing such life and death and family destroying risky things.

Did Marina ever wonder where Lee was getting his motivations for carrying these actions out? Was he simply crazy with anger and revenge or obsessed with proving to others that he was a man of great world injustice changing destiny who should be recognized more than simply a school book box filler who was highly thought of by one Wesley Frazier?

JENNER. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor--Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" 

----------------------

It seems, Marina claims that G. De M. Made the comment about the pot-shot as soon as he walked in the door. 

In testimony months later, George, himself, makes note that he could not have made that comment if he did not know that Lee had a rifle.

And so, Mrs De M. Steps-up with the story about Marina showing her the closet and gun, then telling George about it while in the living room. This sets the stage for the comment having been made in the context of him knowing that Lee had a rifle.

Marina does not testify, nor is she asked, if she had shown Jeanne De M. the gun in the closet. 

----------------------------

It looks to me like Marina's "by the way" comment was a pre-planned comment that was awkwardly inserted. It also looks to me that it created a problem that needed to be later amended by testimony from the De M's.

Mrs. OSWALD. He said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. He was very sorry that he had not hit him.
I asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. I said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. I told him that I would save the note and that if something like that
should be repeated again, I would go to the police and I would have the proof in the form of that note. He said he would not repeat anything like that again.
By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
I looked at Lee. I thought that he had told De Mohrenschildt about it. And Lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that I had told De Mohrenschildt about it. It was kind of dark. But I noticed---it was in the evening, but I noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless.
You see, other people knew my husband better than I did. Not always--but in this case.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

What strikes me is that, when she testified to the WC, Marina is unclear about when Oswald "un-buried" the rifle and brought it home. She is unclear about it being Saturday or Sunday. That makes no sense to me. If the De Mohrenschilds visited, with a bunny for the baby, on the night before Easter, that being the last time she would see them, and that being the night that Mrs De M. saw the gun, Marina would be clear about that being the Saturday.

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Mrs. OSWALD. .....By the way, several days after that, the De Mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

----------------- 

Michael,

Marina Oswald was called back TWICE to testify about this.  George and Jeanne DM had testified that George made his joke when he was inside the apartment.  Marina's first testimony said that George made his joke before he walked in the door.

The WC attorneys really thought they found a contradiction here.   Also, Marina Oswald's original wording made it sound like George DM was part of the General Walker plot.  So, the WC attorneys really dug in here.

The result was that Marina Oswald recanted her original testimony.   She later emphasized, several times, that George said it as a joke -- and that he simply guessed the truth because he was a very astute and well-educated man.

Now -- I myself personally believe that George De Mohrenschildt was certainly part of the plot to assassinate General Walker.  In 1977, George De Mohrenschildt published the last essay of his life, namely, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy!, in which he admits that he filled LHO's mind with hatred regarding General Walker.

So -- which story is closer to the truth -- Marina's original story, or George and Jeanne's modified story?   I ask because George and Jeanne make it sound like they just chanced upon LHO's rifle, and just made a light joke about it.  BUT THE TRUTH IS THAT THEY NEVER SAW THE OSWALDS AGAIN IN THEIR LIVES.

They were really freaked out about the rifle -- because they knew instinctively what happened -- and they knew they were partly to blame for it.

Marina Oswald was pushed by the Secret Service, the FBI, the "Lone Nut" dogma, and by George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.

The USA was reactively looking for accomplices in the death of JFK.   Was it Wesley Frazier, who transported the murder weapon?   Was it Ruth Paine, who kept the murder weapon in her garage?  Was it George De Mohrenschildt, the rich Ex-Russian?   Lots of grist for melodramatic fiction -- but only the truth will set us free.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

[Michael Clark]

19 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Marina Oswald was called back TWICE to testify about this.  George and Jeanne DM had testified that George made his joke when he was inside the apartment.  Marina's first testimony said that George made his joke before he walked in the door.

-------------------------

Lots of grist for melodramatic fiction -- but only the truth will set us free.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul, we largely agree. And we do agree on what was said, and when.

To me, however, Marina's initial testimony was too concise to be in error, and can't be misunderstood. It was said with such awkward placement, however, that I believe that she was made to say it.

George and Jeanne's testimony was, however, in response to a problem that Marina's scripted testimony created. Their testimony served two purposes. First, it absolved George of prior knowledge of LHO's ownership of the rifle. Second, it is corroboration of the otherwise very thin evidence that Lee did own a rifle at all.

Cheers,

Mike

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

16 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul, we largely agree. And we do agree on what was said, and when.

To me, however, Marina's initial testimony was too concise to be in error, and can't be misunderstood. It was said with such awkward placement, however, that I believe that she was made to say it.

George and Jeanne's testimony was, however, in response to a problem that Marina's scripted testimony created. Their testimony served two purposes. First, it absolved George of prior knowledge of LHO's ownership of the rifle. Second, it is corroboration of the otherwise very thin evidence that Lee did own a rifle at all.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

I know that pressure was exerted on Marina Oswald to modify her story -- but it wasn't for some CIA plot.   Rather, it was the FBI who pressed her, along with the Secret Service and the WC attorneys -- and it was always to keep her in line with the Lone Nut theory of the JFK murder.

As for herself,  Marina Oswald had no freaking clue how JFK was assassinated.  It sure didn't involve LHO, she said -- or, if it did, he certainly wasn't alone.

That's also what Robert Oswald testified.  That's also what Marguerite Oswald testified.  That's also what Ruth Paine testified.  That's also what Michael Paine testified.  That's also what George De Mohrenschildt testified.  That's also what Jeanne De Morhrenschildt testified.

But the FBI and the WC attorneys kept them all in line -- "You can't be sure of that, can you?"   Of course they couldn't be sure -- because if they were sure, then they had more inside knowledge than Lee Harvey Oswald himself.

So, they all backed off.  They all caved in to the Lone Nut theory hatched by J. Edgar Hoover and approved by LBJ and the WC.  Even the Secret Service caved in (and they were originally Grassy Knoll believers).  It had become State Dogma.

But it will all come crumbling down on Thursday 26 October 2017, when the JFK Record Act comes to maturity.

As for LHO owning a rifle -- I spoke at length with Ron Lewis, who knew Oswald in New Orleans during the summer of 1963.   Oswald had his own rifle, all right.  What Oswald didn't know was that his paramilitary mercenary friends in New Orleans would sell him out.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 14, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Hang on a second everyone...  

We can't talk about Oswald with a rifle without SOME PROOF it was ever

ordered-shipped-rec'd-post card notified-Ozzie down to the Dallas PO to pick up the postcard-present card to USPS staff for retrieval-complete any required documentation-WALK OUT THE USPS WITH A 5' RIFLE CARTON-get to work then to Neely from the Dallas Post Office on a weekday at the end of March-get the rifle out of the box-dispose of box-get from Neely to New Orleans on April 24, 1963 with a 41" Carcano, no ammo, no clip, no cleaning supplies (or did he leave it at Neely for Ruth and Marina to pick it up for him since Ruth had dropped them at the bus station and asked that Marina come stay with her*? - obviously not since there is no discussion of a rifle being loaded that day - her testimony, furthermore, is false in that Oswald had purchased tickets for he and Marina and had to return one ticket)

So as you can see, for there to be a rifle in the closet at 214 Neely one has to make HUGE assumptions as to what happens to this rifle on each leg of the Oswald's journey.

Once we leave Neely and TX on April 24th the famous New Orleans summer of Oswald and JVB begins within 2 weeks. (note, James Wilcott says the "Oswald project" begins in April 1963 under direction of the Soviet Branch of the CIA

Oswald goes to live with Lillian Murret, the Lee Oswald's mother's sister.

 

A simple question.   the FBI had been watching the Oswalds.  Postal Inspectors had been keeping the FBI informed about the type of mail Harvey was receiving.

Can anyone tell me how the entire FBI and resources fails to record the ordering, shipping, delivery, pick-up, ownership and use of this rifle until Nov 22, 1963?

Here is an FBI report dated March 25, 1963.  And he was supposed to have picked up the rifle on March 27/28 or 29th.  He had just ordered it and KLEINS was working with the FBI and was being investigated by the Dodd committee.

Is it at all believable that the FBI and US Postal Inspectors had no idea until 11/22 that Lee Harvey Oswald had ordered not only a rifle but a hand gun as well!  
All we need do is ask REA for the paperwork related to his picking up the pistol...  oh, sorry, there isn't any.  Here's yet another report - Hosty - on 9/10/63.

Point is the FBI, INS and a few other acronyms were watching Oswald and reporting his activities.  You'd think the purchase of a rifle and pistol would at least be noted somewhere... as his portrait of a wife-beater is created...

 

* Mrs. PAINE - No; the bus left in the evening We all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening. 
Mr. JENNER - I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were contemplating going to New Orleans together that day? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Am I wrong? 
Mrs. PAINE - That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment. 
Mr. JENNER - I see. 
Mrs. PAINE - And wait to hear from him. 
Mr. JENNER - Yes

The following day (Wednesday, April 24) Ruth Paine drove to the Oswald's
apartment in Oak Cliff (south Dallas). Oswald asked Ruth to drive him and his wife to
the bus station and sa:id that he was going to New Orleans to look for work. Mrs. Paine
recalled that he took two green duffel bags, a portable Russian-made radio, and some
suitcases to the bus station.148 When they arrived at the bus station Oswald purchased
tickets to New Orleans for himself and Marina. But after Ruth invited Marina to stay
with her in Irving while her husband looked for a job in New Orleans, Oswald got a refund
on her ticket.

[Michael Clark]

Thank very much David!

[Paul Trejo]

On 2/14/2017 at 5:59 PM, David Josephs said:

Hang on a second everyone...  

We can't talk about Oswald with a rifle without SOME PROOF it was ever ordered-shipped-rec'd-post card notified-Ozzie down to the Dallas PO to pick up the postcard-present card to USPS staff for retrieval-complete any required documentation-WALK OUT THE USPS WITH A 5' RIFLE CARTON-get to work then to Neely from the Dallas Post Office on a weekday at the end of March-get the rifle out of the box-dispose of box-get from Neely to New Orleans on April 24, 1963 with a 41" Carcano, no ammo, no clip, no cleaning supplies (or did he leave it at Neely for Ruth and Marina to pick it up for him since Ruth had dropped them at the bus station and asked that Marina come stay with her*? - obviously not since there is no discussion of a rifle being loaded that day - her testimony, furthermore, is false in that Oswald had purchased tickets for he and Marina and had to return one ticket)

So as you can see, for there to be a rifle in the closet at 214 Neely one has to make HUGE assumptions as to what happens to this rifle on each leg of the Oswald's journey.

Once we leave Neely and TX on April 24th the famous New Orleans summer of Oswald and JVB begins within 2 weeks. (note, James Wilcott says the "Oswald project" begins in April 1963 under direction of the Soviet Branch of the CIA

Oswald goes to live with Lillian Murret, the Lee Oswald's mother's sister.

A simple question.   the FBI had been watching the Oswalds.  Postal Inspectors had been keeping the FBI informed about the type of mail Harvey was receiving.

Can anyone tell me how the entire FBI and resources fails to record the ordering, shipping, delivery, pick-up, ownership and use of this rifle until Nov 22, 1963?

Here is an FBI report dated March 25, 1963.  And he was supposed to have picked up the rifle on March 27/28 or 29th.  He had just ordered it and KLEINS was working with the FBI and was being investigated by the Dodd committee.

Is it at all believable that the FBI and US Postal Inspectors had no idea until 11/22 that Lee Harvey Oswald had ordered not only a rifle but a hand gun as well!  
All we need do is ask REA for the paperwork related to his picking up the pistol...  oh, sorry, there isn't any.  Here's yet another report - Hosty - on 9/10/63.

Point is the FBI, INS and a few other acronyms were watching Oswald and reporting his activities.  You'd think the purchase of a rifle and pistol would at least be noted somewhere... as his portrait of a wife-beater is created...

The following day (Wednesday, April 24) Ruth Paine drove to the Oswald's apartment in Oak Cliff (south Dallas). Oswald asked Ruth to drive him and his wife to the bus station and sa:id that he was going to New Orleans to look for work. Mrs. Paine recalled that he took two green duffel bags, a portable Russian-made radio, and some suitcases to the bus station.148 When they arrived at the bus station Oswald purchased tickets to New Orleans for himself and Marina. But after Ruth invited Marina to stay with her in Irving while her husband looked for a job in New Orleans, Oswald got a refund on her ticket.

David,

You are misinterpreting the data.  By the numbers:

(1) Oswald ordered his rifle and pistol under an assumed name (Alek J. Hidell).

(2) Ammunition in 1963 was readily available at Army Surplus stores in every major city.  Cheap.

(3) Marina saw the rifle, but Ruth Paine never saw the rifle, nor even guessed that it existed.

(4) On the premise that LHO took his rifle to New Orleans with him, disassembled in one of his two army duffle bags, we only need to suppose that: (4.1) LHO did not let anybody else touch his duffle bags; and (4.2) Marina was so ashamed that LHO even bought weapons with his paltry income, that she never told anybody about them.

(5) Once LHO got to New Orleans, and asked his uncle Dutz to pick him up from the bus station, his uncle Dutz let LHO haul his own duffle bags and luggage.  This is what Dutz testified to the WC.  Again, LHO never let anybody else touch his duffle bags.

(6) There is nothing false about Ruth Paine's testimony that LHO bought two bus tickets -- one for himself and one for Marina -- and then returning one ticket.  Why would you think so? 

(7) LHO did not let Marina have any money for anything.  Being a male-chauvanist control freak, if he ever gave Marina a single dollar for snacks it was a big event.  LHO bought two tickets -- one for himself to leave that day, and then one for Marina to take the bus some weeks later, after he would sent her a snail mail letter telling her that he had a job and a place to stay (because LHO could not afford a telephone at his Neeley Street address, or anyplace he stayed).

(8) Ruth Paine felt sorry for Marina, because Marina was pregnant.  That's why Ruth offered: (8.1) to let Marina and Junie stay at her house with her own two children; (8.2) let LHO call Marina on her telephone; and (8.3) drive Marina to New Orleans herself.

(9) Because of the generosity of Ruth Paine, LHO then took Marina's bus ticket and cashed it in, and gave Marina part of the refund money while she waited for LHO to call.

(10) So, you see, LHO had his rifle with him at all times during his trip to New Orleans starting April 24th.

(11) The "Soviet Branch of the CIA"?  What nonsense.

(12) According to FBI agent James Hosty, he asked to re-open the FBI case file on LHO in March 1963, after LHO took out a subscription for The Worker newspaper from New York City.  This was dumb, according to FBI HQ, because countless people took out such subscriptions, and the FBI was not about to track them all.

(13) It wasn't until LHO personally requested for the FBI to make a report of his FPCC-related arrest in New Orleans that the FBI finally re-opened the Oswald file.

(14) So, the FBI was not tracking LHO's every little move and piece of mail in March 1963. 

(15) James Hosty had the right to randomly select Soviet citizens in the USA in his area, and he selected Marina Oswald.  He went to go visit the Oswald's at their Elsbeth address, and they were not there.  The landlord kicked them out because they were fighting all the time, making a racket and breaking glass.  The Oswald's never talked to their neighbors -- and Marina could not speak English anyway.  The neighbors only assumed LHO was drinking -- since that is the normal scene where there is continual fighting in a home.  There is no plot there.

(16) It wasn't LHO that James Hosty went to visit in March, 1963, but Marina.  A package delivered to Alek J. Hidell did not hit the FBI radar until after the JFK assassination.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 16, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

On 2/14/2017 at 4:25 PM, Michael Clark said:

Thank very much David!

My pleasure Michael.

Before any of the conclusion questions can be addressed...  please ask which evidence brings us to this conclusion and whether it can stand up to the light of day.

Last one, I promise....  On Sept 24 '63 Ruth leaves with Marina and kids from the Magazine address in New Orleans.  The car had been loaded and Ozzie is seen with 2 small pieces of luggage leaving the Magazine address.  He supposedly goes to Mexico.   The next we know of the Carcano rifle, it is supposedly in the Paine garage wrapped in a blanket with a piece of string

Mr. JENNER - Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - You didn't see any kind of weapon? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? 
Mrs. PAINE - No; I saw nothing of that nature. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you drive them to your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. 
Mr. JENNER - Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; immediately. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see that being done, were you present? 
Mrs. PAINE - I helped do it; yes. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you see any weapon on that occasion? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Whether a rifle, pistol or-- 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
Mr. JENNER - Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? 
Mrs. PAINE - No. 
==========

Representative BOGGS - Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home? 
Mrs. PAINE - In the garage, no. 
Representative BOGGS - In the garage, you never saw one? 
Mrs. PAINE - I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the 22d of November. 

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that? 
Mr. PAINE - I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also. 
Mr. LIEBELER - You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage? 
Mr. PAINE - That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.
====
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package? 
Mr. PAINE - That did not occur to me. 

======
Mr. LIEBELER - I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before? 
Mr. PAINE - Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us. 

 

and the cherry on top....  Fritz claims the 12:35 Sat interrogation of Oswald where he asks about the LIFE BYP happened at 6pm.  Except, the night before, we have Michael commenting on the location of the Back Yard Photos, almost 18 hours before they are found:  

I did a fairly in-depth look at the BYPs and the related cameras https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsBYP.pdf which starts:

The story of “The Rifle” seems to always lead back to the Backyard photos discovered on Nov 23rd
by the team of DPD GUS ROSE, DPD JIM STOVALL, DPD JOHN ADAMCIK, DEPUTY SHERIFF
BUDDY WALTHERS, DPD HENRY MOORE AND IRVING DETECTIVE JOHN MCCABE; this after the DPD
searches the Paine residence and garage on the afternoon of 11/22.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President? 
Mr. PAINE - They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life. 
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you able to? 
Mr. PAINE - I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house. 
Mr. LIEBELER - By the what? 
Mr. PAINE - By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard. 
Mr. LIEBELER - What did you identify the place as being? 
Mr. PAINE - The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up. 

 

Attached shows the "touch-ups" LIFE did to the image next to a simple visual analysis of the Dartmouth professor's work who evidently can't line up a computer model to match the human he is attempting to prove is real in those images

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by David Josephs

[Michael Clark]

Thanks again David!

[David Josephs]

Just now, Paul Trejo said:

David,

You are misinterpreting the data.  By the numbers:

(1) Oswald ordered his rifle and pistol under an assumed name (Alek J. Hidell).   Authenticate that process for us Paul

(2) Ammunition in 1963 was readily available at Army Surplus stores in every major city.  Cheap.  Prove he ever was in physical contact with ammunition for that rifle

(3) Marina saw the rifle, but Ruth Paine never saw the rifle, nor even guessed that it existed.  And Marina's testimony is golden...  please don't tell me you're going to use her word as authenticated fact...  

(4) On the premise that LHO took his rifle to New Orleans with him, disassembled in one of his two army duffle bags, we only need to suppose that: (4.1) LHO did not let anybody else touch his duffle bags; and (4.2) Marina was so ashamed that LHO even bought weapons with his paltry income, that she never told anybody about them.Interesting assumption... Prove something though please.  Plus you completely skip over the week of March 25th...  or the reality that not a single report of the FBI or related agencies confirms this happened when it did... only after the fact.  PROVE something Paul...  the Money Order was found in 4 different places at 4 different times....

(5) Once LHO got to New Orleans, and asked his uncle Dutz to pick him up from the bus station, his uncle Dutz let LHO haul his own duffle bags and luggage.  This is what Dutz testified to the WC.  Again, LHO never let anybody else touch his duffle bags.  Nice anecdote...  proof please.

(6) There is nothing false about Ruth Paine's testimony that LHO bought two bus tickets -- one for himself and one for Marina -- and then returning one ticket.  Why would you think so?   Because the point was made that Oswald was leaving Marina and child behind when that was not the case.

(7) LHO did not let Marina have any money for anything.  Being a male-chauvanist control freak, if he ever gave Marina a single dollar for snacks it was a big event.  LHO bought two tickets -- one for himself to leave that day, and then one for Marina two take the bus some weeks later, after he would sent her a snail mail letter telling her that he had a job and a place to stay (because LHO could not afford a telephone at his Neeley Street address, or anyplace he stayed).  Citation for the "2 weeks later" (makes sense I just didn't see that reference when researching)  yet has nothing to do with proving the entire rifle process

(8) Ruth Paine felt sorry for Marina, because Marina was pregnant.  That's why Ruth offered: (8.1) to let Marina and Junie stay at her house with her own two children; (8.2) let LHO call Marina on her telephone; and (8.3) drive Marina to New Orleans herself.  not germane to this discussion and amazing to me that you know what's in people's thoughts...  ho DO you do that?

(9) Because of the generosity of Ruth Paine, LHO then took Marina's bus ticket and cashed it in, and gave Marina part of the refund money while she waited for LHO to call.   Also not germane to the topic.  Hey, I thought you said he NEVER gave her money...

(10) So, you see, LHO had his rifle with him at all times during his trip to New Orleans starting April 24th.  Not so much Paul.  
When did he leave work to pickup the rifle?
Where is the postcard the USPS would put in his PO Box for thew over-sized package?
How did he get the rifle from the PO to JCS and then to Neely that day?
Why is the only ammo suitable for that rifle from a CIA contract
 

Winchester Repeating Arms, of the US, manufactured 6.5x52 Carcano under a CIA (contract) during the early 50's. The intended use is not clear, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek civil-war, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960's. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy were from this production.
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html

If, somehow, you can prove he ordered, paid for and picked up the rifle with evidence that is not so easily shown to be fraudulent... Where is the evidence he ever fired that rifle, ever purchased ammo, a clip, or cleaning materials.  (https://kennedysandking.com/content/oswald-on-november-22-1963 this might help you)

 

(11) The "Soviet Branch of the CIA"?  What nonsense.   Paul, it is better to keep quite and be thought a fool then post what you do and remove all doubt.
In addition, a memo from James Angleton's CIA mole hunting unit, the CI/SIG -- which stands for Counterintelligence Special Investigations Group -- has surfaced in these files with handwriting on it which gives the name of a CIA Domestic Contact Division employee -- a name which appears to be one 'Andy' Anderson -- as a CIA contact for Harvey Oswald. This document -- which, like the SR 6 document, was in a "soft file" meaning it was not in the original Oswald 201 file -- confirms the recollections of other Clandestine Services employees that Andy Anderson did in fact debrief Oswald. Don Deneselya, who worked in the Russian Branch, Foreign Documents Division, Office of Contacts [OO/  FDD ,  USSR ] read  Anderson 's debrief in 1962. The very branch chief in the Domestic Contacts Division who would have overseen incoming debriefs like  Anderson 's confirms that his branch recovered the debriefing from the field office that had it.

id the CIA, contrary to decades of denials, debrief Oswald? The new release of files pursuant to the Records Act strengthens the evidentiary base for the proposition that the CIA did in fact debrief Oswald. Of particular note is the fact that the Chief of the CIA's Soviet Realities Branch -- in the Soviet Russia Division of the Directorate of Plans -- wanted to lay on interviews of Oswald at the time of the re-defector's return to the US in the Summer of 1962 -- a fact he recorded in a memorandum for the record three days after the assassination.

(12) According to FBI agent James Hosty, he asked to re-open the FBI case file on LHO in March 1963, after LHO took out a subscription for The Worker newspaper from New York City.  This was dumb, according to FBI HQ, because countless people took out such subscriptions, and the FBI was not about to track them all. Another incredibly lackluster statement showing yet again the shallow level of your understanding...  well done.

(13) It wasn't until LHO personally requested for the FBI to make a report of his FPCC-related arrest in New Orleans that the FBI finally re-opened the Oswald file. PAUL, stay on topic... we are talking about c-2766/CE139 - a rifle supposedly in Oswald's possession.  Concentrate!

(14) So, the FBI was not tracking LHO's every little move an piece of mail in March 1963.  That's not what I posted Paul...  If you want to argue that the FBI/CIA/ONI/INS/USPS was not watching the Russian defector at this time by referring to FBI reports with "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" as the subject.. you don't seem to understand the point here.

(15) James Hosty had the right to randomly select Soviet citizens in the USA in his area, and he selected Marina Oswald.  He went to go visit the Oswald's at their Elsbeth address, and they were not there.  The landlord kicked them out because they were fighting all the time, making a racket and breaking glass.  The Oswald's never talked to their neighbors -- and Marina could not speak English anyway.  The neighbors only assumed LHO was drinking -- since that is the normal scene where there is continual fighting in a home.  There is no plot there.  Says you.  And like the current POTUS, nothing you seem to say ever makes any sense or is backed by anything in Reality.  You are no where near a "source" for information at face value.  "Marina could not speak English anyway"...  Maybe Paul you should consider reading something other than your own work?

(16) It wasn't LHO that James Hosty went to visit in March, 1963, but Marina.  A package delivered to Alek J. Hidell did not hit the FBI radar until after the JFK assassination.  

Yet again Paul, you go off on some rant yet never get around to addressing the issue at hand.   Are you really trying to tell this community that the US intelligence community remained completely unaware that Oswald had weapons despite the paper trail offered to support its existence?  Between Sept 24 and Oct 31 the FBI was either feigning panic by not knowing where Oswald was all this time or covering for the fact that Oswald was doing FBI work in Dallas at Odio's... IMHO.  

In the FBI's Oswald HQ Folder #1 there are 120 pages of reports prior to August 1963.  As they move to Neely a protected identity informant confirms the evidence of their living there.

You saying the FBI then simply stopped bothering with the Oswalds in the same month the Oswald Project supposedly begins...   Paul... time to take stock and figure out if you want to be forever known for your complete lack of credibility before you fire back.  We need supporting evidence or at least a coherent argument that livers in reality...   and no, I won't be baited into a conversation with you.  You remain, along with a select few, a distraction here.  So enjoy "America" while it's still somewhat free and do/post/say whatever you like....  I'm not willing to engage ...

Take care
DJ

Regards,
--Paul Trejo