The Stamp on the Military ID card

[David Josephs]

18 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

I disagree with Horne that Zack Stout is "1st Sgt. B Stout" who signed the affidavit dated 04SEP59. FWIW

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/40153

This is a link to Armstrong's ZACK STOUT binder...

And we can chalk this up to coincidence?  Byline is RICHARD STOUT...

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP75-00149R000600170048-9.pdf

I'll keep looking.....

[James DiEugenio]

What does the B stand for?

[Chris Newton]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

What does the B stand for?

I don't know if it is a B or an R or a P. We are speculating about the signature on the "passport" affidavit for 1st Sgt. Stout.

The link to Armstrong's folder on Zack Stout, that David Joseph posted, provides an example of Zack's signature. It isn't even close to the signature on the affidavit. The time and distance concerning Oswald's association with Zack Stout and the Stout signature on the affidavit make me believe this is a coincidental relationship.

I did find a birth announcement in the Tustin Daily News for 1960 for a "William B. Stout" who lives with his wife in a nearby apartment complex. I don't believe this is early aircraft engineering icon  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bushnell_Stout

still searching...

[James DiEugenio]

Was there such a person on that base?

He should show up in some directory right?

[Tom Hume]

I vote for "B Stout", but what do you make of the vertical line running through the "B"? "B. I. Stout"?

[Chris Newton]

I was rechecking some of our sources and I noted that the ARRB mentions the ID in one paragraph in their Final Report. It also seems they "trolled" us big time because I can find no conclusions or explanations of what they found. Well done ARRB, well done.

(see bottom right corner and next page):

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3611&search=1173#relPageId=107&tab=page

 

[David Josephs]

Trump-esque gobble Dee-goop ...  but the explanation will be "so good, oh so good, you'll be so happy....  trust me"

[Sandy Larsen]

I just noticed this in John Armstrong's book:

Following the assassination the Dallas Police found numerous smaller photographs of Oswald (and Marina) with similar semi-circular white overlays.

He's talking about the white semicircle in the lower right corner.

His source:  WC Volume. 24, CE 282, 1986, 1989, 1990; Photo #451 on DPD microfilm, Dallas City Archives.

Maybe in Russia one could go to a photographer who would take a photo and then make photographs with the white semicircle in place. For the purpose of obtaining ID cards. In which case the Oswalds could have had several extras.

 

[Chris Newton]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Maybe in Russia one could go to a photographer who would take a photo and then make photographs with the white semicircle in place. For the purpose of obtaining ID cards. In which case the Oswalds could have had several extras.

Oswald supposedly  had these mad photography skills that he acquired at Jaggers-Childs-Stovall so why didn't he create a "US style visa" photo for his DD Form 1173 ID? Even a little "white out" (like it looks the WC used on the corner of the Minsk photo) would be faster and more professional looking than the fake postage stamps. Why make this ID look so "amateurish" when he allegedly did such a great job creating the other "fake" ID's?

Do we agree that the ID probably had one configuration in September 1959 and another configuration in November 1963?

If Oswald took his DD Form 1173 with him to the USSR then the KGB must have had it right? They had opportunities to inventory all his belongings when he was taken to the hospital. Do we think he could have concealed the ID from the KGB? The KGB considered Powers' DD form 1173 as proof Powers was CIA, would they have gone back and reconsidered the Oswald DD Form 1173 (if he had it on him)?

Alternatively, If Oswald didn't take it with him where was it when he was in the USSR? Did store he stuff at his Mom's?

When did Nagell get his copy of the ID?

Nagell's copy must have had one of three sources, Russian Intelligence, US Intelligence or Oswald himself correct? Which is more likely? BTW, Was Nagell's version laminated? Where is Nagell's version now?

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Chris Newton

[Jim Hargrove]

Don't know about Nagell's version, but Oswald's original DoD ID card is supposed to be at the National Archives, and it sure would be helpful to examine it directly. John Armstrong examined all of Oswald's alleged possessions in the late 1990s at the Archives but he reports the ID card was not to be found there.  Researchers today have a far more difficult time than John did in getting permission to actually hold Oswald's "possessions."  John had to wear white "evidence gloves" as he examined each of the items.

If anyone reads this who is near D.C., though, it might be worth a try to get a look at the actual card.  You have to contact NARA directly and request permission to examine a particular item.  Otherwise, you'll just get photos.

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Maybe in Russia one could go to a photographer who would take a photo and then make photographs with the white semicircle in place. For the purpose of obtaining ID cards. In which case the Oswalds could have had several extras.

Oswald supposedly  had these mad photography skills that he acquired at Jaggers-Childs-Stovall so why didn't he create a "US style visa" photo for his DD Form 1173 ID? Even a little "white out" (like it looks the WC used on the corner of the Minsk photo) would be faster and more professional looking than the fake postage stamps. Why make this ID look so "amateurish" when he allegedly did such a great job creating the other "fake" ID's?

That's the reason I think somebody was in a rush and had limited resources when camouflaging the original stamp on the photo.

IMO the only other possibility is that somebody was goofing around.

 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Do we agree that the ID probably had one configuration in September 1959 and another configuration in November 1963?

Yes, I agree. I think that only the photo changed. (And the accompanying stamps that were added.)
 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

If Oswald took his DD Form 1173 with him to the USSR then the KGB must have had it right? They had opportunities to inventory all his belongings when he was taken to the hospital. Do we think he could have concealed the ID from the KGB? The KGB considered Powers' DD form 1173 as proof Powers was CIA, would they have gone back and reconsidered the Oswald DD Form 1173 (if he had it on him)?

There are many possible outcomes if Oswald took the card with him to Russia.

But I'm pretty sure he was instructed on what to take. And I'm pretty sure the 1173 card wouldn't have been on the list.

If I were Oswald's handler, I would not have let him keep the card at all. I would have taken it right after it served its purpose. I'll bet that's precisely what happened. If not, then I'd think he left the card with his mom.
 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Alternatively, If Oswald didn't take it with him where was it when he was in the USSR? Did store he stuff at his Mom's?

When did Nagell get his copy of the ID?

Now that's a good question!

If Oswald's handler took the card at El Toro, Nagell could have gotten a copy only if he was officially (with the CIA's blessing) involved with Oswald. I don't know Nagell's story well enough to know if that happened or was a possibility. If Nagell wasn't officially involved with Oswald, then either Oswald's mom had saved the card and gave it back to Oswald, or he CIA gave the card back to Oswald.

What we do know almost for sure it that Nagell got his copy before the silly stamps were used to camouflage the old photo stamps. Because most likely (IMO) Nagell's card was either a photocopy or photograph of Oswald's card. And Nagell's card didn't have all those silly stampings on it.

 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Nagell's copy must have had one of three sources, Russian Intelligence, US Intelligence or Oswald himself correct?

Yes, right. Except I doubt it was from Russian Intelligence. I mean, that would have been really stupid for Oswald to have taken the cadr to Russia. Gary Powers took his card only because his capture was wholly unexpected.

 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Which is more likely?

Another good question, this time a tough one.

I can't see any reason the CIA would give the card back to Oswald upon his return from Russia. I suppose the CIA might have given a COPY of the card to Nagell if he needed it for whatever it was he was doing. In which case the original card would remain in CIA hands.

The other possibility is that Oswald's mom kept it while he was Russia. And that Nagell got a copy of it from Oswald after he returned. If so, then it was Oswald who put the Minsk photo on the card and silly-stamped it. Which would be a case of Oswald goofing around.

It boils down to two possible scenarios. One scenario has Oswald goofing around with the stamps. The other has Nagell getting a copy of the card from the CIA.

I've had problems with some of Nagell's claims. But I'm afraid in this case my money is on Nagell getting a copy from the CIA. Because I just can't believe that Oswald would do that goofing around. (Am I overlooking another possibility?)

So here is my most likely scenario: After Oswald got his 1959 passport, his handler took the DoD ID card and kept it. Then some time later Nagell got a copy of the ID. Finally, with the assassination clock ticking, someone decided that an Oswald wallet needed to be assembled just in case it was needed for the Big Event. The DoD ID was in their bag of tricks. They ripped off the photo and pasted the Minsk photo in its place. They silly-stamped it to camouflage the photo's prior stamp. And they inserted the ID into the wallet. (BTW, was the card found in the Tippit killing wallet? Or the theater wallet?)

But that leaves a Big Question: Why did the CIA rip off the original photo of Oswald and replace it with a stamped Russian photo of Oswald? The only explanation I can think of is that the original photo wasn't of Oswald at all.... not the one being framed. Maybe the photo was of one of the Oswald lookalikes going around. Hey, maybe Nagell himself was one of those lookalikes and that is the reason he had a copy of the card. Maybe multiple Oswald lookalikes had such a card, each with their own photo and their own Lee Harvey Oswald signature.
 

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

BTW, Was Nagell's version laminated? Where is Nagell's version now?

I think it was a photograph made to look authentic. A plastic lamination may have helped in making it look authentic.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

EDIT: This hypothesis has been rendered invalid due to the discovery that the photos on Oswald's DoD dependent ID card and Nagell's copy are actually identical, other than some alterations made to the photo on Nagell's copy.

My Hypothesis Part 2 - The Oswald DoD ID card after the passport was obtained:

After Oswald used his DoD ID card to get his 1959 passport, his handler took the card and kept it.

Some time after Oswald's usefulness in Russia wore off, the CIA gave certain Oswald impostors a copy of the ID with their own photo attached and their own Lee Harvey Oswald signature. Richard Case Nagell was one of those impostors. The CIA held onto the original card.

With the assassination clock ticking, someone decided that an Oswald wallet needed to be assembled, just in case it was needed for the Big Event. One of the DoD ID cards (perhaps the original) happened to be in their bag of tricks. They ripped the photo off because it wasn't of Oswald, and pasted in its place the only ID style photo they had... a Minsk photo that had been used for an ID card there. They "silly-stamped" it to camouflage the photo's prior Russian stamp, and inserted the ID into the wallet. (BTW, was the card found in the Tippit-location wallet? Or the theater wallet?)

And that is why we see the card in the condition we do today. And why Nagell had a copy of it sans the "silly stamps."

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Following the assassination the Dallas Police found numerous smaller photographs of Oswald (and Marina) with similar semi-circular white overlays.

...like these, maybe?

[Sandy Larsen]

My complete hypothesis can be found on the Harvey and Lee thread:
 

(Only one tiny paragraph is Harvey & Lee specific. And it explains only a small detail regarding the Minsk photo. It can be ignored by non-believers.)

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

...like these, maybe?

Very good. Thanks Chris!

I don't recall seeing any photos like the ones in the upper left before.