The Stamp on the Military ID card

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

So on the off chance this was a bunch of horse do-do, I did what I could to research the security procedures and found a copy of the Marine Corps Personnel Manual, MARCORPERSMAN 11-14, dated 1967.

It turns out the statement above is pretty damn accurate, if not extreme enough. See below Section 9, Security and Accountability of DD forms 1173:

 

 

 

That's a really good find, Chris.

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Then how was it faked?  Or was it not faked?

[Chris Newton]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Then how was it faked?  Or was it not faked?

I think the ID is real and that it was fraudulently prepared for Oswald by a third party on 9/3 or 9/4, 1959.

On 03SEP59 Oswald was assigned to H&HS, MCAS, El Toro. He had been stationed at MCAS-9, Tustin, Ca., the nearby Airship base that had been converted to the Marine's largest Helicopter base in California. This re-assignment meant that Oswald left his barracks (at Tustin) and moved into new (to him) barracks on El Toro. Low ranking enlisted persons assigned to a separation company for out processing usually spend their days picking up cigarette butts and painting curbs, in between trips to the PX and the theater and total boredom. Outside of the security issues surrounding that type of ID, I can't imagine how Oswald would be able to access a typewriter and the privacy necessary to be able to create the fraudulent DD Form 1173.

It's possible that the ID card was prepared for Oswald for a purpose entirely different from the one, (and only - that we know of), purpose he used it for: applying for his passport on 9/4/59. Was Oswald "going rogue" when he did this? If so, how did he "know" not to use his current active duty ID, (DD Form 2 (green)) when applying for the passport? And how can we explain the affidavit in any other context?

Did Oswald have a laminated version of this card when he presented it to the Santa Clara County Clerk, and was the un-laminated version kept in his ONI 201 with a completed DD Form 1172?

I disagree with Horne that Zack Stout is "1st Sgt. B Stout" who signed the affidavit dated 04SEP59. FWIW

Edited September 11, 2017 by Chris Newton

[David Josephs]

46 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

I think the ID is real and that it was fraudulently prepared for Oswald by a third party on 9/3 or 9/4, 1959.

Sorry if I missed where you posted this...  but aren't these cards good for 3 years.. Doesn't that mean a Dec 7, 1959 original creation date?

Well then if Lee was discharged in March '59 as Gorsky states...   and was part of this overall plan...

They would have used his card, given willingly.   (I realize that accepting Harvey and Lee is part of this exercise. Without them we'd need to find another way to acquire the goods... with the help of the FBI/CIA and DoD.... seems to me one could acquire/create whatever was needed.)

[Chris Newton]

25 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Sorry if I missed where you posted this...  but aren't these cards good for 3 years.. Doesn't that mean a Dec 7, 1959 original creation date?

David,

The wording is probably important, "...discharged from the Marine Base in March,  1959..." is not the same as discharged from the Marine Corps. There is a gap of about 6 months in Anne Egerter's CIA bio of Oswald between the time that he left Japan and the Philippines and when he was assigned to MCAS-9. It would have made sense that he returned to some base in the US such as El Toro before his next duty station. When he was "discharged from the Marine Base (EL Toro) in March, 1959",  where was he next assigned?

The obvious discharge date conflict that I see is Egerter's "03SEP59" date, that seems to originate from the Fain Report (and M. Oswald's alleged statements) whereas the "official" date in the extant H&HS MCAS, paperwork is 11SEP59.

 

The card can be issued for any time period but not less than 30 days or greater than 6 years, per the reg.s circa 1959.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Chris Newton

[James DiEugenio]

Then Chris, who issued Oswald the DOD card on September 4th?

And who is this Stout guy?

[Larry Hancock]

Chris, slightly off topic but this takes me back to one of Oswald's photos which shows a Marine base flight line - back in the day a former Marine Corps security officer researched it and found that the location of the Air unit indicated by the markings on the aircraft was in Wash State as I recall...someplace where Oswald was never officially staioned. It raised a big question because the photo indicates it was taken within or close to the alert aircraft area which means it was on base and in what would normally be access controlled at some level..  Just makes me wonder based on your analysis.

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Then how was it faked?  Or was it not faked?

Jim,

Chris is careful and tries to speculate as little as possible. I don't mind speculating if I feel there is enough evidence to support a hypothesize.

Following is my hypothesis. I think it's close to what Chris believes. (In fact, major parts of it originated with Chris.)

Hypothesis:

Oswald was to be discharged from the Marine Corps on the Sept. 11, 1959. The CIA wanted Oswald to get his passport (for his fake defection) as soon as possible. Problem is, active servicemen are not allowed to have passports. So what the CIA did was get a blank dependent ID card and fill it out as though Oswald were an Inactive member of the Service. The card was issued to Oswald on (or just before) Sept. 4, but was postdated to Sept. 11, Oswald's discharge date.

On Sept. 4, Oswald applied for his passport and appeared before the County Clerk to take the oath of allegiance. He showed his Active military ID (for which he wouldn't be eligible for a passport), his postdated Inactive military ID (for which he would be eligible for a passport, though not till Sept. 11), and the following affidavit:

 

4 Sept 1959                 

Separation Section, H&HS., MCAS., El Toro, Santa Ana, California

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

This is to certify that PFC (E-2) Lee Harvey OSWALD, 1653230, U.S. Marine Corps is scheduled to be released from Active Duty and Transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve (Inactive) on 11 September 1959.

                           [signed by P(?) Stout 1st Sgt]
                           A. G. Ayers, JR
                           1stLt.    USMCR

This and the postdated ID card were accepted by the County clerk as valid ID and proof that Oswald would be Inactive on Sept. 11. The clerk typed on Oswald's passport application the number from his post-dated ID card.

The passport was mailed to Marguerite's home in Fort Worth on Sept. 10.

One question regarding this scenario is how the CIA got the blank ID card. Chris has shown that there were very tight security procedures surrounding these cards. But based on Gary Powers ID -- which was the same kind as Oswald's -- it seems to me that the CIA was allowed to issue cards. I say that because the expiration date typed on Powers' card wasn't in the strict military format that one would expect from a military issued card.

With that in mind, it is my opinion that the CIA had an agreement with the uniformed services whereby they could issue these dependent ID cards. And that that is how the CIA got the one for Oswald. Oswald's card needed no lamination given that its sole purpose was to quickly get a passport for him.

It is my opinion that 1) the affidavit was created by the CIA and passed off as a Navy issued document, and 2) it and the ID card were signed by a fictitious Sgt. Stout. My opinion is based on Lt. Ayers not remembering a Sgt. Stout and on Chris not being able to find a Stout who fits the bill after exhaustive searching.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Following is my hypothesis.

I agree and concur with 95% of your hypothesis with minor quibbles.

I think we've established that there were very tight security procedures surrounding these cards. I believe that DoD knows / knew from whence this card originated and they have covered up that source. I also don't think the Oswald DD 1173 was from a batch available to H&HS, MCAS El Toro at the time it was prepared for Oswald.

I've yet to track down "P Stout" or "B Stout" or "R Stout" that would have served at H&HS MCAS, El Toro in 1959. It seems I've looked for him a hundred different ways. I have found an obituary for a "Robert Stout" that served in Korea in the Marines and was promoted to SSG (E-6) there before returning to the States. He served 7 years total (no idea what his final grade was) before attending San Jose State and Santa Clara U.

the laminated card <sigh>...

I think I must be imagining the bill underneath the top left corner of the lamination in this Soviet hand-out photo:

[Chris Newton]

5 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Chris, slightly off topic but this takes me back to one of Oswald's photos which shows a Marine base flight line - back in the day a former Marine Corps security officer researched it and found that the location of the Air unit indicated by the markings on the aircraft was in Wash State as I recall...someplace where Oswald was never officially staioned. It raised a big question because the photo indicates it was taken within or close to the alert aircraft area which means it was on base and in what would normally be access controlled at some level..  Just makes me wonder based on your analysis.

Larry - was that one of the small square black and white photos with the white border around them found in Oswald's belongings? I think I had a bunch of those on my drive. The late great Tommy Graves (just kidding he's still kicking - he's just dead to this forum atm) and I were attempting to locate the locations using google earth. When I get a chance I'll go back and review what we had done and if I can add to it. I just can't start anything "new" until I finish a story I'm writing on RP.

I'm not entirely sure about dates of "the gap" in service for Oswald. I'm pretty sure it's been addressed before though. Sometime before his 30 days leave I think. I'll re-review that too at a later date.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

Okay Chris,

Upon seeing that photo, I agree that Gary Power's ID was laminated. But either it was done with a thin plastic laminate (a possibility I suggested earlier), or with a brittle plastic (the likes of which I am unaware) that could crack and break upon being bent. Because otherwise there would be no way to explain the missing pieces of card.

But regardless of that, you have proven your point (to my satisfaction, anyway) that generally all such cards were laminated, even the ones issued by or for the CIA.

So Oswald's card was special in that it wasn't laminated at all. (Which I already accounted for in my hypothesis.)

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So Oswald's card was special in that it wasn't laminated at all.

It's one of the reasons that I don't believe it was issued by Ayer's crew at H&HS, MCAS, El Toro. They had a lamination machine.

There may have been no time for the persons who supplied Oswald with the card to get the lamination done on September 4th. He was physically moving from one base to another (Tustin to El Toro), I'm assuming in the morning. He has to report in to his new unit with his orders, meet his new chain of command, see the supply Sgt., etc. Then in the afternoon he has to acquire the DD 1173 and go downtown to the County Clerk (45 min walk from El Toro) and presumably wait in line.

There is a lead about who these people might be. When the HSCA allowed the public to come forward and present evidence Hal Verb stepped up and related a story about a phone conversation he overheard. If the caller is on the level then it's Marine Corp CID at Tustin that might be helping Oswald. That's a separate "animal" from ONI they are not exactly the same thing. I haven't started exploring it but I think it deserves a "look":

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145536#relPageId=64&tab=page

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

It's one of the reasons that I don't believe it was issued by Ayer's crew at H&HS, MCAS, El Toro. They had a lamination machine.

There may have been no time for the persons who supplied Oswald with the card to get the lamination done on September 4th. He was physically moving from one base to another (Tustin to El Toro), I'm assuming in the morning. He has to report in to his new unit with his orders, meet his new chain of command, see the supply Sgt., etc. Then in the afternoon he has to acquire the DD 1173 and go downtown to the County Clerk (45 min walk from El Toro) and presumably wait in line.

There is a lead about who these people might be. When the HSCA allowed the public to come forward and present evidence Hal Verb stepped up and related a story about a phone conversation he overheard. If the caller is on the level then it's Marine Corp CID at Tustin that might be helping Oswald. That's a separate "animal" from ONI they are not exactly the same thing. I haven't started exploring it but I think it deserves a "look":

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145536#relPageId=64&tab=page

That's quite interesting. It supports your earlier hunch that Oswald may have spent a few days at El Toro preparing for his fake defection.

BTW, what does CID stand for?

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Larry Hancock]

Yes Chris, and I only mention it as it seems a bit of a mystery with Oswald being somewhere during his service that does not fit his known assignment record...

[Larry Hancock]

Andy for Sandy CID is the Criminal Investigative Service - which among other things does counter intelligence..these days its

NCIS, one of my favorite TV shows..