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JFK Secret Service Agent: hole in windshield of limo!


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I feel it is necessary to again copy and paste some of Roy Kellerman's actual WC testimony.

Because you can then so easily find first hand witness observation statements in Kellerman's recounting that contradict the WC's final findings or are simply not even mentioned.

I will stop and space out certain areas of Kellerman's testimony that are contradictory and ask questions about them that one would hope Kellerman's main WC questioner ( Specter) would have asked but didn't.


Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. "As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop." 

 

Mr. Kellerman.   And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. 

 

My question to Mr. Kellerman at this point...so you believe JFK was hit at the same time you heard this first "firecracker, pop" report sound?

In other words, you heard the President say "My God, I am hit" right after the firecracker,pop sound ( the first report sound ) and not after you heard a second shot sound?

 

 

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction. 
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? 
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands-- 
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. 
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. 
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here. 
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. 
Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor. 
Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not. 
Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there? 
Representative FORD. Yes. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road. 
Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to, him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit." 
Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right. 
Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right. 

 

My question to Agent Kellerman ... did it cross your most important training duty mind to perhaps jump up over the back of your seat and the bar above it to immediately and instinctively put your body over the President's since you clearly saw he was shot at the first firecracker,pop report and hearing him say he was "hit", rather than remain in your seat for up to 5 seconds to make two communiques for getting out of there which took up this 5 seconds and which may have been enough time to get back and body shield the President from more shots?


Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice? 
Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ok. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, IT CARRIED ON RIGHT THEN.

 

Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. 
Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you. 
Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pin-point just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; THE VOICE BROKE IN RIGHT THEN.

.

Mr. SPECTER. At about the SAME TIME? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. THAT IS CORRECT SIR. THAT IS RIGHT.


Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit." 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down-- 
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it. 
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit." 
Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds. 
Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? 


Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, THESE "SHELLS" CAME IN ALL TOGETHER. 


Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. 
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. YES SIR, YES SIR; AT LEAST THREE.


Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous. 
Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more. 
Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message. 
Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry? 


Mr. KELLERMAN.

I WILL ESTIMATE AT 5 SECONDS...IF THAT. 

 

Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. 
Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. 
Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. 
Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- 
Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. 

My question to Mr. Kellerman ... Agent Hill had time to leave his car, run to and then climb onto the President's car after the first firecracker,pop sound report and just as the second shot hits the President in the head? All while you are on the radio giving instructions to get out of there?

 

Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this. 
Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on. 
Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was-- he was--flat in the seat in this direction. 
Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway. 

My question to Mr. Kellerman... so you only looked back behind you "once more" after your first looked back and saw the wounded President and all this significant movement of the occupants in the rear seats ( and the arrival and positioning of Agent Hill ) had already taken place?


Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?" 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots. 
Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. 
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? 
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. 
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. 
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Senator COOPER. Not before? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over. 
Senator COOPER. What was that? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh. 


Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN.     YES SIR. 

 


Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air. 
Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself. 
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it. 
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 


Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker? 
Mr. KELLERMAN.   YES, DEFINITELY. VERY MUCH SO.

 

My question to Mr. Kellerman... You say you have been around the sound of gunfire?

You say the second and third shots sounded different than the first report in this sequence of 3 shots?

Were the second two reports louder sounding than the first one?

More powerful sounding?

One ( the first shot) a firecracker,pop sound. And then two more shots seconds later much louder sounding...or in the least different sounding?

In your experience, can three shots coming from "the same rifle" sound different like that in loudness and power? And shouldn't a shot closer to you ( as the first one was) be louder than those fired from a farther distance?


Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there. 
Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as the-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. 
Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. YES SIR.  We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear. 


Representative FORD. So there was NO OTHER SOUND that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. THAT IS RIGHT. NO OTHER SHOT. 

 


Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. 
Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir. 
Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd. 
Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir. 
Representative FORD. All right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. 
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? 
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. 
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. 
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? 
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." 
Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. 
Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. 
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true. 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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On 8/3/2018 at 9:44 PM, Vince Palamara said:

JFK Secret Service Agent Joe Paolella, who passed away in 2017, admits that he saw a bullet hole in the windshield of President Kennedy’s bloody limousine the night of the assassination AND that Gerald Blaine omitted this from his book The Kennedy Detail!!! Author William Law is coming out with the book they were working on--Paolella thought there was a conspiracy, questioned Oswald's abilities, and was no fan of Blaine's book.

 

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143

 

Here is the supposedly disposed of windshield of the JFK Limo in storage at the national archives.  Are you saying that this is a fake?

33-3416a.gif?download=true

 

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On 8/3/2018 at 10:19 PM, Vince Palamara said:

See above, as well. Pamela, I admire your work on the limousine, as well. That is what you are known for :):)

Well there sure are a lot of choices...

http://ss100x.com/hole1.html

I do think on thing I am know for is not going down rabbit trails...the Fetzerites seem to specialize in that, though...

Edited by Pamela Brown
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This is not a video. It is just a high res copy of Macintyre one that I could not directly post. Check out the overall graininess then look closely at the the top of the windshield. I just noticed this and was amazed at how sharp the top line of the windshield is. If you wanted to remove a bullet hole it is best not to place the seem or transition too close to the object you are removing because that is where people may look for fakery.  The image is very clear once  you click on it.
 

 

Edited by Chris Bristow
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This next question is probably one of the most important in Kennedy assassination research:

How many witnesses do you need in order to believe what the witnesses are saying?  One?  Or, Two?  Or, 9?  Or, 2 dozen?  Or, over 40?

How many are necessary in a court of law?  When does one stop saying this is research theory and say this is a fact based on witness testimony?

Vince Palamara   

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On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:06 PM, Greg Wagner said:

By my count, we have 9 witnesses who claim they saw a bullet hole in windshield:

  • Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch
  • Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch
  • Stavis Ellis, DPD 
  • HR Freeman, DPD 
  • Dr Evalea Glanges
  • Bill Greer, SS (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police)
  • Joe Paolella, SS 
  • Charles Taylor, Jr, SS 
  • George Whitaker, Ford
Edited by John Butler
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On 9/2/2018 at 10:25 AM, John Butler said:

This next question is probably one of the most important in Kennedy assassination research:

How many witnesses do you need in order to believe what the witnesses are saying?  One?  Or, Two?  Or, 9?  Or, 2 dozen?  Or, over 40?

How many are necessary in a court of law?  When does one stop saying this is research theory and say this is a fact based on witness testimony?

Vince Palamara   

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Vince, would you mind also supplying the information on the various locations of the holes these people said they saw in the limo windshield on 11.22.63?  Thanks...

 

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Vince,

Since you seem intent on re-posting old theories, debunked long ago, why not include the Fetzer 'spiral nebulae' theory of the Altgens 1-6?  Surely you would not want anyone to miss out on that gem...

 

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On 8/7/2018 at 2:58 PM, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305143

 

Here is the supposedly disposed of windshield of the JFK Limo in storage at the national archives.  Are you saying that this is a fake?

33-3416a.gif?download=true

 

The limo windshield shown in CE351 is the one removed from SS100X by the Arlington Glass men at the White House Garage on Monday, Nov. 25th, who pushed it out with their feet -- hence the long striations.  

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On 8/7/2018 at 2:48 PM, Joe Bauer said:

I feel it is necessary to again copy and paste some of Roy Kellerman's actual WC testimony.

Because you can then so easily find first hand witness observation statements in Kellerman's recounting that contradict the WC's final findings or are simply not even mentioned.

I will stop and space out certain areas of Kellerman's testimony that are contradictory and ask questions about them that one would hope Kellerman's main WC questioner ( Specter) would have asked but didn't.


Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down Elm Street after turning off of Houston. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. "As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop." 

 

Mr. Kellerman.   And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. 

 

My question to Mr. Kellerman at this point...so you believe JFK was hit at the same time you heard this first "firecracker, pop" report sound?

In other words, you heard the President say "My God, I am hit" right after the firecracker,pop sound ( the first report sound ) and not after you heard a second shot sound?

 

 

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction. 
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon? 
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands-- 
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section. 
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat. 
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here. 
Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap-- Mrs. Connally--and she was lying flat over him. 
Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor. 
Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop. 
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not. 
Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there? 
Representative FORD. Yes. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road. 
Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to, him and said, "Let's get out of here. We are hit." 
Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right. 
Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right. 

 

My question to Agent Kellerman ... did it cross your most important training duty mind to perhaps jump up over the back of your seat and the bar above it to immediately and instinctively put your body over the President's since you clearly saw he was shot at the first firecracker,pop report and hearing him say he was "hit", rather than remain in your seat for up to 5 seconds to make two communiques for getting out of there which took up this 5 seconds and which may have been enough time to get back and body shield the President from more shots?


Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice? 
Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ok. From the noise of which I was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, IT CARRIED ON RIGHT THEN.

 

Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice there is only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents carried very clearly. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice prior to that day? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years. 
Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as everywhere, and he would call you. 
Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to pin-point just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; THE VOICE BROKE IN RIGHT THEN.

.

Mr. SPECTER. At about the SAME TIME? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. THAT IS CORRECT SIR. THAT IS RIGHT.


Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit." 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then sir. This statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back I come right down-- 
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it. 
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit." 
Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have described? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds. 
Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best estimate would be? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? 


Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, THESE "SHELLS" CAME IN ALL TOGETHER. 


Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. 
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. YES SIR, YES SIR; AT LEAST THREE.


Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous. 
Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing, trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the time-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more. 
Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that radio message. 
Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry? 


Mr. KELLERMAN.

I WILL ESTIMATE AT 5 SECONDS...IF THAT. 

 

Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. 
Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. 
Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr. Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back. 
Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the-- 
Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear, Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her. 

My question to Mr. Kellerman ... Agent Hill had time to leave his car, run to and then climb onto the President's car after the first firecracker,pop sound report and just as the second shot hits the President in the head? All while you are on the radio giving instructions to get out of there?

 

Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this. 
Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy make at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on. 
Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following that? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which was-- he was--flat in the seat in this direction. 
Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway. 

My question to Mr. Kellerman... so you only looked back behind you "once more" after your first looked back and saw the wounded President and all this significant movement of the occupants in the rear seats ( and the arrival and positioning of Agent Hill ) had already taken place?


Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?" 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots. 
Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. 
Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? 
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. 
Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. 
Senator COOPER. About the time it came in? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Senator COOPER. Not before? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over. 
Senator COOPER. What was that? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh. 


Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN.     YES SIR. 

 


Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air. 
Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself. 
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it. 
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 


Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker? 
Mr. KELLERMAN.   YES, DEFINITELY. VERY MUCH SO.

 

My question to Mr. Kellerman... You say you have been around the sound of gunfire?

You say the second and third shots sounded different than the first report in this sequence of 3 shots?

Were the second two reports louder sounding than the first one?

More powerful sounding?

One ( the first shot) a firecracker,pop sound. And then two more shots seconds later much louder sounding...or in the least different sounding?

In your experience, can three shots coming from "the same rifle" sound different like that in loudness and power? And shouldn't a shot closer to you ( as the first one was) be louder than those fired from a farther distance?


Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there. 
Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as the-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. 
Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. YES SIR.  We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear. 


Representative FORD. So there was NO OTHER SOUND that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. THAT IS RIGHT. NO OTHER SHOT. 

 


Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. 
Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to Lawson? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir. 
Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd. 
Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir. 
Representative FORD. All right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. 
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say? 
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots. 
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry. 
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr. Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please? 
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No." 
Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion. 
Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you-- 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. 
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true. 

Although much of what Kellerman was saying is credible, it seems to me he was doing some serious CYA regarding his actions -- or lack of them -- during the assassination.  For one, he claimed he heard JFK speak.  That is not supported by anyone else in the limo.  In fact, Jackie said that it was hard to hear Greer or Kellerman.  She even thought their might have been a second windshield between them.  

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On 8/4/2018 at 1:34 AM, Joe Bauer said:

I also recently re-read Agent Kellerman's Warren Commission testimony.

I've mentioned before that I believe the indentation in the metal frame above the windshield in the JFK limo ( noticed after JFK was killed ) is more important than less so in evaluating the evidence of more than 2 bullets being fired at JFK while in the limo.

The only way to present my case with any credibility is to paste agent Roy Kellerman's actual Warren Commission testimony regarding this indentation. Especially since Kellerman claims he believes he was the first to notice this suspicious and intriguing anomaly.

Kellerman described the shots coming into the limo as a "flurry."

In most cases, wouldn't a "flurry" indicate more than just "two" shots?

Kellerman is vague about the indentation and it's origin. He says he noticed it but not before JFK was shot. Only after.

Okay, he might not have, but the indentation was not so small in diameter size and shallow in depth that someone other than Kellerman, ( perhaps a limo cleaner and preparer back in Washington or even after several trips through other Texas cities ?) could easily have seen this if the indentation was made before JFK was shot.

I wash my cars. Always have. A hole like that would have caught my attention in just minutes of cleaning the inside of my cars.

Wouldn't presidential limo cleaners be even more observant?

The metal used in that limo was solid and heavy. It would have taken something very solid and high velocity to indent that windshield frame as noticeably as this one did.

Something like a strong whack from a ball pin hammer?

Kellerman states he saw the x-rays of the inside of JFK's brain. He described 40 small points of light ( like stars in the sky) which were small bullet fragments. The largest fragment found ( 1 ) was only the size of a "match head."

The head shot bullet into JFK's head obviously fragmentized.

If no piece of that head shot bullet was left any bigger than a match head and those 40 bullet fragments made up most of that bullet, that rules out that bullet as a cause of the much larger circumference hole in the windshield frame.

And the incoming hit direction of whatever caused the windshield frame indentation was the same as the other bullets reportedly fired at JFK.

Kellerman also describes the cracked windshield.  Again, if the head shot bullet totally fragmentized upon impact...what other missile made the windshield crack as significantly as it did?

Two other incongruous statements by Kellerman.

He defended his non-physical action to protect the President once he heard JFK say "My God, I am hit" by stating that agent Clint Hill had already climbed on board the back of the limo and was sprawling on top of JFK and Jackie.

That is not true.

Agent Hill didn't even get to the limo until JFK was hit "later" in the head with the second shot.

Kellerman chose to stay in his seat and radio "lets get out of here" instructions well before Hill was on board. If Kellerman was true to his body risking JFK protecting duty he should have immediately climbed into the back seat as he said he could have done and was sworn to do. The bar separating him from the back two seats was not an insurmountable obstacle he said.

And Kellerman also says the limo never traveled slower than 12 to 25 mph. Even through Dealey Plaza and the turn onto Elm from Houston or when JFK was struck in the head.

Contrary to many eye witnesses saying the limo's back brake lights came on at the time of the JFK head shot ( just before and during) and the Zapruder film clearly shows driver Bill Greer turning his head, neck and shoulders 180 degrees around and staring at JFK just as his head is blown apart.

No driver tuns around that much so that his eyes are looking 180 degrees behind him without letting off the accelerator to do so, and probably even touching his brake pedal as well.

I never have in 47 years of driving.

Kellerman's WC testimony is so full of holes and misrepresentations. Yet his questioners just took it all in without any follow up inquiry of substance.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle. 
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell. 
Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield. 
Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror. 
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is the framework. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just describe?

(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indention? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th. 
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that correct? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. 
Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in Dallas? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about November 27? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not. 
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder. 
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car. 
Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or about November 27? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself. 
Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir. 
Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar. 
Representative FORD. That is what I meant. 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular indentation? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir. 
Representative FORD. All right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in Washington? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't. 
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of Exhibit No. 349. 
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture represents? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. This crack is opposite the mirror--facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and-- 
Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile. 
Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day. 
Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. 
Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as the President's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the White House garage? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the White House garage, did you feel the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, I did-- 
Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka was the other person. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was. 
Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did. 
Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car. 
Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350. 
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. for identification, was received in evidence.)


Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane. One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition. 
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct. 
Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on November 22? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever. 
Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the shooting on November 22? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have. 
Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity. 
Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963, was the windshield in or out of the car? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going to remove it. 
Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there. 
Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. 
Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you. have a missile that was received from Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen. 

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40 lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed that. 
Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you say? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger. 

When SS100X was brought to Hess+Eisenhardt after the assassination, Willard Hess reportedly said that the dent looked like a hit from a 'ball peen hammer.'  

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Thanks Pamela Brown for pointing out the Cimino and Fetzner post,

From Tampering with the limo in the JFK Altgens6:

In the article is this "That shirt was so distinctive it forced the CIA to try to alter it out of existence, where alterations to Altens6 were even made to impose facial features of Lovelady on Lee."

I posted several years back on the Altgens 6 and the Oswald figure, Doorway Man, having a face mask of Billy Lovelady imposed to disguise whoever Doorway Man was.  I'm glad to see Cimino and Fetzner agree.

Actually, they got there first with the idea and I am agreeing with them.  Most people when they saw this argument treated it if it was rank heresy.

I hate to disagree with Cimino and Fetzner on one point.  The CIA probably had nothing to do with Altgens 6.  If you follow the timeline and Uncle Walter showing it on the CBS news that day then the retouching or editing more than likely took place at the Dallas Morning News or the AP hq. 

Edited by John Butler
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Here's another heresy from the past from the Marie Muchmore film.  This involves the possibility that the windshield hole may have been made on Houston.

limo_on_Main_with_possible_bullet_hole.j

Or, this may be imaginary to some or real to others:

muchmore_kennedy_head_shot_ab.jpg

The angle here could be right for the left most 2nd floor offices of the TSBD.  This is the ones where the windows are always shaded and closed except for the Tina Towner film.

I offer this as the reason the Altgens 5 photo was altered just after turning onto Houston Street.

This will give you a better idea about bullet holes in a windshield.  These were made by an AK-47 at close range, about 50 ft.

truck_bullet_holes.jpg

Edited by John Butler
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The reason I posted the truck photo is that some bullet holes don't show a through and through hole.  It may be because of camera angle or it could be from bad, weaker ammunition.  There are at least 3 showing no hole.  I remember seeing this as all holes were through and through holes.  But, that is nearly 50 years ago.

Here is something I hadn't notice about Altgens 7.  Altgens 7 shows what may be a bullet hole but, it is slightly different in position as the bullet hole is portrayed in Altgens 6.  This may be due to camera angle and the 3 degree slope going down hill.

You can see the hole in Altgens 6 if you look close. 

altgens_6_and_7_bullet_holes.jpg

 

 

Edited by John Butler
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On 9/3/2018 at 11:15 AM, Pamela Brown said:

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang. 
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry? 
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. 


Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker? 
Mr. KELLERMAN.   YES, DEFINITELY. VERY MUCH SO.

In my opinion, this Kellerman answer of the later gun firing sounds being "very much so" different from the first firecracker sounding one is clearly more important in what it implies than not and that it is also absurdly illogical to not recognize and seriously consider this.

This difference in the sounds and intensity of the shots could be solid proof that there was more than one shooter and one gun being fired at JFK in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963. 

Kellerman's description of the difference using the analogy of the sound a passing jet makes when surpassing the sound barrier versus a firecracker sound may not be the most relatively experienced and understood one but it's clear in it's message that the difference was "significant." 

When I think of a jet flying over me and creating a sonic BOOM I remember this sound as being so powerful you "felt" it's intensity. Almost like a close by thunderclap. Most people instinctively duck down a little from this powerful blast.

Whereas a firecracker sound or even a car backfire sound may startle you also but not near as much as a sonic boom, especially if these firecracker and backfire sounds aren't right next to you.

It's a point and question of intensity.

All three or more shots occurred on Elm Street in a short 4 to 5 second time span and only 75 feet apart ( 190 ft first shot-265 ft last head shot ) and in the same physical landscape tunnel like location where the acoustics ( including echos ) should have been relatively the same.

With no significant difference in shot target and acoustic location ( and alleged origination? ) how does one rationally explain or dismiss Kellerman's firm recollection of the latter shot sounds being distinctly different from the first one - firecracker versus sonic boom?

And many other ear witnesses in Dealey Plaza that day also stated that the gun shot sounds differed, most commonly in their intensity. Firecracker pop ( first shot ) versus BOOM later shots. Echoing Kellerman's WC sworn testimony.

All of which makes it more reasonable to consider different guns were firing at JFK.

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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11 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

In my opinion, this Kellerman answer of the later gun firing sounds being so "different" from the first firecracker sounding one is so clearly more important in what it implies than not, it's absurdly illogical not to recognize and seriously consider this.

This difference in the sounds and intensity of the shots could be solid proof that there was more than one shooter and one gun being fired at JFK in Dealey Plaza on 11,22,1963. 

Kellerman's description of the difference using the analogy of the sound a passing jet makes when surpassing the sound barrier versus a firecracker sound may not be the most relatively experienced and understood one but it's clear in it's message that the difference was "significant." 

When I think of a jet flying over me and creating a sonic BOOM I remember this sound as being so powerful you "feel" it's intensity. Almost like a close by thunderclap. Most people instinctively duck down a little from this powerful blast.

Whereas a firecracker sound or even a car backfire sound may startle you also but not near as much as a sonic boom, especially if these firecracker and backfire sounds aren't right next to you.

It's a point and question of intensity.

All three or more shots occurred on Elm Street only 75 feet apart ( 190 ft first shot-265 ft last head shot ) and in the same physical landscape tunnel like location where the acoustics ( including echos ) should have been the same or at least not noticeably different.

With no significant difference in shot target and acoustic location ( and origination? ) how does one rationally dismiss Kellerman's firm recollection of the shot sounds after the first one being distinctly different - firecracker versus sonic boom?

And many other ear witnesses in Dealey Plaza that day also stated that the gun shot sounds differed, most commonly in their intensity. Firecracker pop ( first shot ) versus BOOM later shots. Echoing Kellerman's WC sworn testimony.

All of which makes it more reasonable to consider different guns were firing at JFK.

 

 

 

Joe,

In addition to the different sounds of the shots reasonably proving multiple firearms in use that day, I would add the different ammunition types in use also reasonably prove multiple firearms used by multiple shooters.  Full metal jacket rounds that penetrate and keep penetrating (the through the windshield throat shot, the bullet found on the stretcher).  Fragmenting rounds that penetrate then break apart / mushroom (the head shot, the fragments left in JBC's wrist and leg).  

Thanks 

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