Where did Oswald develop the infamous gun photos?

[Stephanie Goldberg]

Since I'm pretty new here, I realize this may have already been covered.  I did try to search the forum, but I couldn't find anything exactly like this.

If Marina took the gun photos of Oswald on March 31, 1963, where did they have the film developed?   And when?  

If Oswald was still working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall then, he could have potentially developed them himself, except I think he lost his job right around then, didn't he? 

A note from Seth Kantor's notebook in the Warren Commission exhibits says in part - 

"Ask Fritz --

1 - Who N.C. preacher who tipped them about the mail-order purchase?

2 - 501 Elm is place that processed photo.  What are details of photo (showing gun & Daily Worker head: "Be Militant")"

501 Elm is the Dal-Tex building, isn't it?  Did they have a photo processing facility in March of 1963 among their offices?  I couldn't find that information.  And where did Mr. Kantor obtain this information about where the photo was allegedly processed?  

 

 

[Tony Krome]

 

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been employed or associated with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. GRAEF. About 10 or 11 years; perhaps a little longer.

Mr. JENNER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 427 again, would you identify the handwriting and block printing on this Exhibit 427, if you can?
There appears the word "terminated" with the date 4-6-63, which I assume is April 6, 1963?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

"501 Elm is place that processed photo" ... Not sure where that came from

[Steve Thomas]

On 4/11/2019 at 12:42 AM, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Since I'm pretty new here, I realize this may have already been covered.  I did try to search the forum, but I couldn't find anything exactly like this.

If Marina took the gun photos of Oswald on March 31, 1963, where did they have the film developed?   And when?  

If Oswald was still working at Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall then, he could have potentially developed them himself, except I think he lost his job right around then, didn't he? 

A note from Seth Kantor's notebook in the Warren Commission exhibits says in part - 

"Ask Fritz --

1 - Who N.C. preacher who tipped them about the mail-order purchase?

2 - 501 Elm is place that processed photo.  What are details of photo (showing gun & Daily Worker head: "Be Militant")"

501 Elm is the Dal-Tex building, isn't it?  Did they have a photo processing facility in March of 1963 among their offices?  I couldn't find that information.  And where did Mr. Kantor obtain this information about where the photo was allegedly processed?  

 

 

Stephanie,

 

According to the 1961 Dallas Yellow Pages, there were a number of publishers that had their offices at 501 Elm. Here's a couple of copies:

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/303/zoom/?q=501%20Elm&resolution=1&lat=2495.0833288165322&lon=445.6666576330641

 

 

 

 

I didn't see anything under Photographic Developing (pages 276 and 277).

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth806907/m1/297/?q=page%20270

 

Steve Thomas

Edited May 12, 2022 by Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

Surprised this simple yet important question wasn't clearly answered in the WC investigation...or was it?

Marina would have said she didn't have a clue I am sure.

And another frivolous expense by Lee Oswald with money needed for his family's always desperate basic needs situation?

[Adam Johnson]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Surprised this simple yet important question wasn't clearly answered in the WC investigation...or was it?

Marina would have said she didn't have a clue I am sure.

And another frivolous expense by Lee Oswald with money needed for his family's always desperate basic needs situation?

Hi Joe,

You mention something that always brings up an interesting side issue for me regarding LHO during 1963.  Money!!!!

Perhaps others can offer some more exact figures here to what my memory recalls from past reading....

In 63' he worked at Jaggers for $1.75 per hour @ a 38 hour week = $66 before taxes, at Reily Coffee Company he was on $1.35 i think, that's $51 before taxes and at the TSBD a $1.25 per hour for $47 before taxes........So lets say for arguments sake and with taxes coming out he took home an average of $45 per week (across these 3 jobs) Then on top of that there is some evidence he was getting $250 per month from take your pick (the FBI/CIA) as an informant.

So lets do the math while he was employed LHO was taking home $45 per week average at 4.3 weeks per month = $193 plus $250 per month as a Confidential Informant total $443 per month / 4.3 weeks per month = $103 per week

Now here's the rub.........

U.S. Inflation Rate, $103 in 1963 to 2019

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 726.07% higher than average prices throughout 1963. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $103 in 1963 is equivalent in purchasing power to $850.85 in 2019, a difference of $747.85 over 56 years.

So LHO for the few months that he was employed during 1963 was earning OK money as long as he was getting those American Express cheques that R.C. Nagell dropped dime about. 

o

Edited April 11, 2019 by Adam Johnson

[Joe Bauer]

Adam, your speculation regards Oswald's true income being fairly decent versus next to nothing low income depends solely on the premise that he was a paid informant for an agency and $250 a month sounds like a quite high amount for this back then imo.

Don't forget Oswald was also on unemployment at one time or another while married to Marina and the income from this would have been so low about all he could barely afford for shelter would be a room.

Oswald's income versus expenses to provide for his growing family has always been an area of interest for me too.

Oswald was always described as a penny pincher, except when "he" wanted something even if his bare bones family could use the expense for basic needs.

Guns, ammo, cameras, film and film development, magazine subscriptions, mailings, P.O. boxes, pamphlet printing and help in handing these out, trip to Mexico City?

And I've never heard of Lee Oswald ever offering Buell Wesley Frazier a dime for gas, Ruth Paine clearly stated ( resentfully ) she had to spend extra funds to feed Marina and June and never mentioned Lee helping with this expense and same with the expenses the DeMohrenschild's incurred and other White Russians in their care for Marina and baby June.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

If Marina took the gun photos of Oswald on March 31, 1963

"If" statements provide access to interesting paths in some cases...  but not when they contradict fact, then we aren't speculating anymore...  for IF Marina took the photo THEN Oswald would have actually gotten the rifle... which did not happen.  So I'd be wary of "IF" statements that takes a proven FACT and undermines it....

Case in point...

When recounting her one and only time with a camera...she would have known that you look down into the camera AND that the image she was looking at and so perfectly captured would be upside down...

Not only did she not recall how to correctly hold the camera she says nothing of the supreme difficulty it would be doing this for the first and only time in her life...

Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that was towards the end of February, possibly the beginning of March. I can't say exactly. Because I didn't attach any significance to it at the time. That was the only time I took any pictures. I don't know how to take pictures. He gave me a camera and asked me someone should ask me how to photograph, I don't know.

Mr. McDONALD. Did Lee appear to be nervous at all when you took the photograph? 
Mrs. PORTER. No. He was just angry with me because I refused. I was making fun of him. 
Mr. McDONALD. Did you use a tripod at all? 
Mrs. PORTER. Did I use what? 
Mr. McDONALD. A tripod. In other words, was the camera attached to a stand? 
Mrs. PORTER. No. 
Mr. McDONALD. OK. You held it in your hands.
Mrs. PORTER. Yes. 

 

Q. If I show you this camera which was Commission exhibit No. 750 and raise the top part so you can see there is a viewfinder and ask you just to look at the camera, would that refresh your recollection that that was the camera you allegedly took the photographs of Lee with? 
A. Well, I honestly do not remember if I look straight at the object or look down. 
Q. But seeing the camera today you still have no memory of what the camera looked like? 
A. No; I am sorry I am unprofessional about it. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/001/1134/images/img_1134_550_200.jpg

 

[Adam Johnson]

Hi Joe,

“Oswald may have been a petty informer for the Bureau, receiving small sums of money in return for information about left–wing activities in the Dallas–New Orleans area. … Oswald’s possible ties to the Bureau are never mentioned in the Warren Report, but a member of the Commission, Congressman Gerald Ford, revealed in his otherwise undistinguished book, Portrait of an Assassin, that the Commission was informed by Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr and Dallas D.A. Henry Wade that Oswald had been employed by the FBI as an informant since September of 1962; his salary, they revealed, was $200 a month and his FBI code number was 179.” – Jim Garrison

J. Lee Rankin, the Warren Commission’s General Counsel, was told in January 1964 by a reliable source that it was common knowledge among journalists in Texas that Oswald had regularly received $200 per month from the FBI. If Oswald had indeed been secretly employed by a federal agency, the Commission would of course have found it almost impossible to make a convincing case that he had acted alone. Rankin and Earl Warren were determined to silence the rumour. The matter was discussed at an emergency meeting of the Commission on 22 January 1964. Two days later, Rankin and Warren met officials from Texas, who repeated the FBI rumour and mentioned other rumours about a connection between Oswald and the CIA. According to FBI interviews with one of the officials, Rankin swore them to secrecy. At the next meeting of the Warren Commission, on 27 January, Rankin discussed the FBI rumour but did not mention Oswald’s alleged connection with the CIA.

Whatever the basis for these particular rumours, there is strong circumstantial evidence that Oswald had been an undercover agent of the federal government, at least while he was:

• a defector to the Soviet Union between 1959 and 1962, and a duplicitous pro– and anti–Castro activist in New Orleans during the summer of 1963.

There is some evidence to support the proposition that Oswald had been employed by federal agencies in various capacities: 

• A member of the FBI’s office in New Orleans, William Walter, claimed that he had seen an FBI teletype that showed that Oswald had been an informant for that office:NARA RIF no. 180–10076–10413.
• A former CIA payroll officer claimed that it was widely assumed among his CIA colleagues that Oswald had been a full–time employee of the agency: HSCAInterview of James B. Wilcott, 22 March 1978. See also James B. Wilcott, ‘The Assassination of John. F. Kennedy: A CIA Insider’s View,’ Stray Magazine, February 1989, p.38
• Rankin’s memorandum for the files is CIA document 487–195A, Record Copy 201–0289248. A scan in PNG format is available athttp://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60439.
• Transcripts of the Warren Commission’s sessions can be found here:http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/docset/getList.do?docSetId=1007.
• The Secret Service interview of Hudkins, Secret Service Report 767, is part of Waren Commission Document 320.
• For the FBI’s interviews with Hudkins and the Texas officials, see FBI HQ Oswald File 105–82555–100.

 

[Joe Bauer]

16 minutes ago, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Joe,

“Oswald may have been a petty informer for the Bureau, receiving small sums of money in return for information about left–wing activities in the Dallas–New Orleans area. … Oswald’s possible ties to the Bureau are never mentioned in the Warren Report, but a member of the Commission, Congressman Gerald Ford, revealed in his otherwise undistinguished book, Portrait of an Assassin, that the Commission was informed by Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr and Dallas D.A. Henry Wade that Oswald had been employed by the FBI as an informant since September of 1962; his salary, they revealed, was $200 a month and his FBI code number was 179.” – Jim Garrison

J. Lee Rankin, the Warren Commission’s General Counsel, was told in January 1964 by a reliable source that it was common knowledge among journalists in Texas that Oswald had regularly received $200 per month from the FBI. If Oswald had indeed been secretly employed by a federal agency, the Commission would of course have found it almost impossible to make a convincing case that he had acted alone. Rankin and Earl Warren were determined to silence the rumour. The matter was discussed at an emergency meeting of the Commission on 22 January 1964. Two days later, Rankin and Warren met officials from Texas, who repeated the FBI rumour and mentioned other rumours about a connection between Oswald and the CIA. According to FBI interviews with one of the officials, Rankin swore them to secrecy. At the next meeting of the Warren Commission, on 27 January, Rankin discussed the FBI rumour but did not mention Oswald’s alleged connection with the CIA.

Whatever the basis for these particular rumours, there is strong circumstantial evidence that Oswald had been an undercover agent of the federal government, at least while he was:

• a defector to the Soviet Union between 1959 and 1962, and a duplicitous pro– and anti–Castro activist in New Orleans during the summer of 1963.

There is some evidence to support the proposition that Oswald had been employed by federal agencies in various capacities: 

• A member of the FBI’s office in New Orleans, William Walter, claimed that he had seen an FBI teletype that showed that Oswald had been an informant for that office:NARA RIF no. 180–10076–10413.
• A former CIA payroll officer claimed that it was widely assumed among his CIA colleagues that Oswald had been a full–time employee of the agency: HSCAInterview of James B. Wilcott, 22 March 1978. See also James B. Wilcott, ‘The Assassination of John. F. Kennedy: A CIA Insider’s View,’ Stray Magazine, February 1989, p.38
• Rankin’s memorandum for the files is CIA document 487–195A, Record Copy 201–0289248. A scan in PNG format is available athttp://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=60439.
• Transcripts of the Warren Commission’s sessions can be found here:http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/docset/getList.do?docSetId=1007.
• The Secret Service interview of Hudkins, Secret Service Report 767, is part of Waren Commission Document 320.
• For the FBI’s interviews with Hudkins and the Texas officials, see FBI HQ Oswald File 105–82555–100.

 

A lot there.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Adam Johnson said:

Hi Joe,

You mention something that always brings up an interesting side issue for me regarding LHO during 1963.  Money!!!!

Perhaps others can offer some more exact figures here to what my memory recalls from past reading....

In 63' he worked at Jaggers for $1.75 per hour @ a 38 hour week = $66 before taxes, at Reily Coffee Company he was on $1.35 i think, that's $51 before taxes and at the TSBD a $1.25 per hour for $47 before taxes........So lets say for arguments sake and with taxes coming out he took home an average of $45 per week (across these 3 jobs) Then on top of that there is some evidence he was getting $250 per month from take your pick (the FBI/CIA) as an informant.

So lets do the math while he was employed LHO was taking home $45 per week average at 4.3 weeks per month = $193 plus $250 per month as a Confidential Informant total $443 per month / 4.3 weeks per month = $103 per week

Now here's the rub.........

U.S. Inflation Rate, $103 in 1963 to 2019

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, prices in 2019 are 726.07% higher than average prices throughout 1963. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 3.84% per year during this period.

In other words, $103 in 1963 is equivalent in purchasing power to $850.85 in 2019, a difference of $747.85 over 56 years.

So LHO for the few months that he was employed during 1963 was earning OK money as long as he was getting those American Express cheques that R.C. Nagell dropped dime about. 

o

Steve Thomas has 501 Elm Street listed in a reference.  This is the Dal-Tex building.  The book companies were still there if I am recalling correctly in the spring and then moved to the TSBD in the summer of 1963.

Adam,

Thanks for posting this.  I have always thought the Oswalds were doing better than minimum wage jobs with other incomes such as CIA/ONI and FBI and then his work jobs.  If he had to rely on just his salary from work here is what that translates to in modern currency using your figures.

 $1.75 x 7.26 = $12.71 per hour  = $508.40 for 40 hours

$1.35 x 7.26 = $9.80 per hour = $392.00 for 40 hours

$1.25 x 7.26 = $9.08 per hour = $363.20 for 40 hours

In 1963:

$1.75 x 40 = $70

$1.35 x 40 = $54

$1.25 x 40 = $50

That's pretty much minimum wage today.  I don't trust government inflation figures so these amounts are probably higher. 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by John Butler

[Stephanie Goldberg]

So at that point in time, Oswald was working at (and about to be unemployed by) JCS.  He was living at the Neely Street address.  Are either of those addresses considered near the Dal-Tex building?  The Neely Street address doesn't look close to me on a map, considering that Oswald was probably stuck to the bus, taxi or a friend with a car.

The Dal-Tex building may have had a photo developing business there or a camera shop, but we have yet to determine that one way or another.  It is awfully conveniently located to his future employment at the TSBD.  Were there any government offices at 501 Elm in 1963?

I'm not trying to prove that Marina took that photo (or the other gun photos).  I'm not trying to prove that Oswald had the film developed.   I am curious where Seth Kantor acquired that information and why some source told him that they thought that the photos had been developed there. 

And I am curious where Oswald would have acquired the disposable income to have photographs developed, especially if his employment of record was so poorly paid and so sporadic.  Perhaps it was that secret nest egg that funded his trip to Russia?

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Oswald never developed any photographs.  Any evidence he knew how to do so from his varied previous experience?  If I remember right this wasn't his job at Jaggers, Chiles, Stovall.  

Did he use their dark room after hours?  I don't think so.  Where was his?

One of the few believable things from Oswald's few interview notes is his reaction when shown the picture.  To paraphrase, That's not me, yes that's my face, but it's been superimposed onto that body.  Pretty fancy word for a dyslexic lone nut high school dropout that was able to join the Marine's at 17.  Then again he was given U2 radar monitoring clearance to do his job and learned the difficult language of Russian in his spare time.  Convincingly enough to persuade Marina to marry him then to quickly  go back to America despite protocols, greeted with U S aid.

[Steve Thomas]

Stephanie,

 

John Butler is absolutely right. The pages i posted were from a 1961 City Directory and are not helpful in your search for 1963 occupants of the Dal-Tex Bldg.

I should have done a better job in my research.

I did run across one item that might help.

I cannot speak for the accuracy or authority of this web post.

 

Posting by Chris Scally in the JFK Assassination Forum 1/24/18

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=108.0

 

Robert:

Don't know if the following is of any help, but the following is what I have regarding the occupants of the Dal-Tex Building in 1963:

First Floor – Vacant

Second Floor –
•   McKell’s Sportswear Inc. – women’s clothing manufacturer (Hank Stanton, who is seen in the famous Altgens photo sitting on the window ledge on the second floor, worked for – and/or was - the son of the owner of a women’s clothes manufacturing business on second floor. But was it McKell’s?)
•   Stan Lea of Dallas (blouse manufacturer)

Third Floor –
•   Miller-Cupaioli (Clothing). The company changed its name to Miller-Randazzo in 1964. Assassination eye-witnesses Carolyn Walther and Pearl Springer worked for this company.
•   Some sources have indicated that Dallas Uranium & Oil had offices on this floor

Fourth Floor –
Jennifer Juniors Inc. (Zapruder’s company. His office was on this floor). Among the employees were Marilyn Sitzman (receptionist), Lillian Rogers (Zapruder's secretary and PA), Beatrice Hester (Payroll / Shipping Clerk), and Erwin Schwartz, Zapruder's business partner. I have a photo somewhere in my files of Zapruder and some of his staff in January 1957, and there were about 24-30 people in the photo.

Fifth Floor –
•   Edwill's Fashions, Inc.
•   Ralph Leeds Inc.
•   Cupaioldi & Leeds
•   Jennifer Juniors

Sixth Floor –
•   Marilyn Belt Manufacturing Co. (began operations in 1944) - Andy Armstrong worked here for two months in January 1962, before going to work for Jack Ruby in the Carousel Club. Morty (or Marty) Freedman was said to own Marilyn Belt, and the manager was E.L. Nelson. The plant Supervisor was a woman named Virgle Batson
•   Morty Freeman Inc.
•   Dallas Uranium & Oil. (All three companies above were said to have the same shared telephone number)

Seventh Floor –
Mr. Eddie Inc.
MGB Manufacturing
Adaptables Inc.


Hope this helps, but if anyone has any further detail, I, too, would be interesting in hearing about them.

Chris

 

 I apologize for the formatting. I can't figure out how to get rid of it.

 

Steve Thomas

[Stephanie Goldberg]

Steve,

Thanks so much for your help, with the phone directory listings and the above listings!  It's greatly appreciated.  🙂

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

Steve,

Thanks so much for your help, with the phone directory listings and the above listings!  It's greatly appreciated.  🙂

Stephanie,

 

In reading up about the building at 501 Elm, I ran across several references that said the building was more or less devoted to textiles.

( Aside from the Mort Freedman, Dallas Uranium and Oil Company, and Marilyn Belts - who all shared the same telephone number).

There's a woman named Linda Minor, who writes a blog called, Quixotic Joust. She explored the topic of uranium exploration among rich Dallasites here:

http://quixoticjoust.blogspot.com/2011/06/other-uranium-explorers-in-texas-in.html

“Other Uranium Explorers in Texas in the 1950's “

She talks about the shadowy Dallas Uranium and Oil Company in the Dal-Tex building, and more.

How close was D.H. Byrd - owner of the TSBD and President of Byrd Uranium Co. and Byrd Oil Co. to the Dallas Uranium and Oil Co. at 501 Elm? I don't know. It's an interesting question.

 

To go back to your original question; didn't the type of camera used to take the Oswald rifle pictures develop the photos inside the camera itself?

Perhaps David Joseph could answer that question. I know old Polaroid cameras used to develop pictures that way.

Among Oswald's possessions seized by the police after JFK's assassination were a number of rolls of 35mm film - both exposed and unexposed. I had the same question you did. Where did Oswald get those rolls of film developed?

 

Steve Thomas