The back wound

[Eddy Bainbridge]

If you take a used cartridge it presumably resembles a circular shaped punch. If you push it into a persons body can the skin be broken and create a bullet shaped hole? You can see where I am going with this. If alteration to fit rear shots is needed quickly then that looks easier than a scalpel?

Not being a ballistics expert my sense that a bullet wound could be shallow is that it is implausibly unlikely. I am also aware you can't shoot someone through the spine at neck level and miss the spine as a gap doesn't exist.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Eddy Bainbridge
Add

[Cliff Varnell]

SS SA Glenn Bennett wrote two reports describing the back shot 4 inches "down the shoulder" right before the head shot/s.

His account is corroborated by the location of the holes in the clothes, Willis 5 photo, Altgens 6 photo, 15 other T3 back wound witnesses, and 55 other "bang...bang bang" shot sequence witnesses.

Bennett wrote his first report on the AF1 flight back to DC.

In the :alteration" scenario Bennett had to be a major perp.

In my book he's the most corroborated stand-alone witness in the entire case.

Free Glenn Bennett!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Ray Mitcham]

And  

Sibert and O'Neill report

During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr Humes located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.

 

• On the death certificate that Burkley signed, the back wound was located “at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra”.

• The autopsy descriptive sheet, the pathologists’ official diagram of the wounds to the body, placed the back wound in the same location. Burkley signed the sheet, “Verified”.

[Ray Mitcham]

Other back wound witnesses.

Clint Hill

James Jenkins

Paul O’Connor

Edward Reed

Floyd Riebe

Jan Gail Redneck

Diane Boron

 

 

[Tony Krome]

I understand the point of this topic is to establish whether it's possible to mimic the effect of a bullet wound, not to present witness accounts of back wounds.

Yes, I have read an article where a fake bullet track can be created. I had a quick look but can't find it ATM. I don't believe it was done by utilising a bullet cartridge.

[Ron Ecker]

8 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

SS SA Glenn Bennett wrote two reports describing the back shot 4 inches "down the shoulder" right before the head shot/s.

His account is corroborated by the location of the holes in the clothes, Willis 5 photo, Altgens 6 photo, 15 other T3 back wound witnesses, and 55 other "bang...bang bang" shot sequence witnesses.

Bennett wrote his first report on the AF1 flight back to DC.

In the :alteration" scenario Bennett had to be a major perp.

In my book he's the most corroborated stand-alone witness in the entire case.

Free Glenn Bennett!

 

 

 

 

Two things always bugged me about Bennett's description of actually witnessing the creation of the back wound.

For one thing, in one of the photos taken supposedly an instant before JFK is hit in the back, Bennett can be seen in the follow-up car looking at the crowd to the right of the vehicles. Did he suddenly jerk his head around to see JFK shot?

The other thing is, if he did look suddenly toward JFK, he would of course see him get hit, he would see JFK's reaction, but from that distance could he really tell exactly where he got hit? From that distance he could actually see a hole created in JFK's coat? Perhaps, I guess you'd have to be there, but it makes me wonder if Bennett's eyesight was as incredible as Howard Brennan's.

Edit: And why was Bennett the only one in the follow-up car to see exactly where JFK was hit? In Willis 5, Clint Hill for one appears to be looking straight ahead. Bennett isn't, he's looking off at the crowd, in a seemingly studious fashion.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Ron Ecker

[Cliff Varnell]

28 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Two things always bugged me about Bennett's description of actually witnessing the creation of the back wound.

For one thing, in one of the photos taken supposedly an instant before JFK is hit in the back, Bennett can be seen in the follow-up car looking at the crowd to the left of the vehicles.

No, Bennett was clearly looking to the right when he heard the first shot.  In Willis 5 he was seated on the far right, facing the right.

From Bennett's statement 11/23/63:

<quote on, emphasis added>

About thirty minutes after leaving Love Field about 12:25 P.M., the Motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this point the well-wishers numbered but a few; the motorcade continued down this grade enroute to the Trade Mart. At this point I heard what sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I immediately hollered "he's hit" and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-15. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the follow-up car followed.

<quote off>

In the Altgens 6 photo his features are blurred -- consistent with head movement.

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

No, Bennett was clearly looking to the right when he heard the first shot.  In Willis 5 he was seated on the far right, facing the right.

From Bennett's statement 11/23/63:

<quote on, emphasis added>

About thirty minutes after leaving Love Field about 12:25 P.M., the Motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this point the well-wishers numbered but a few; the motorcade continued down this grade enroute to the Trade Mart. At this point I heard what sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I immediately hollered "he's hit" and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-15. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the follow-up car followed.

<quote off>

In the Altgens 6 photo his features are blurred -- consistent with head movement.

 

Yes, when I said Bennett looked to the left I meant that he looked to the right. I often make mistakes like that. Just like my left hand doesn't always know what my right hand is doing.

Just looking at JFK's back in that photo, it makes me wonder more how Bennett could see exactly where JFK got hit in the shoulder. But again, Bennett could be a Howard Brennan wonder.

 

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/more-proof-jfk-was-hit-from-the-front

[Chris Bristow]

The   unreliable Carcano ammo was known to misfire. That could cause  a shallow wound. Multiple witness reports of people hearing firecrackers as opposed to a shockwave and muzzle blast  could also be due to a misfire.           I have noticed  from witness statements that folks in Dallas are especially knowledgeable about guns in general. Many knew the difference between shock wave and muzzle blast.

   I have always wondered how so many described hearing firecrackers, I think it must be around 30 people.          I think it was McClain who said all the pigeons around the TSB flew away when the headshot occurred. Why didn't the first shots startle the birds? Maybe they were misfires.

 

  

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Chris Bristow

[Ron Ecker]

16 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/more-proof-jfk-was-hit-from-the-front

Thanks, that article refers exactly to what I'm saying (though I'm not one of the "promoters of the official story"):

"Promoters of the official story say Bennett could not have seen that shot because he was too far away. But you can see from the pictures that he was not so far.

They also say such a wounding would be too small to see. Wrong again. You can perform your own experiments to see what is visible, and at what distances.

Bennett did not describe in detail what he saw, but such a shot would look like a sudden, inward tenting in the jacket."

So maybe he saw the "inward tenting." But I'm glad I'm not alone in questioning what he could have seen, though I don't necessarily appreciate the company of promoters of the official story.

 

[Pat Speer]

From Patspeer.com, chapter 5b:

 

Isolating Bennett

Glen Bennett sat on the right side of the rear seat of the back-up car. (notes written on 11-22-63, 24H541-542) "We made a left hand turn and then a quick right. The President's auto moved down a slight grade and the crowd was very sparse. At this point I heard a noise that immediately reminded me of a firecracker. I immediately, upon hearing the supposed firecracker, looked at the boss's car. At this exact time I saw a shot that hit the boss about 4 inches down from the right shoulder. A second shoot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head. I immediately hollered to Special Agent Hickey, seated in the same seat, to get the AR-15. I drew my revolver and looked to the rear and to the left--high left--but was unable to see any one person that could have rendered this terrible tragedy." (11-23-63 report, 18H760) “The motorcade entered an intersection and then proceeded down a grade. At this point the well-wishers numbered but a few, the motorcade continued on down this grade en route to the trade mart. At this point I heard what sounded like a firecracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible, At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another firecracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President’s head.  I immediately hollered “he’s hit” and reached for the AR-15 located on the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up the AR-15. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw SA Hickey had the AR-15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the shoots.” (Signed statement in the 5-5-64Secret Service report on the behavior of the presidential detail on the night before the shooting, 18H682) "I arrived at the Press Club about 12:30 A.M. and joined agents at a table...I had two beers, thanked the hostess for the club's hospitality and departed about 1:30 A.M....I arrived at The Cellar about 1:40 A.M. and had two grape fruit drinks. I departed The Cellar at approximately 3:00 A.M. and went directly to the hotel." (Note: Bennett reported for duty at 7:20 A.M.) (1-30-78 interview with HSCA investigator, file # 180-10082-10452) “He remembers hearing what he hoped was a firecracker.He then heard another noise and saw what appeared to be a nick in the back of President Kennedy’s coat below the shoulder. He thought the President had been hit in the back…he believes the first and second shots were close together and then a longer pause before the third shot…he does not recall any agents reacting before the third shot. He believes he called out to no one in particular, after the third shot, 'he's been hit'.… he believes he saw the nick in the President’s coat after the second shot.”  

Analysis: due to Bennett's suggestion, in his 11-23 report, that the President was hit in the back by the second shot, Bennett is a star witness for LPM theorists. He is not deserving of this star status, however. One problem is that he said the bullet struck Kennedy 4 inches below his shoulder—too low to support the single-bullet theory. He also said the limo was heading down a grade when the first shot rang out, and that the crowd was very sparse--a description far more in line with a shot at 190-224 than at 160. He also said the third shot immediately followed the second. While Bennett was later to tell the HSCA that there was more space between the second and third than between the first and second, there is reason to believe this was simply his adjusting his memory to fit the single-assassin scenario. After all, if he’d really witnessed the second bullet striking Kennedy at Z-224 but didn’t yell “he’s hit!” until after the President was shot in the head five seconds later, he would have to have been the worst secret service agent in history. There’s also the problem that the Willis photo at Z-202 shows Bennett still staring to his right. If there’d been a shot at Z-160 and had Bennett immediately turned to his left, as pushed by those claiming Bennett's statement the Rosetta Stone, he should already be looking at Kennedy in the Willis photo. This suggests instead that Bennett heard a shot at 190, not 160. Another problem, as pointed out by researcher Robert Harris, is that the Altgens photo shows Bennett still looking to his right at Z-255. This might make one suspect he heard an early shot, turned to face the President after Z-255, and heard two more shots ring out, associating the first shot with the "nick" in the president's back he first noticed at this time, and the second with the bullet striking Kennedy in the head. This possibility is further supported by the fact that Bennett--in opposition to most every other witness to the president's first being struck--failed to note his subsequent lurch to the left or lean forward. It is also supported by the fact that when speaking to the HSCA's investigator, Bennett backtracked from claiming he saw the bullet hit Kennedy and said instead that he'd noticed a nick in the back of the President's coat. There's another possibility, however. In Bennett's original notes he does not say that he saw the second shot hit the president, or that he heard a shot when he looked at the President and noticed his back wound. He says he saw "a shot that hit the boss". He then writes that "A second shoot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head". This suggests the possibility that when Bennett looked at the President he saw "that a shot had hit the boss" and that he then saw a second shot hit Kennedy in the head. This would mean that he'd heard but two shots, which puts his words in line with fellow Secret Service agents Clint Hill and Paul Landis. Should one doubt that Bennett would change his impressions overnight, and go from hearing two shots to the by-then politically-correct three shots, or that someone else would write his 11-23 report and correct his impression, one should consider that in his original notes, Bennett asserted that he'd yelled to Hickey to get the AR-15 rifle, and that only a day later he reported that he tried to get the rifle himself, but Hickey beat him to it. The notes written before Bennett knew the official story also reflect that he turned to his left after hearing the shots, while the typed up report the next day leaves this out. These changes then reflect either Bennett's confusion or his desire to bring his story in alignment with what he'd been told. Maybe someone typed-up Bennett's 11-23 report based on his notes, and made a few changes. No matter what, we just can't be sure what he saw. 

[John Butler]

Altgens 6 and the Zapruder film are at odds.  I don't see how Altgens 6 or the Zapruder film can be used.  Both are phonies.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by John Butler

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

No matter what, we just can't be sure what he saw. 

Nonsense.  He saw a back wound "about 4 inches down from the right shoulder."

The bullet holes in the clothes are about 4 inches down from the bottom of the collars.

Co-inky-dink?

Nay-sayers whose Pet Theories require a wound at T1 obfuscate the T3 back wound.

 

[Pat Speer]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Altgens 6 and the Zapruder film are at odds.  I don't see how Altgens 6 or the Zapruder film can be used.  Both are phonies.

 

 

 

Oh boy. Take a closer look, will ya? The man with the hard hat (Millican) is at a location in front of the President's limo at Z-160, and behind the location of the back-up car in Altgens. Altgens was thereby taken about five seconds after Z-160. The limos are not in the same place, unless you mean JFK's limo at Z-160 matches up with LBJ's limo in Altgens.