Stephen Kinzer on Frank Olson

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/5/2019 at 9:55 AM, W. Niederhut said:

I really need to read up on the history of MK-ULTRA and Jolly West's work for the Company.

Any advice about good articles and books on the subject?

One chapter from Chaos on Manson by Tom O'Neil is my primary source, quite detailed.  West is mentioned briefly in Lisa Pease's Lie too big to fail.  David Andrews posted a link to an article that mentions him in some detail.  It may have been on the Manson thread that was moved. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[Ron Bulman]

On 9/9/2019 at 7:37 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Someone posted a link to this in another thread and now I can't find it.  Olson is mentioned in it but when it comes to relating MKULTRA to the bigger picture, wow.

https://principia-scientific.org/british-psychiatry-from-eugenics-to-assassination/

W. Niederhut, in case you missed it this article offers a little info on Jolly West on page 37.  For example, "His friend Aldous Huxley suggested to Dr. West during an MK-ultra experiment that West hypnotize his subjects prior to administering LSD, in order to give them "post hypnotic suggestions aimed at orienting the drug induced experience in some desired direction."

[W. Niederhut]

16 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

W. Niederhut, in case you missed it this article offers a little info on Jolly West on page 37.  For example, "His friend Aldous Huxley suggested to Dr. West during an MK-ultra experiment that West hypnotize his subjects prior to administering LSD, in order to give them "post hypnotic suggestions aimed at orienting the drug induced experience in some desired direction."

     Thanks for the references, Ron.  Chaos and A Lie to Big Too Big to Fail are, definitely, on my reading list.  Haven't found anything of substance (or substances) about Jolly West on Google.

     I may call an old med school friend who is on the psychiatry faculty at UCLA to find out what he knows about Jolly West, UCLA Neuropsych, and the CIA (though the topic is hardly an ice breaker.  "Hey, Dan, how have you been?  Long time no see... Dan, it's about Jolly West and MK-Ultra.... ") 🤪

[David Andrews]

Just caught up with Shane O'Sullivan's documentary RFK Must Die, and the hypnosis session with Dr. Bernard Diamond is full of leading statements reinforcing what Sirhan supposedly said about the assassination before police hypnosis.

Persons interested in MKULTRA should also investigate ARTICHOKE, the CIA's programmed assassin effort.

Edited October 8, 2019 by David Andrews

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/2/2019 at 9:37 PM, W. Niederhut said:

Ron,

     I probably know less about the histories of Oswald and Sirhan than most of the people on this forum.  (I still haven't read Lisa Pease's new book about RFK-- although I have read her essays in the Assassinations (Probe magazine) anthology published by DiEugenio, et.al.)

    From what I have read, I do believe that Sirhan was probably a true Manchurian candidate who was medicated and hypnotically "programmed" to fire a gun at RFK.

    My only (peripheral) contact with Dr. Jolyon West happened in late 1982 when I was a 4th year student at Harvard Medical School.  I had interviewed that fall with the residency director at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute, and had a bad vibe about the interview.  So, I talked to one of my faculty advisers at HMS, Dr. Leon Eisenberg, about my iffy interview at UCLA.  Eisenberg picked up his phone, right there and then, and called "Jolly West," the Chairman of Psychiatry at UCLA.  He and "Jolly" chatted amicably for a few minutes.  After hanging up the phone, Eisenberg looked at me and said, "You're in."   

     At the time, the only thing I knew about "Jolly West" was that he had a weird name, and was Chairman of Psychiatry at UCLA. (I decided that year over the Christmas break to come back home to Denver for my residency training, instead of going out to UCLA-- a decision that I have second guessed for the past 36 years.)

W., your having West approve you as "in" at UCLA is fascinating.  You really need to read at least Chapter 11 of Tom O'Neill's Chaos.  I don't want to get this thread moved like the one on the book was but he relates to Ruby - JFK.

The author was looking for info on West in relation to Manson and discovered his previously ignored files, 200 boxes, in the basement of the UCLA library.  He spent two months digging.  "And then Jolly West happened."

Which led him where he didn't want to go, the JFK assassination via Jack Ruby.  

West tried to interject himself immediately (while at OU) but was rebuffed by Judge Joe Brown.  When Ruby was convicted he fired his former lawyers for the appeal.  But retained one of them, Attorney and Dr. Hubert Smith.  Who immediately brought in Dr. Jolly West.  "Nearly a half dozen psychiatrists had found him (Ruby) compos mentis."  At this point.

"West emerged from Ruby's cell (alone with him) to announce the previously sane inmate had undergone "an acute psychotic beak" sometime in the preceding forty eight hours ."

'From that day forward, every doctor who examined Ruby made similar diagnoses: he was delusional."

Peculiar ain't it?  The chapter goes much deeper on Jolly.

Given your profession and a personal connection the chapter is worth the price and your time.  Chapter 10 set's the stage for how he discovered it though. 

[W. Niederhut]

On 10/8/2019 at 9:07 PM, Ron Bulman said:

W., your having West approve you as "in" at UCLA is fascinating.  You really need to read at least Chapter 11 of Tom O'Neill's Chaos.  I don't want to get this thread moved like the one on the book was but he relates to Ruby - JFK.

The author was looking for info on West in relation to Manson and discovered his previously ignored files, 200 boxes, in the basement of the UCLA library.  He spent two months digging.  "And then Jolly West happened."

Which led him where he didn't want to go, the JFK assassination via Jack Ruby.  

West tried to interject himself immediately (while at OU) but was rebuffed by Judge Joe Brown.  When Ruby was convicted he fired his former lawyers for the appeal.  But retained one of them, Attorney and Dr. Hubert Smith.  Who immediately brought in Dr. Jolly West.  "Nearly a half dozen psychiatrists had found him (Ruby) compos mentis."  At this point.

"West emerged from Ruby's cell (alone with him) to announce the previously sane inmate had undergone "an acute psychotic beak" sometime in the preceding forty eight hours ."

'From that day forward, every doctor who examined Ruby made similar diagnoses: he was delusional."

Peculiar ain't it?  The chapter goes much deeper on Jolly.

Given your profession and a personal connection the chapter is worth the price and your time.  Chapter 10 set's the stage for how he discovered it though. 

 Ron,

     I read a study many years ago about inpatients at a VA hospital in the 1950s being dosed with amphetamines until they became psychotic-- paranoid, agitated, and experiencing visual hallucinations.  It's the kind of study that would never be permitted nowadays, for obvious reasons.

     But who knows what men like Sidney Gottlieb and Jolly West were doing to study  drug-induced psychoses back in the day?  If they were overdosing human subjects on psychotomimetic drugs, they certainly wouldn't have published papers about it in the scientific community.  West famously overdosed an elephant on LSD, as you mentioned.  Did he do the same to Jack Ruby?  Perhaps.

    I have treated methamphetamine addicts who experienced protracted psychotic symptoms, but they usually clear in a few days (or two to three weeks in one case.)

    I'm buying a copy of Chaos forthwith.

[Ron Bulman]

23 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 Ron,

     I read a study many years ago about inpatients at a VA hospital in the 1950s being dosed with amphetamines until they became psychotic-- paranoid, agitated, and experiencing visual hallucinations.  It's the kind of study that would never be permitted nowadays, for obvious reasons.

     But who knows what men like Sidney Gottlieb and Jolly West were doing to study  drug-induced psychoses back in the day?  If they were overdosing human subjects on psychotomimetic drugs, they certainly wouldn't have published papers about it in the scientific community.  West famously overdosed an elephant on LSD, as you mentioned.  Did he do the same to Jack Ruby?  Perhaps.

    I have treated methamphetamine addicts who experienced protracted psychotic symptoms, but they usually clear in a few days (or two to three weeks in one case.)

    I'm buying a copy of Chaos forthwith.

I think you'll find the rest of the book interesting.  The studies of the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic alone are enlightening for me.  I'll not reveal more about West from the book until you've had a chance to read it.  Other than this, "Stephen Pittel, the forensic psychologist, who worked briefly with West in 1968 and referred to him as "the only benevolent psychopath I ever met". 

[Ron Bulman]

I finally gave up and ordered this book.  I'm cheap, over $20 makes me hesitate as I'm not well funded myself.  The price isn't coming down anytime soon, and I'm interested in MKULTRA.  The obituaries on Gottlieb don't pull many punches, though I still take it with a grain of salt regarding Kinzer's MSM credentials. 

[Anthony Thorne]

Walter Bowart’s OPERATION MIND CONTROL is a major book on MK Ultra, and was originally published around the early 80’s. It fell out of print, then Bowart self-printed a very expanded edition that he circulated privately, which just a few years ago turned up again in scanned PDF form. Someone used that PDF for an unauthorised Amazon edition with a terrible cover, and now the book has reappeared as a pricy Lulu edition. All that noted a PDF of the self-printed version can be found here. It’s worth a look.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/114341667/Operation-Mind-Control-Researcher-s-Edition

The other big book on MK Ultra is John Marks’ THE SEARCH FOR THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, and a PDF of that is here.

https://www.wanttoknow.info/mk/search-manchurian-candidate.pdf

[Ron Bulman]

What we did with MKNAOMI then Bluebird is astounding but where they came from, our co opting of the Nazi and Japanese programs from WWII  is sickening given the horror of their experiments. Freezing people to death to observe at what temperature they quit functioning at various levels then died is a kinder example if possible of some of them.  Thousands of people were expendable, for experimentation.

And this was all less than 100 years ago.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Mike LeFlem reviews the Kinzer book on Gottlieb

 

 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/review-of-stephen-kinzer-poisoner-in-chief-sidney-gottlieb-and-the-cia-search-for-mind-control

-

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Mike LeFlem reviews the Kinzer book on Gottlieb

 

 

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/review-of-stephen-kinzer-poisoner-in-chief-sidney-gottlieb-and-the-cia-search-for-mind-control

-

Just read this review. What a diabolical world we have lived in.

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/1/2019 at 12:35 AM, Anthony Thorne said:

Walter Bowart’s OPERATION MIND CONTROL is a major book on MK Ultra, and was originally published around the early 80’s. It fell out of print, then Bowart self-printed a very expanded edition that he circulated privately, which just a few years ago turned up again in scanned PDF form. Someone used that PDF for an unauthorised Amazon edition with a terrible cover, and now the book has reappeared as a pricy Lulu edition. All that noted a PDF of the self-printed version can be found here. It’s worth a look.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/114341667/Operation-Mind-Control-Researcher-s-Edition

The other big book on MK Ultra is John Marks’ THE SEARCH FOR THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, and a PDF of that is here.

https://www.wanttoknow.info/mk/search-manchurian-candidate.pdf

Thank you.  The K & K article by LeFlem mentions most of the info was previously available.  I was unaware of that but a lot of it is new to me.  Much of it disturbing.  The background in particular.

Nazi Blome.  "a "tumor farm" where malignant viruses were cultivated... bred infected mosquitos and lice, to be tested on inmates at the Dachau and Buchenwald camps: and produced gas for use in killing thirty-five thousand prisoners in Poland where patients with tuberculosis were being held."    "They had learned how long it takes for human beings to die after exposure to various germs and chemicals, and which toxins kill most efficiently. … Much or their data was unique because it could come only from experiments in which human beings were made to suffer or die."  "Lets hire him."

Then there was "Dr." Ishii of Japan.  "Victims had all died after being exposed to extremes of temperature or after being infected with anthrax, botulism,  bubonic plague , cholera, dysentery, small pox, typhoid, tuberculosis, gangrene or syphilis.  Often the victims were still conscious when their organs were removed, because Ishii believed the best data could be collected at the point of death."

After WWII we, the USA, set these guys up in safehouse/labs to continue their work?  All to combat Communism/ the Cold War.  

Edited November 6, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[David Andrews]

15 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thank you.  The K & K article by LeFlem mentions most of the info was previously available.  I was unaware of that but a lot of it is new to me.  Much of it disturbing.  The background in particular.

Nazi Blome.  "a "tumor farm" where malignant viruses were cultivated... bred infected mosquitos and lice, to be tested on inmates at the Dachau and Buchenwald camps: and produced gas for use in killing thirty-five thousand prisoners in Poland where patients with tuberculosis were being held."    "They had learned how long it takes for human beings to die after exposure to various germs and chemicals, and which toxins kill most efficiently. … Much or their data was unique because it could come only from experiments in which human beings were made to suffer or die."  "Lets hire him."

Then there was "Dr." Ishii of Japan.  "Victims had all died after being exposed to extremes of temperature or after being infected with anthrax, botulism,  bubonic plague , cholera, dysentery, small pox, typhoid, tuberculosis, gangrene or syphilis.  Often the victims were still conscious when their organs were removed, because Ishii believed the best data could be collected at the point of death."

After WWII we, the USA, set these guys up in safehouse/labs to continue their work?  All to combat Communism/ the Cold War.  

See what can happen in nations with black budgets for covert work and no legislative oversight?

Our adoption of these scientists and their data is just an extension of what we did with the German missile and intelligence programs.  I suspect that if there had been no Communism, the resurgence of Fascism in Europe and Asia might have been a suitable excuse for Congressional support.

[Anthony Thorne]

There’s an interesting moment in Oliver Stone’s DVD commentary for JFK where - during a discussion of David Ferrie’s involvement with medical research labs - Stone mentions that AIDS is related to the venue, but he wont elaborate further on the commentary track.

I’ve only tentatively looked at that subject, but a decent JFK researcher did write a couple of books on the connection. Donald Scott - who appeared on BlackOpRadio years ago - wrote THE EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE SKULL VALLEY INCIDENT, and AIDS: THE CRIME BEYOND BELIEF. Both examine the emergence of AIDS in the light of exstensive biological research programs that mil/intel groups had been running through the decade prior, and Gibson digs up a congressional discussion from 1969 or thereabouts where a scientist with his hand out for funding notes that they’re working on, and on the verge of creating, a transmissible biological weapon that would attack the immune system in the same way that AIDS later did. The subject is a real can of worms. Even more grim - Michael Meier’s second book on Jonestown notes that the presence of a segregated test camp out in the jungle run by a CIA-affiliated figure with involvement in medical research was the perfect place to test and document the AIDS virus in an isolated fashion prior to the elimination of all the subjects. In Alan Cantwell’s book on AIDS, he reprints flyers showing that a free Hepatitis-shot-for-gay-men program started in San Francisco and a couple of cities in November 1978, right after Jonestown destructed. According to the book, many of the men - or possibly all - who participated and took the shot all later became ill with symptoms of the virus. Scott ties the saga back to a Kissinger proposal on reducing the global population for NatSec reasons - some similar free vacinnation programs were started in Africa, in places that later became AIDS hotspots - and Cantwell observes events domestically in the light of angry public reactions in late 1978 by the right-wing against the gay movement. The whole saga is somewhat mind boggling. Back to MK Ultra, Harvey Milk’s assassination later the same month in San Francisco was carried out by Dan White, a robotically stiff and headstrong cop who some have suspected was an MK Ultra subject carrying out an order. At Jonestown, the murder of Senator Leo Ryan helped begin the destruction of the Hughes-Ryan amendment that was threatening to curtail the activities of the CIA. Dianne Feinstein - in the building when Milk was shot, and who reportedly saw White strolling down the hall - later chaired the Senate Intelligence Committee - allowing her to offer some likely non-existent ‘oversight’ in place of what Ryan, years earlier, had attempted to oversee and control for real. I suspect all the above is just scratching the surface of what the MK-Ultra scientists and intelligence officials were up to through that period. And I’ve barely read enough on the AIDS connection to hold an opinion, other than to wince a little at what I have read.