Mark Zaid, JFK and Trump

[W. Niederhut]

Just saw this today.  Russ Baker's Who What Why website has a new lead story (and interview) this week about Malcolm Nance's new book, The Plot to Betray America.

A lot of interesting historical details about Putin, Trump, Manafort, Ukraine, the Gerasimov Doctrine, and Alexander Dugin.  I haven't read Nance's book, but he is talking about several things that I referenced (above) on this thread.

https://whowhatwhy.org/2019/11/22/from-useful-idiot-to-working-asset/

 

[Dennis Berube]

On 11/25/2019 at 8:35 AM, W. Niederhut said:

To date, all of the emerging facts have strongly supported that theory, and nothing has debunked it-- least of all Trump's crooked conduct in Ukraine.

Have you seen oliver stones film on Ukraine wm? Your espousing directly opposite opinions on the matter, although congruous with MSM talking points. If you have, what is your opinion of it?

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said:

Have you seen oliver stones film on Ukraine wm? Your espousing directly opposite opinions on the matter, although congruous with MSM talking points. If you have, what is your opinion of it?

Dennis,

     I have watched all of Oliver Stone's pre-2014 (Oliver Stone Collection)  films, including his Untold History series, and I have a lot of respect for the guy--especially for the JFK film.   I haven't seen his Putin interviews or his two Ukraine documentaries yet, but I intended to.

    My perceptions of Putin's Russian Federation don't come primarily from the MSM. Far from it.  They come from my direct experiences within the Russian emigre community during the past 25 years. 

    Have you read Dr. Fiona Hill's "definitive" biography of Putin?  Her descriptions of Putin's history sound almost identical to things I have written over the years in correspondence with people in the ROCOR community.  (Much of that material, including Putin's theft of the ROCOR after 2006, is never even mentioned in our MSM.)

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Dennis,

     I have watched all of Oliver Stone's pre-2014 (Oliver Stone Collection)  films, including his Untold History series, and I have a lot of respect for the guy--especially for the JFK film.   I haven't seen his Putin interviews or his two Ukraine documentaries yet, but I intended to.

    My perceptions of Putin's Russian Federation don't come primarily from the MSM. Far from it.  They come from my direct experiences within the Russian emigre community during the past 25 years. 

    Have you read Dr. Fiona Hill's "definitive" biography of Putin?  Her descriptions of Putin's history sound almost identical to things I have written over the years in correspondence with people in the ROCOR community.  (Much of that material, including Putin's theft of the ROCOR after 2006, is never even mentioned in our MSM.)

I wish Stone would school me up on the automatic imposition of Russian Federation citizenship  to Crimean residents pursuant to the so-called treaty of accession between the ’Republic of Crimea’ and the Russian Federation in March 2014. This is the same treaty used to justify the forced expulsion of pro Ukraine Crimeans and Tatars and mandatory conscriptions in the RF military ala Hitler.

Frankly it sounds like Stone's gone all Steven Segal to me.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Bob Ness

[Dennis Berube]

4 hours ago, Bob Ness said:

Frankly it sounds like Stone's gone all Steven Segal to me.

Sorry but ill go with Stone bob. All russians have a mandatory conscription for 12 months. There is nothing even close to Hitler here except the constant US betrayal of Putin going back to the 90s. Like when he promised he wouldnt invade the next country(the US wont expand NATO, etc...) also close to hitler politically is the party that took over ukraine in the western backed overthrow. But blame the russians for everything, its good business. 
 

Us = 800+ bases in over 80 countries

Russia = maybe 35 in 8 countries

I realize as i type this, Its time to let this thread die, way too far off of its topic. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

Here's a fascinating read from this morning's Raw Story-- an interview with GPS Fushion founder Glenn Simpson about his new book, Crime in Progress-- Inside the Steele Dossier and the Fusion GPS Investigation of Donald Trump.

Rachel Maddow said the new book is the most revealing thing she has read, to date, on the Steele Dossier back story.

‘Sex is probably the one thing you can’t blackmail Donald Trump over’: Steele dossier producer discusses Russia’s — and Trump’s — corruption

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/11/sex-is-probably-the-one-thing-you-cant-blackmail-donald-trump-over-steele-dossier-producer-discusses-russias-and-trumps-corruption/

November 27, 2019

[Bob Ness]

4 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

I realize as i type this, Its time to let this thread die, way too far off of its topic.

Yeah still fun though haha.

4 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

Sorry but ill go with Stone bob.

That's fine but I don't think hitching your wagon to Stone's clearly compromised interests are going to be fruitful. To me he looks to be unusually invested in RF propaganda, the subject of which there is no doubt.

4 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

All russians have a mandatory conscription for 12 months.

They're conscripting Crimeans (OWKA Ukrainians) not Russians. Just like Hitler!

4 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

There is nothing even close to Hitler here except the constant US betrayal of Putin going back to the 90s.

 I don't know what you're saying about this. He didn't become President until the 2000s.

 

5 hours ago, Dennis Berube said:

Like when he promised he wouldnt invade the next country(the US wont expand NATO, etc...) also close to hitler politically is the party that took over ukraine in the western backed overthrow. But blame the russians for everything, its good business.

There are a mix of political interests but a cursory look at UN monitoring and reports show that the Maidan uprising was predominately pro-EU civilians in the west who wanted to do away with the corrupt Yanukovich and protested in the square. The Berkut fired on several to break up the protests which gave radical elements in the Ukraine justification for violence. The right wing elements never seriously took hold of political power and that's why we see Zelenskiy today. There's never been a serious counter argument to Russian influence and outright interference in the Ukraine and the Crimean annexation (which was illegal under international law - in spite of the propaganda you'll hear from Stone) is now being duplicated in Donbass as I showed earlier in this thread.  Putin is now giving out passports to provide a pretext for invasion - just like Hitler in Czechoslovakia!!

As I've said earlier in this thread I have sympathies for the Russians - their western borders have been chock full of nuts for millennia - any look at the evolution of European borders for a few hundred years will give you a good idea of what that must be like. But they have also been party to that and their government has outright failed twice in a hundred years! When the allies created NATO after WW2 part of the reason why was because the US had to go over TWICE and shed blood (my family has some there) to keep all of those idiots at bay - it's probably the most violent place on earth - and since the US has been in Europe it has mostly stayed peaceful (Balkans are the exception).

So when you say the US has 800 bases all over the world... yeah I know, but keep in mind that can also (not always) provide stability in areas that have historically been a problem (Europe/Korea). That's more important now because when a country like say, Estonia, can touch off a war it can have nuclear consequences.

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

 There's never been a serious counter argument to Russian influence and outright interference in the Ukraine and the Crimean annexation (which was illegal under international law - in spite of the propaganda you'll hear from Stone) is now being duplicated in Donbass as I showed earlier in this thread.  Putin is now giving out passports to provide a pretext for invasion - just like Hitler in Czechoslovakia!!

Bob - the counter-argument to the proposition that Russia has been distinctly aggressive in Ukraine is that the activity in question was essentially reactive and, it can be argued, prevented a wider crisis and a greater humanitarian disaster.  Ukraine was destabilized by the Maidan putsch and the immediate legitimization of such by the three Anglo NATO countries - US, UK and Canada. Both the putsch and resulting recognition of an unconstitutional regime were a deliberate effort to prevent European mediation and a peaceful resolution. The sniper event which precipitated the putsch came from.a building under control of the right-wing militias.

What were the Russians supposed to do? They had just witnessed a protest movement get egged on by senior American officials leading to the overthrow of the democratically elected government, all playing out in context of steady NATO encroachment across eastern Europe. Why were the US, UK and Canada stirring up trouble right on Russia’s border? Is it your preference that Crimea and the eastern region of Ukraine should have suffered a total war waged until one side or the other could claim victory? Or do you actually think the Russians should have done nothing? I personally believe the NATO anticipation was Russia reacting with an actual full-scale invasion, so that their Cold War 2.0 could be fully engaged with the images of Russian tanks in Kiev enraging the public and manufacturing consent.

You misunderstand the passport issue. Ukraine had been refusing to renew expired passports of persons in the Donbas/Lugansk region, The Russian passports allow these people to travel. There is no intention to annex eastern Ukraine into the Russian Federation. If there was it would have happened some years ago. You don’t seem to understand fraternal ties, and choose to portray matters as sinister. Two million people were displaced by the fighting, and all of them went as refugees to Russia not Ukraine. That alone should demonstrate how off-base your surmises are.

[Cliff Varnell]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:54 AM, Jeff Carter said:

Cliff - if you could describe the supposed “collusion” involving Veselnitskaya or Kilimnik you might then be doing more than blowing hot air.

I have described it -- repeatedly.  You just refuse to acknowledge it.  And chances are you will continue to play Whack-A-Mole on the subject.

On 11/24/2019 at 11:54 AM, Jeff Carter said:

“Collusion” refers to “a secret or illegal cooperation in order to deceive others”, which Mueller specifies for his purpose as coordinating in “election-interference activities”.

These 11 Mueller Report Myths Just Won’t Die. Here’s Why They’re Wrong

https://time.com/5610317/mueller-report-myths-breakdown/

Myth: Mueller found “no collusion.”

Response: Mueller spent almost 200 pages describing “numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign.” He found that “a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” He also found that “a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations” against the Clinton campaign and then released stolen documents.

While Mueller was unable to establish a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians involved in this activity, he made it clear that “[a] statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts.” In fact, Mueller also wrote that the “investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts.”

To find conspiracy, a prosecutor must establish beyond a reasonable doubt the elements of the crime: an agreement between at least two people, to commit a criminal offense and an overt act in furtherance of that agreement. One of the underlying criminal offenses that Mueller reviewed for conspiracy was campaign-finance violations. Mueller found that Trump campaign members Donald Trump Jr., Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner met with Russian nationals in Trump Tower in New York June 2016 for the purpose of receiving disparaging information about Clinton as part of “Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump,” according to an email message arranging the meeting. This meeting did not amount to a criminal offense, in part, because Mueller was unable to establish “willfulness,” that is, that the participants knew that their conduct was illegal. Mueller was also unable to conclude that the information was a “thing of value” that exceeded $25,000, the requirement for campaign finance to be a felony, as opposed to a civil violation of law. But the fact that the conduct did not technically amount to conspiracy does not mean that it was acceptable. Trump campaign members welcomed foreign influence into our election and then compromised themselves with the Russian government by covering it up.

Mueller found other contacts with Russia, such as the sharing of polling data about Midwestern states where Trump later won upset victories, conversations with the Russian ambassador to influence Russia’s response to sanctions imposed by the U.S. government in response to election interference, and communications with Wikileaks after it had received emails stolen by Russia. While none of these acts amounted to the crime of conspiracy, all could be described as “collusion.”  </q>

On 11/24/2019 at 11:54 AM, Jeff Carter said:

He then very clearly and unambiguously states “the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government.”  Can’t be any clearer.

"Does not establish" isn't the same thing as "discredit."

Why you think that it does is bizarre.

On 11/24/2019 at 11:54 AM, Jeff Carter said:

The “key conclusion” which you instead refer is not in fact a conclusion - it is an observation, which itself is essentially meaningless in that the phrase “individuals with ties to the Russian government” is, in the Report, extremely elastic, such that it could describe basically every citizen of the Russian Federation.

Sure, because as every schoolboy and girl knows all citizens of the Russian Federation work closely with the GRU, or can be described as a "Russian government attorney."

On 11/24/2019 at 11:54 AM, Jeff Carter said:

Ovechkin went to the White House after winning the Stanley Cup. Did something sinister happen then? It was a direct contact between Trump and an “agent of the Kremlin”, no? Maybe the quid pro quo was cemented then. “The red dog barks at dawn, comrade.”

Does Ovechkin have a reputation in the NHL as "Alex, the guy from the GRU"? 

That was Kilimnik's rep when he worked for the International Republican Institute -- "Kostya, the guy from the GRU".

 

 

 

[Jeff Carter]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I have described it -- repeatedly.  You just refuse to acknowledge it.  And chances are you will continue to play Whack-A-Mole on the subject.

You haven’t described it because no one has yet described an actual event that fits the description.

 

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

These 11 Mueller Report Myths Just Won’t Die. Here’s Why They’re Wrong

Why are you sourcing Time Magazine? Have you become an Eisenhower Republican? Nothing they try to describe as “collusion” actually fits the description.

 

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That was Kilimnik's rep when he worked for the International Republican Institute -- "Kostya, the guy from the GRU".

Come on, Cliff. Up your game. You are more sophisticated than that, but your partisan bias is leading you astray. “Kostya, the guy from the GRU” does not work for the IRI. Which is the NED. Which is the CIA. That’s like Oswald the Marxist Marine who worked at Atsugi. No one buys that story, and rightfully so. The New York Times reporter - where that quote comes from - at least followed up on that absurdity to have the unnamed source lamely retort  there wasn’t anything of importance happening in the years “Kostya” worked there - except those years coincided with the big push to assure a second Yeltsin term and the later rise of Putin, along with the eastward encroachment of NATO and the colour revolutions in both Georgia and Ukraine. "The guy from the GRU" appears to be a rumour which was encouraged as it added depth to the Ukrainian influence peddling operation..

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Jeff Carter said:

You haven’t described it because no one has yet described an actual event that fits the description.

Whack-A-Mole!

Quote

 

Why are you sourcing Time Magazine? -

Because I've been watching the authors of the article  -- Barbara McQuade and Joyce White Vance -- on MSNBC for a couple of years now.

Barbara McQuade 'Has Become Something of a Celebrity' Explaining Trump Inquiries

http://www.deadlinedetroit.com/articles/18754/barbara_mcquade_has_become_something_of_a_celebrity_by_explaining_trump_inquiries#.Wojs9y-ZOL4

Quote

Have you become an Eisenhower Republican?

As opposed to a serial repeater of Fascist propaganda?

Quote

Nothing they try to describe as “collusion” actually fits the description.

McQuade spent 19 years as a Federal prosecutor.  Vance was the US Attorney for Northern Alabama for 8 years.

What are your legal qualifications, Jeff?

Quote

Come on, Cliff. Up your game. You are more sophisticated than that, but your partisan bias is leading you astray. “Kostya, the guy from the GRU” does not work for the IRI.

So Wikipedia entirely made up his biography?   You need to go on Wiki and clean this stuff up, since you know so much more about Kilimnik's background than anyone else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Kilimnik

Kilimnik was born on April 27, 1970^[5] at Kryvyi Rih, Dnipropetrovsk, Ukraine, Soviet Union.^[6] Fluent in Russian and Ukrainian before his service in the Soviet Army,^[6] he became fluent in Swedish and English as a linguist^[6] at the Military University of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation,^[7][8] which trained interpreters for the Soviet Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU).^[9] He served in the Soviet Army as a translator and worked closely with the Soviet Army's GRU.^[6] He took Russian citizenship after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.^[9] He worked in Sweden as an interpreter for a Russian arms dealer.^[9] In Moscow, Kilimnik then worked for the International Republican Institute (IRI) from 1995 to early 2005.^[6][9] According to anonymous sources, when applying for his position with the IRI, he responded to the question about how he learned English by stating that the "Russian military intelligence" taught him and he became known among Moscow political operatives as "Kostya, the guy from the GRU".^[6] In 1997, he traveled to the United States using a Russian diplomatic passport.^[5] He claims he was dismissed in the early 2000s after the Federal Security Service's chief gave a speech discussing internal private meetings at the Institute.^[9] A former colleague told the FBI that Kilimnik was fired because of his strong links to Russian intelligence services.^[5] </q>

Then there's this from the Mueller Report:

[O]n August 2, 2016, Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort met in New York City with his long-time business associate Konstantin Kilimnik, who the FBI assesses to have ties to Russian intelligence. Kilimnik requested the meeting to deliver in person a peace plan for Ukraine that Manafort acknowledged to the Special Counsel's Office was a "backdoor" way for Russia to control part of eastern Ukraine; both men believed the plan would require candidate Trump's assent to succeed (were he to be elected President). They also discussed the status of the Trump Campaign and Manafort's strategy for winning Democratic votes in Midwestern states. Months before that meeting, Manafort had caused internal polling data to be shared with Kilimnik, and the sharing continued for some period of time after their August meeting.  </q>

You have an interesting double standard, Jeff.  If anyone can be associated with the CIA in any way -- they are suspect. 

But if someone is associated with the GRU -- they're innocent.

Why is that?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Cliff Varnell

[Bob Ness]

8 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

You misunderstand the passport issue. Ukraine had been refusing to renew expired passports of persons in the Donbas/Lugansk region, The Russian passports allow these people to travel. There is no intention to annex eastern Ukraine into the Russian Federation. If there was it would have happened some years ago. You don’t seem to understand fraternal ties, and choose to portray matters as sinister. Two million people were displaced by the fighting, and all of them went as refugees to Russia not Ukraine. That alone should demonstrate how off-base your surmises are.

Right! Sure! They're doing it because their humanitarian spirit demands such selfless sacrifice!

Give me a break.

And their actions were reactive! Another knee slapper Jeff. They reacted to their stooge being thrown out of the country. Were they reacting? Two words Jeff.

Glazyev. Tapes.

Kinda explains a lot but certainly isn't comprehensive. But since you don't supply primary source information - just RT regurge - this should be enough for now.

[Bob Ness]

8 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

The sniper event which precipitated the putsch came from.a building under control of the right-wing militias.

You're presenting this as fact which it most certainly isn't.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Robert Wheeler said:

Quote

 

“Frankly speaking, Balch is heavily tied to U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions in that Balch was his number two lifetime donor (over $140,000) when he was a U.S. Senator, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. In addition, Balch has provided advisors to the Trump campaign, transition, and administration.

“When then-U.S. Senator Sessions was to endorse Donald J. Trump for President on February 28, 2016, according to media reports the rally ‘had originally been scheduled to be held at Black Hall Aerospace off Wall Triana Highway, however after meeting with city and public safety officials, campaign organizers decided to move the venue.’

“Unbelievable! The President almost had one of his earliest and biggest endorsements at a Russian-linked aerospace company run by a Soviet-born immigrant, making Russian helicopter parts, and that uses the Russian language for business transactions. Who made this scheduling decision in 2016?  Who were they trying to please and for what political purpose?

 

It would be great if Niederhut or Bob or any of the other "Free Ukraine" crowd could opine as to why these clear and convincing incidents of collusion are not front and center on the WAPO and NY Times.
 

 

Robert,

You do know, don't you, that Black Hall Aerospace services helicopters from around the world, not just Russian made ones?

What makes you think that the company uses the Russian language for business transactions? I mean, besides those in the company who service their Russian accounts?

 

[Jeff Carter]

14 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

So Wikipedia entirely made up his biography?   You need to go on Wiki and clean this stuff up, since you know so much more about Kilimnik's background than anyone else.

It starts from the simple observation that a known "GRU operative" does not work for the National Endowment for Democracy for ten years, just as a "Marxist Marine" doesn't serve as a radar operator at Atsugi.

Despite their credentials, the reporters you cite are simply repeating spoon-fed information. The only reporter actually doing his job on this issue actually dug up the fact Kliminik was briefing the State Department for years, as the Mueller people well knew even as they deliberately fed a false portrayal to the stenographers.

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/447394-key-figure-that-mueller-report-linked-to-russia-was-a-state-department

(you will gnash your teeth over the reporter, but the information has not been disavowed, just ignored)