There were ten women on the fourth floor when it went down

[Guest]

 

http://www.prayer-man.com/there-were-ten-women-on-the-fourth-floor-when-it-went-down/

Edited January 5, 2020 by Bart Kamp

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

http://www.prayer-man.com/there-were-ten-women-on-the-fourth-floor-when-it-went-down/

Bart,

 

Just speaking architecturally, why do you suppose the SE 6th floor window of the TSBD is so uniquely different from any other window in the building?

Some kind of load bearing purpose maybe?  Aesthetically, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose that I can see.

 

Steve Thomas

[Guest]

Not a clue Steve, I just focused on the employees and  tried to enhance the windows to see if I could see something more.. Nothing more or less.

 

If I had to guess this was done at a later time and just differed from a design p.o.v.

Just found this

In 1898, the Rock Island Plow Company constructed a five story building for its Texas division, the Southern Rock Island Plow Company. In 1901, the building was hit by lightning and nearly burned to the ground. It was rebuilt in 1903 in the Commercial Romanesque Revival style, and expanded to seven stories.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Bart Kamp
add on info

[Joseph McBride]

You can hear on the Dallas police radio on 11/22/63 that

the TSBD is still referred to by some by its former name, "the Sexton Building."

[David Andrews]

6 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bart,

 

Just speaking architecturally, why do you suppose the SE 6th floor window of the TSBD is so uniquely different from any other window in the building?

Some kind of load bearing purpose maybe?  Aesthetically, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose that I can see.

 

Steve Thomas

Just to point out, if it's any help, that the "public" faces of the TSBD, south and east, have the same window arrangement, while the "industrial" faces, north and west, fronting the railroad yard and the loading area, have a different arrangement with fewer windows.  I think the latter two sides are the same design, and the north side doesn't have a window opposite the south side "sniper window."  I think the designer was trying to balance appearance with economy, and I'm not sure if structural elements are represented in the facades.

[Dan Rice]

On 1/5/2020 at 4:20 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Bart,

 

Just speaking architecturally, why do you suppose the SE 6th floor window of the TSBD is so uniquely different from any other window in the building?

Some kind of load bearing purpose maybe?  Aesthetically, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose that I can see.

 

Steve Thomas

I'm not Bart, but, the southwestern-most window on the sixth floor is similar to the southeast window.  The five middle windows seem to give the building an art deco look.

 

Edit:  I didn't see David Andrews' post before I made my post.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Daniel Rice

[Steve Thomas]

On 1/6/2020 at 4:26 PM, Daniel Rice said:

"...the southwestern-most window on the sixth floor is similar to the southeast window.  The five middle windows seem to give the building an art deco look.

Deleted

Thanks,

 

 

Steve Thomas

Edited March 3, 2023 by Steve Thomas

[Pat Speer]

Davis and McCully weren't in the building at the time of the shooting...at least not according to them. I believe them. I mean, if they were gonna fib about such a thing because they were afraid of the authorities it stands to reason they'd also lie about where they thought the shots had come from. But they didn't. They both said they thought the shots had come from west of their position, i..e someplace other than the sniper's nest. 

 

Mrs. Avery Davis (11-23-63 interview with FBI agent Nat Pinkston recounted in an 11-29-63 memo found in the Dallas FBI files at the Weisberg Archives) "On 11/22/63 she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots and did not see anyone with a gun and immediately returned to the building and to the elevator to her fourth floor offices. She does not recall ever having seen Oswald before." (11-23-63 interview recounted in 12-10-63 FBI report, CD7 p.23) “she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3, folder 19, file 6 of Dallas JFK Archive) "She saw the motorcade pass her location. From her location she heard the three shots but thought they came from the railroad to the west." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H642) “I am a caucasian female born April 13 (1916?)...At about 12:15 P.M. on November 22, 1963, I left the depository building and took up a position on one of the lower steps of the building entrance to view the Presidential motorcade as it passed on Elm Street. I recall that Judy McCully...was standing by me, I believe, on my left...A moment after the car in which President John F. Kennedy was riding passed, I heard three explosions. At first I did not realize these explosions were gun shots…I did not know from which direction the shots had come but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street west from where I was standing.” 

Judy McCully (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p. 432) "On November 22, 1963, McCully was watching the Presidential Procession from the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and just after the Presidential Car had passed the building, she heard a noise, which she thought to be a shooting. She did not know from which direction the shot was fired. At that time, she did not observe any suspicious activity on the part of anyone in the Texas School Book Depository Building, or among the persons in front of this building. McCully stated she is not acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and does not recall ever having seen him in the Texas School Book Depository Building." (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 13 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "Miss McCully stated that on November 22, 1963, she and Mrs. Avery Davis were standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository at 12:30 PM, and were watching the Presidential parade. She saw the President's car go by, and as the car proceeded down toward the triple underpass, she heard three shots. The shots sounded like they came from the right side of the building in the arcade... (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H663) “I am a white female, born on August 13, 1943...On November 22, 1963...I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mrs. Charles Davis, also an employee of Scott-Foresman, to watch the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass by the building. As the motorcade passed, I heard some shots fired, but did not know the direction from which they came...Miss McCully advised that when she was previously interviewed by FBI agents on November 24, 1963, she recalls telling them she was standing on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository watching the Presidential motorcade pass by the building; however, she stated she wished to clarify this point by stating she was actually standing on the steps of the main entrance to the building and immediately following the shooting returned to the fourth floor."

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Pat Speer

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Davis and McCully weren't in the building at the time of the shooting...at least not according to them. I believe them. I mean, if they were gonna fib about such a thing because they were afraid of the authorities it stands to reason they'd also lie about where they thought the shots had come from. But they didn't. They both said they thought the shots had come from west of their position, i..e someplace other than the sniper's nest. 

 

Mrs. Avery Davis (11-23-63 interview with FBI agent Nat Pinkston recounted in an 11-29-63 memo found in the Dallas FBI files at the Weisberg Archives) "On 11/22/63 she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots and did not see anyone with a gun and immediately returned to the building and to the elevator to her fourth floor offices. She does not recall ever having seen Oswald before." (11-23-63 interview recounted in 12-10-63 FBI report, CD7 p.23) “she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3, folder 19, file 6 of Dallas JFK Archive) "She saw the motorcade pass her location. From her location she heard the three shots but thought they came from the railroad to the west." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H642) “I am a caucasian female born April 13 (1916?)...At about 12:15 P.M. on November 22, 1963, I left the depository building and took up a position on one of the lower steps of the building entrance to view the Presidential motorcade as it passed on Elm Street. I recall that Judy McCully...was standing by me, I believe, on my left...A moment after the car in which President John F. Kennedy was riding passed, I heard three explosions. At first I did not realize these explosions were gun shots…I did not know from which direction the shots had come but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street west from where I was standing.” 

Judy McCully (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p. 432) "On November 22, 1963, McCully was watching the Presidential Procession from the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and just after the Presidential Car had passed the building, she heard a noise, which she thought to be a shooting. She did not know from which direction the shot was fired. At that time, she did not observe any suspicious activity on the part of anyone in the Texas School Book Depository Building, or among the persons in front of this building. McCully stated she is not acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and does not recall ever having seen him in the Texas School Book Depository Building." (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 13 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "Miss McCully stated that on November 22, 1963, she and Mrs. Avery Davis were standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository at 12:30 PM, and were watching the Presidential parade. She saw the President's car go by, and as the car proceeded down toward the triple underpass, she heard three shots. The shots sounded like they came from the right side of the building in the arcade...Miss McCully advised that when she was previously interviewed by FBI agents on November 24, 1963, she recalls telling them she was standing on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository watching the Presidential motorcade pass by the building; however, she stated she wished to clarify this point by stating she was actually standing on the steps of the main entrance to the building and immediately following the shooting returned to the fourth floor." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H663) “I am a white female, born on August 13, 1943...On November 22, 1963...I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mrs. Charles Davis, also an employee of Scott-Foresman, to watch the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass by the building. As the motorcade passed, I heard some shots fired, but did not know the direction from which they came... 

 

In which case mommy McCully lied to her daughter all those years of the FBI 'advising' her to change her testimony.

Fat chance.

 

Oh and other women from the fourth floor thought the shots came from the west, so as an argument for them to be outside for that is thin, real thin.

This Hosty malarky in the other post I will address soon as well.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Bart Kamp

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

In which case mommy McCully lied to her daughter all those years of the FBI 'advising' her to change her testimony.

Fat chance.

 

Oh and other women from the fourth floor thought the shots came from the west, so as an argument for them to be outside for that is thin, real thin.

This Hosty malarky in the other post I will address soon as well.

But if these women on the fourth floor thought the shots came from the West that would mean the rail road area, maybe even including the grassy knoll.  Not back and to their left.  A couple of floors up.  That doesn't fit the official story either.

[Guest]

Not the point Ron.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

On 1/7/2020 at 2:18 AM, Pat Speer said:

Davis and McCully weren't in the building at the time of the shooting...at least not according to them. I believe them. I mean, if they were gonna fib about such a thing because they were afraid of the authorities it stands to reason they'd also lie about where they thought the shots had come from. But they didn't. They both said they thought the shots had come from west of their position, i..e someplace other than the sniper's nest. 

 

Mrs. Avery Davis (11-23-63 interview with FBI agent Nat Pinkston recounted in an 11-29-63 memo found in the Dallas FBI files at the Weisberg Archives) "On 11/22/63 she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots and did not see anyone with a gun and immediately returned to the building and to the elevator to her fourth floor offices. She does not recall ever having seen Oswald before." (11-23-63 interview recounted in 12-10-63 FBI report, CD7 p.23) “she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3, folder 19, file 6 of Dallas JFK Archive) "She saw the motorcade pass her location. From her location she heard the three shots but thought they came from the railroad to the west." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H642) “I am a caucasian female born April 13 (1916?)...At about 12:15 P.M. on November 22, 1963, I left the depository building and took up a position on one of the lower steps of the building entrance to view the Presidential motorcade as it passed on Elm Street. I recall that Judy McCully...was standing by me, I believe, on my left...A moment after the car in which President John F. Kennedy was riding passed, I heard three explosions. At first I did not realize these explosions were gun shots…I did not know from which direction the shots had come but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street west from where I was standing.” 

Judy McCully (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p. 432) "On November 22, 1963, McCully was watching the Presidential Procession from the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building and just after the Presidential Car had passed the building, she heard a noise, which she thought to be a shooting. She did not know from which direction the shot was fired. At that time, she did not observe any suspicious activity on the part of anyone in the Texas School Book Depository Building, or among the persons in front of this building. McCully stated she is not acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and does not recall ever having seen him in the Texas School Book Depository Building." (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 13 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "Miss McCully stated that on November 22, 1963, she and Mrs. Avery Davis were standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository at 12:30 PM, and were watching the Presidential parade. She saw the President's car go by, and as the car proceeded down toward the triple underpass, she heard three shots. The shots sounded like they came from the right side of the building in the arcade...Miss McCully advised that when she was previously interviewed by FBI agents on November 24, 1963, she recalls telling them she was standing on the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository watching the Presidential motorcade pass by the building; however, she stated she wished to clarify this point by stating she was actually standing on the steps of the main entrance to the building and immediately following the shooting returned to the fourth floor." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H663) “I am a white female, born on August 13, 1943...On November 22, 1963...I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mrs. Charles Davis, also an employee of Scott-Foresman, to watch the motorcade bearing President John F. Kennedy pass by the building. As the motorcade passed, I heard some shots fired, but did not know the direction from which they came... 

 

 

In which case mommy McCully lied to her daughter all those years of the FBI 'advising' her to change her testimony.

Fat chance.

 

 

Bart,

Do you have any ideas as to why the FBI would want Judy McCully to lie about her location at the TSBD?

For others interested in Judy McCully's and Avery Davis's locations during the shooting, Andrej Stancak apparently also has doubts about McCully's location according to her FBI interview. He has her possibly on the TSBD steps.

 

 

[Guest]

I have Stancak on ignore for a good reason Sandy. That drawing is utter rubbish and cannot be backed by any proof only Fetzerian conjecture.

And if you read my article then you'd know why they started to mess around with the women of the 4th fl.

It is all related to Adams' descent.

[Andrej Stancak]

52 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

I have Stancak on ignore for a good reason Sandy.

Maybe Bart will share with us his reason for ignoring me as it utterly escapes me. Did I ever insult or attack any member of the Forum or specifically Bart? I always thought that researchers having a common goal of elucidating Prayer Man's identity could cooperate, each contributing to the common goal with his/her own kind of knowledge and skills.

[Pat Speer]

If you'd read what I posted, Bart, you'd see that McCully corrected her statement about where she was at the time of the shots when speaking to the DPD, not FBI, and that, furthermore, that correction never made it to the WC (at least as far as I can tell). It follows, then, that there was no mass conspiracy to hide her true location at the time of the shooting, or whatever you're implying. Her friend, Davis, moreover, was already on the record saying they were on the front steps when McCully let on that they were on the fourth floor. 

As far as the FBI pressuring her, sure, that rings true. Presumably someone noticed that Davis and McCully had made contradictory statements, and wanted it straightened out. So she did. AFTER she'd already clarified things for the DPD...

(If anyone can post the document in which the WC asked the DPD to interview McCully in February it would be appreciated. It seems apparent that the WC was having problems with the FBI at the time, and decided to go around them by asking the DPD to conduct some interviews on their behalf. It is suspicious, moreover, that some of these interviews ended up getting published in the commission's volumes, but not all of them, and that at least two of the missing interviews, Vickie Adams and Otis Williams, were with witnesses whose statements and/or subsequent statements suggested Oswald did not come down the back stairs.)

 

Victoria Adams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.39) “as the car…was passing, she heard three loud reports which she first thought to be fire crackers…and she believed the sound came from toward the right of the building…After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away. She had not been able to fully observe the President at the exact moment he was shot, inasmuch as her view was partially obstructed. She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs are located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor.” (2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository and around to the front. I started down toward the railroad tracks when an officer stopped me and turned me back." (3-23-64 statement to the FBI, 22H632) “I recall that at about 12:30 PM, just after the car carrying President Kennedy had passed on the street below, I heard three loud reports which I first thought were firecrackers…After the third shot I observed the car carrying President Kennedy speed away.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H386-393) “I watched the motorcade... proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building… from our vantage point we were able to see what the President’s wife was wearing, the roses in the car…Then we heard—then we were obstructed from the view…A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.  It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.”(When asked if she'd walked or ran to the back stairs) "I was running. We were running." (When asked if she saw anyone from when the shots were fired until she reached the ground floor) "Outside of our office employees; no." (2-2-02 interview with Barry Ernest recounted in The Girl On The Stairs, published 2011) "As they rounded the corner, they turned toward our building, waving and smiling. The car continued moving slowly and a tree obstructed my view. That is when I heard what I thought was a firecracker go off. As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car."

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house. He did not look up and immediately went back into the building into his office on the second floor. A few minutes later, Detectives came into the building and he went with a Detective to check the second floor of the building.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK  Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots. Mr. Williams then came back into the building, and went to his office on the second floor. He then went to the fourth floor after hearing that the President had been shot. He used the stairway to go to the fourth floor, but stated that he did not see anyone on the stairway." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “On November 22, 1963, at the time the Presidential motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository, I was standing on the top step against the railing on the east side of the steps in front of the building. I do not recall who was standing at either side of me, but I do know that Mrs. Robert E. Saunders, also an employee of the Texas School Book Depository, viewed the motorcade. Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street. I did not then know that President Kennedy had been shot. I remained momentarily on the steps and then returned inside the building.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass. I entered the building immediately, climbed up the stairs back where the warehouse elevator was which led to the sixth floor and went up to the fourth floor, which was the first one I could see from to see the underpass. After I got up there and saw that nothing was going on on the underpass, I turned around and came back down to the office and called my wife. Soon, while we were talking, people came in, officers rushed in, and I had to get off the phone... I could have gone down the steps while Oswald came down, but he came down on the elevator. Anyway, I walked down the steps but didn't see him or anything.”

Edited January 8, 2020 by Pat Speer