David Josephs Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 29 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: David, if you had ever lived in a barracks in the fifties or sixties you might describe this as light, cherry and private (in other words there was a door)...grin. I'm not taking any position on the pistol but I also have to say things were quite casual in those days, I have been in many homes and apartments with loaded weapons in drawers, on shelves and tables etc. with kids all over the place. I'm not saying its not stupid, we just didn't think much about it, at least down here where I live. True... excuse me for using my 2020 brain to come to 1963 conclusions.... Thankfully I missed the draft... turned 18 in 1980. Still doesn't address the painfully private Oswald and an "open to all" room.... it seems terribly incongruous when the place did have rooms with locks for what appears to be the same $7-$8 per week.... using the 1963 brain again, I realize many homes were just left open and unlocked... different atmosphere from a time long gone Looking at this list - some pretty sensitive things to be left in an unlocked, unsupervised room... since he went to Irving Thursday he could have removed some of these things knowing he was going to do for what he was eventually charged.... Stopping off on the way with WESLEY would solidify Beckley... Wesley didn't even give him a ride to his Beckley room on HIS way home each night... saving Ozzie bus fare... but that doesn't happen..... Food for thought... the little zippered bag claimed to have traveled to Mexico with Ozzie was Brown... not "Blue and Black"... FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Iacoletti Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 On 3/1/2020 at 1:11 AM, Andrej Stancak said: However, you again avoided the point I am mostly concerned about: where did Lee Oswald change his grey work pants and his light-red (some say maroon) shirt CE151 for the black-looking trousers and dark brown-red (burgundy) shirt CE150? You have a choice: 1. Lee Oswald did change his clothes after he left the Depository and before he was arrested and he could then be considered as Prayer Man candidate, or 2. He left the Depository (route unknown but taking neither the bus-taxi route nor light-coloured Rambler route) and went directly to Brewer's shoe store to wait for Marina and Ruth and children (they never admitted such meeting in Oak Cliff on Friday noon, they rather listened to a broadcast covering President's visit) without changing the clothes he wore on Friday morning. That would mean he had the dark trousers and dark looking shirt on him while at work, and the colours of this garment would exclude the possibility of Oswald being Prayer Man. Andrej, can you explain why Oswald being prayer man necessarily excludes the possibility that Oswald wore CE 150 to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I do agree on your point David, but two things may be in play....first Oswald was notoriously cheap, he really didn't have much money and he really did care for his kids (my beliefs). Back in 1963 eight bucks was a lot of money, only five years later my wife was trying to run our entire weeks groceries for under $20 and doing it most weeks. That was not a choice, I was in the Air Force with one stripe at the time. And Oswald had more than a little attitude...who needs a lock, I don't have anything worth stealing. I don't really claim to be able to get inside his head but DeMohrenschildt (sp) described him as a proto-hippy (they didn't lock their doors either...grin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 6 hours ago, John Iacoletti said: Andrej, can you explain why Oswald being prayer man necessarily excludes the possibility that Oswald wore CE 150 to work? John: I would not like to open the shirt issue in this thread again as the risk is that this becomes another Prayer Man thread. The problem for no-North Beckley scenario is both the shirt and the slacks. Prayer Man wears a shirt and pants which appear as a continuous grey. This would be consistent with CE151 and his grey work pants. The slacks he wore after his arrest look black and most likely are black. Therefore, there is a contrast between his shirt CE150 (burgundy) and his very dark pants in his arrest photographs - there is no such contrast in grey between shirt and pants in Prayer Man. In the context of this thread, it is both the shirt and the slacks which matter because according to no-North Beckley scenario Lee Oswald did not have a chance to change either. However, people mostly argue about the colour of the shirt. Pat Speer has a very good chapter on the shirt problem in his book which is quoted along with my shirt research in this thread (starting page 3): If you look closely on Prayer Man shirt, it has dark spots at some areas. These are consistent, at least so it appears to me, with CE151 but not CE150. Yo will find in that thread also quotes from Sean Murphy's research of Lee Oswald shirt. If you would like to open the shirt question, please continue in the Prayer Man is a Man thread. Please find here the contrast in grey between CE150 and black pants in a photograph of Lee Oswald after his arrest. There is no such contrast in Prayer Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules: "Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. " This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest. As expected. What else can she say? It should bring you or anyone with a little concern to ask why this was never spoken of before this? Seems a large detail to conveniently gloss over. And late arriving detail at that. Why did the room have a lock? Pat is claiming they gave keys to some tenants but not others? How does she know that? Did they charge a deposit for the keys, so a small seven dollar room may cost a dollar more for a key and be $8 Is that the proof you accept? Where are her records on this matter Andrej? She should have more to this than belated story #3. Where is any other tenant saying they stayed in the tiny room sans key? (or even room 1) Where is the original doors with their lock Andrej? Either way it does not make it any more believable anyone would keep a loaded firearm in an unlocked room. I am sure a man who would sit children down to tell them never to hurt another human being would keep a revolver where they might just play or fight, or play fight with the gun... why not keep the rifle in the room? It'd be disassembled and of of course safe as long as a dime was not in proximity... oy vey. Did the Johnson's rooms lock? Did Earlene's room door lock? Doesn't Pat occupy the first room with the same painted glass double doors? Does her door lock now? Why not? Where is that key. Where is the key to the tiny rooms doors? It has a keyhole. Cheers, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: John: I would not like to open the shirt issue in this thread again as the risk is that this becomes another Prayer Man thread. The problem for no-North Beckley scenario is both the shirt and the slacks. Prayer Man wears a shirt and pants which appear as a continuous grey. This would be consistent with CE151 and his grey work pants. The slacks he wore after his arrest look black and most likely are black. Therefore, there is a contrast between his shirt CE150 (burgundy) and his very dark pants in his arrest photographs - there is no such contrast in grey between shirt and pants in Prayer Man. In the context of this thread, it is both the shirt and the slacks which matter because according to no-North Beckley scenario Lee Oswald did not have a chance to change either. However, people mostly argue about the colour of the shirt. Pat Speer has a very good chapter on the shirt problem in his book which is quoted along with my shirt research in this thread (starting page 3): If you look closely on Prayer Man shirt, it has dark spots at some areas. These are consistent, at least so it appears to me, with CE151 but not CE150. Yo will find in that thread also quotes from Sean Murphy's research of Lee Oswald shirt. If you would like to open the shirt question, please continue in the Prayer Man is a Man thread. Please find here the contrast in grey between CE150 and black pants in a photograph of Lee Oswald after his arrest. There is no such contrast in Prayer Man. Yes best for Andrej to not have you turn the page. Page 4 Cheers, Ed Edited March 5, 2020 by Ed LeDoux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 7 hours ago, David Josephs said: True... excuse me for using my 2020 brain to come to 1963 conclusions.... Thankfully I missed the draft... turned 18 in 1980. Still doesn't address the painfully private Oswald and an "open to all" room.... it seems terribly incongruous when the place did have rooms with locks for what appears to be the same $7-$8 per week.... using the 1963 brain again, I realize many homes were just left open and unlocked... different atmosphere from a time long gone Looking at this list - some pretty sensitive things to be left in an unlocked, unsupervised room... since he went to Irving Thursday he could have removed some of these things knowing he was going to do for what he was eventually charged.... Stopping off on the way with WESLEY would solidify Beckley... Wesley didn't even give him a ride to his Beckley room on HIS way home each night... saving Ozzie bus fare... but that doesn't happen..... Food for thought... the little zippered bag claimed to have traveled to Mexico with Ozzie was Brown... not "Blue and Black"... FWIW "38" holster... yep its official... haha And where did that OSWALD sea bag go? Shouldn't Andrej ask Pat a few more pressing questions. Of course Oswald had no key to Beckley. and no receipts or witnesses. But you can take a $ tour. Cheers, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 9 hours ago, David Josephs said: So whenever he was not there - especially weekends - the grandkids had access to his pistol and holster and everything else he had there? You're suggesting that our Oswald would be okay with leaving all of his possessions accessible by anyone wandering into his room - does that sound like our Oswald? Wondering why they would lie about a WINDOW versus a DOOR.... and yes there were a few windows but "light and cheery" ? Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus comes to my immediate attention 12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: Mrs Pat Hall replied through FB Messenger to my information request regarding the keys rules in 1026 North Beckley. Here is how she described the rules: "Thank you for contacting me. Mr. Lee lived in the main house. Therefore he did not have keys to the front door or his room. Those living in the basement or the back house had keys to their own entrance level and a key to their own room. " This should explain why no keys were found on Lee Oswald after his arrest. Was there a curfew, did they get locked out if not in by 11? (I realize the main house was unlocked... all the more reason for renter with stuff to steal to have a lock.) Why where the basement and back garage apts entrances locked? Were the locks changed, and thus the keys too , regularly or ever? What happened when you left and didn't return keys? How many spare keys did the Johnson's have?? Who was their locksmith? Andrej. I hope your lawyer explains this absolves Lee as the space was OPEN to the public... Earlene see's a "man" run in run out and waiting at an inbound bus stop. Sorry but no Grey Eisenhower Jacket was ever claimed by the Johnson's or Earlene. The color they do say is more reminiscent of the arrest shirt than any Eisenhower jacket. Zipper or not. Search Warrant irregularities and this un-secured room are Reasonable Doubt's best friends. I Thank you. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said: Yes best for Andrej to not have you turn the page. Page 4 Cheers, Ed Ed: and what is so special regarding the shirt on Page 4? I pointed to page 3 because this was the page where my research in that thread started and the shirt was discussed in quite many subsequent pages. It was for John to decide if he wants to read or not. Now you see the problem of Lee Oswald's post-arrest pants which appear much darker compared to those worn by Prayer Man. I do not expect that you would admit that your scenario which excludes the possibility of Lee changing his clothes at his room in North Beckley also discards him as Prayer Man candidate. Edited March 5, 2020 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed LeDoux Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 Look up Andrej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ed LeDoux said: Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus comes to my immediate attention Was there a curfew, did they get locked out if not in by 11? (I realize the main house was unlocked... all the more reason for renter with stuff to steal to have a lock.) Why where the basement and back garage apts entrances locked? Were the locks changed, and thus the keys too , regularly or ever? What happened when you left and didn't return keys? How many spare keys did the Johnson's have?? Who was their locksmith? Andrej. I hope your lawyer explains this absolves Lee as the space was OPEN to the public... Earlene see's a "man" run in run out and waiting at an inbound bus stop. Sorry but no Grey Eisenhower Jacket was ever claimed by the Johnson's or Earlene. The color they do say is more reminiscent of the arrest shirt than any Eisenhower jacket. Zipper or not. Search Warrant irregularities and this un-secured room are Reasonable Doubt's best friends. I Thank you. Ed This is called trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) No it is not. For trolling there would be no evidence provided and I think to you and everyone else it is abundantly clear that he has provided plenty to re-examine this whole scenario.. You seem to be of double standards when you demand the strictest evidence but when it comes to your own posts/creations you are grasping at thin air,. A great example is your 3D model with Shelley and Lovelady on those steps when it has been proven and shown they had already left. If you cannot handle the subterfuge of material being put on display here and are rebutted thoroughly then perhaps you ought to take a break and get some fresh air, but do not accuse someone who has submitted plenty and then some to the table of trolling. . James Gordon take note. Edited March 5, 2020 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said: A great example is your 3D model with Shelley and Lovelady on those steps when it has been proven and shown they had already left. Bart: trolling includes responding by asking many questions whereby the number of questions diverges the attention from the thread. It is Ed who should provide answers related to his thesis, not me. Instead, I am contacting Mrs Hall to ask about the keys, I am checking the Dobbs House testimonies, I am pointing to problems which Ed's thesis has for Prayer Man's identity. Sorry if my 3D project has upset you so much, however, it is a worthy effort which already brought results. We know much more about the Depository doorway thanks to the 3D visualisation offered in my work. It is hard to reconcile that you have once sent me some missing dimensions of the doorway which I appreciated very much. So, what went wrong? Is inclusion of Shelley and Lovelady into my Darnell model such as a big sin? What if I had reasons based on hundreds of hours spent with the photographs figuring out what each detail may mean? I can say that the style of communication which both Ed and you show, at least to some forum members and that includes me, is very disappointing. After all, the way you approach other fellow members tells much about what kind of person you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Look up Andrej..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: I would not like to open the shirt issue in this thread again as the risk is that this becomes another Prayer Man thread. The problem for no-North Beckley scenario is both the shirt and the slacks. Andrej.... I have been a STRONG proponent of the shirt/pants change undoing BLEDSOE's testimony and identifying her as a "willing cooperator"... But I've had to rethink my position... The "Brown button-down, grey slacks and other misc men's clothing" - wonder why the MISC is not detailed (reminds me of our Garage crew describing the KEY PHOTOS OF OSWALD IN THE BACKYARD as "Misc Photos"... but they can detail the different colors of completely unimportant items.... kinda feels like that 2nd page of inventory was just cobbled together and things like Underwear, Socks, coats, sweaters, ties (items we've seen in photos of Oswald) are not listed at all... I've also been through every single inventory and item sheet related to Oswald... his clothing is where the inventory item numbering stops, after #455... Please notice that not a single item of clothing is taken from the PAINE residence - suggesting he'd stop on his way with Wesley... but that doesn't happen... The inventory a pink bar of soap... but I still don't see the black pants or black shirt worn in the Backyard Photos... ??? you'd think that would be important...no? As to the last two items added to the BECKLEY PROPERTY list (bottom image - not to mention his leaving his PASSPORT - so much for that quick getaway out of the country, eh?) We are left with having to accept the word of these policemen that any or all of these items were found in the room.... for some reason none of Oswald's belongings were ever photographed in that room, where they were found, BEFORE taken into custody as evidence.... kinda like that paper bag Andrej.... Repeat after me my friend... the situational analysis remains FUBAR to this day cause of irreconcilable authenticity of most of not all the evidence DJ Edited March 5, 2020 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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