The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Matt Allison]

And I would add- remember that the nasty Delta variant emerged in India in October 2020, before anyone was getting vaccinated there. The variant was created on its own, without immune pressure from a vaccine.

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Paul,

     I beg to differ.  Science is science.  It's about epistemology--the scientific method for discerning the truth, through empiricism and a logical analysis of data.  That includes probabilistic analyses of treatment outcomes in relation to control populations.   How does treatment compare statistically with a placebo or no treatment?

    Post-truthers and the anti-vaxxers have tried to present this vaccine debate as a mere polarized difference of opinion between "experts,"  in which, "no one has a monopoly on truth."   It isn't.

    That is why I have consistently tried to post the actual peer-reviewed scientific data in our discussions, with associated statistical analyses.

    Conversely, if you look carefully at what the anti-vaxxers are presenting as evidence, it falls apart under scientific scrutiny.  At worst, it is anecdotal material, devoid of context or controls.  That's why their claims have been consistently debunked by the true experts.

     As an example, what are the risks of COVID infection and stillbirths for vaccinated and un-vaccinated, pregnant women?  Where is that data in the Children's Health Defense Organization article posted above?

     I've been analyzing medical papers for 40 years, and I've even been quoted in the New York Times on a couple of occasions as a critic of Big Pharma.  And I know that pharmaceutical companies have often massaged data and oversold their over-priced products. 

     But the efficacy and relative risk data for the COVID vaccines has been phenomenal, contrary to the constant disinformation coming from the anti-vax community.

     The people dying from COVID are the un-vaccinated, like Meat Loaf. 

     Even Donald Trump admitted that much recently.  (And he got booed for admitting it.)

 

    

Two questions  — should we vaccinate children?

Should the MRNA vaccine formula be made public?

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

How could we imagine that so many people would reject the idea of free speech?!  It was the journalists that used to fight for that. It was the Democrats that wanted to protect that. 
 

It becomes clearer every day that an obsession with safety creates sick minds. That a constant supply of fear impairs the critical thinking faculties of ordinarily logical people. That humans who become tribal in their thinking will follow their leaders or party unquestioningly, no matter how much it compromises their morals, sense of right and wrong, or original beliefs. They just need to hear that it’s for “the greater good” they’ll drink the “kool aid” and follow like it’s a Jim Jones conga line to Jonestown. 
 

What a sad state of affairs and it’s so dangerous. 
 

 

And given this forum:

It was Joe Rogan who sat Oliver Stone down for an extended and fair interview regarding JFK:Revisited.

The WaPo, NYT, Rolling Stone, Daily Beast et al...all ridiculed the movie and conspiracy nuts. 

So...who peddles disinformation? 

[Benjamin Cole]

23 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Two questions  — should we vaccinate children?

Should the MRNA vaccine formula be made public?

Add on:

If international travel bans are considered good anti-C19 policy...should the border with Mexico be sealed? 

If pets can vector C19 viruses...should pets be euthanized? 

[Kirk Gallaway]

6 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that? I see this repeated over and over without attendant facts. With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

Paul:I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that?

I think Matt did answer that question Paul. The delta virus started in India a densely populated country with a huge unvaccinated population. The virus needs people,( though there are some instances of animals) to replicate itself.

 

With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

You lost me there. While considering the problems of overexposure to antibiotics, which is rather a unique problem in the U.S. as I understand it, though we'll say all industrialized nations... Aren't we talking about 2 different things. One is a virus's capability to mutate.  And the other involves resistance to infection.

 The mrna vaccines are not antibiotics , at least as I understand it, but a targeted response.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Kirk Gallaway]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Add on:

If international travel bans are considered good anti-C19 policy...should the border with Mexico be sealed? 

If pets can vector C19 viruses...should pets be euthanized? 

Ben, I know Mexico and the border again. Maybe Mexico would want to keep us out. Mexico's covid death rate is 2342 per million , ranked 29th, and the U.S. is 2736 per million, ranked 18th.

[Benjamin Cole]

Rogan SMEARED As Racist As CNN Goes To War | Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

 

Well, I guess it was on its way. The M$M is smearing Joe Rogan as a racist.

And remember, it was Rogan who hosted Oliver Stone on his show for an extended and fair interview. 

BTW, this show, "Breaking Points" with Enjeti and Ball is consistently pretty good, and free on Youtube.

[Benjamin Cole]

35 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Ben, I know Mexico and the border again. Maybe Mexico would want to keep us out. Mexico's covid death rate is 2342 per million , ranked 29th, and the U.S. is 2736 per million, ranked 18th.

Actually, I grew up near Mexico, and always liked Mexico better than the US. 

But...travel bans were across the board...except for people wanting to bring cheap labor into America....rhyme and reason?

 

[Jeff Carter]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And remember, it was Rogan who hosted Oliver Stone on his show for an extended and fair interview. 

 

That's how I see it too - 

Rogan interviews Oliver Stone for an hour about the current “JFK fact pattern” and within a couple of weeks there’s an orchestrated campaign to shut down his very popular podcast… Has anyone actually established what “covid disinformation” Rogan’s podcast supposedly disseminated? That’s a surprisingly fuzzy part of the story yet the mania to shut him down is based on it.  ***

The inexorably expanding censorship trend began in earnest in the autumn of 2017,  mostly cheer-led by the purported liberal intelligentsia in USA such as the New York Times. From the start, the effort focussed on shutting things down and closing access off, in concert with promoting repetition of establishment narratives through “fact-checkers” and vetted “experts”. Cancelling, de-platforming, de-algorithmization - this is a noted fact of life now for many independent voices as the space for public discourse has remarkably narrowed.

***I see now Britain's Daily Mail covers the "disinformation" broadcasts which aired back in December. The guests involved are both high profile doctors who have been outspoken in challenging covid orthodoxies:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10466285/The-truth-Joe-Rohans-controversial-guests-Dr-Malone-Dr-McCullough.html

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Jeff Carter
additional information

[Douglas Caddy]

[Kirk Gallaway]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Rogan SMEARED As Racist As CNN Goes To War | Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

 

Well, I guess it was on its way. The M$M is smearing Joe Rogan as a racist.

And remember, it was Rogan who hosted Oliver Stone on his show for an extended and fair interview. 

BTW, this show, "Breaking Points" with Enjeti and Ball is consistently pretty good, and free on Youtube.

Guess what? Believe me. Joe Rogan is going to be OK.

This is the problem with this threads "Hollywood Foreign Press", there's just a lot of noise and very little signal. We natives are supposed to get up in arms about all this?  One guy writes a crummy article implying Rogan's a racist.

Also Brazil based Glenn Greenwald's twittersphere. "The liberals are out to censor everything". Never mind about any of the book burning or the N-z- like suppression within  of the Republican party. Sorry Glenn, yes  in your hatred of Hillary Clinton, you ended up being an enabler of a free speech fascist, and people who take that seriously won't let you forget it  Now we have to  hear your endless angst and watch your hair on fire, while you're going to insist. that you are the true speech advocate when it's pretty obvious you're in your own echo chamber and just another of the "Foreign Press Golden Globies".  Instead of doubling down, he could have just admitted he made a mistake, but still make sure that his followers know that he still hates Hilary more than ever. But no!

Gee Jeff, now that at last Canada is in the news,You're actually one of the lead stories on RT! Would you like to weigh in on Trudeau and your truckers demonstrations?  I didn't think so.

Have you "golden globies" ever thought of meditating? Instead of dreaming up the next Pia Zadora? I guess I should thank you that the last few weeks hasn't been  a non stop blow by blow of the U.S./ Ukraine/Russia border, which is 100 times more important but  still we in the U.S. are used to major power saber rattling because we live here.  It appears  the Russians are backing down because of the U.S. huffery, and Ukraine's trying to make it honorable for both sides to de escalate, but we'll see.

  All in a months business, for us on the inside. Don't let the noise from the MSM continue to clutter and then dominate your everyday thoughts!

Edited February 2, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[W. Niederhut]

There are two interesting data-based articles about COVID in the M$M this week, for those around here who are interested in data. 🤥

One is the NYT article about the far higher COVID death rates in the U.S. compared to other wealthy nations, which is largely attributed to non-compliance with basic U.S. public health recommendations.*

The second is a fascinating analysis of Vietnam's remarkable success in managing the pandemic.**

A multi-factorial analysis showed that the decisive factor in Vietnam's success is TRUST in the government and the citizenry. 

The U.S. has money and vaccines but no social cohesion or trust in government health experts. 

On the contrary, Dr. Fauci and his family have been receiving death threats from angry Fox News-watching Trumplicans.

Donald Trump, Fox News, and the anti-vax propagandists deserve a lot of credit for undermining our U.S. response to the pandemic.   It's all about free-dumb.  MAGA! 

 

*  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/02/01/science/covid-deaths-united-states.html

 

**  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/01/trust-lancet-covid-study/

Edited February 2, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Paul Brancato]

13 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Paul:I have a question about your statement that Covid variants are being produced in unvaccinated populations. Are you sure about that?

I think Matt did answer that question Paul. The delta virus started in India a densely populated country with a huge unvaccinated population. The virus needs people,( though there are some instances of animals) to replicate itself.

 

With bacteria and antibiotics it appears that the medicines cause the rise of resistant organisms. 

You lost me there. While considering the problems of overexposure to antibiotics, which is rather a unique problem in the U.S. as I understand it, though we'll say all industrialized nations... Aren't we talking about 2 different things. One is a virus's capability to mutate.  And the other involves resistance to infection.

 The mrna vaccines are not antibiotics , at least as I understand it, but a targeted response.

Kirk - all I’m asking for is proof that the unvaccinated are breeding variants more than the vaccinated. I know viruses and Bacteria are different. Do you think the inventors of bacterial antibiotics envisioned the new resistant strains? Can we at least admit we know nothing of the long term effects of mrna vaccines? I got the second polio vaccine because my very left wing dad read about the dangers of Salk vaccines while the government was touting them. He was proven correct. I’m interested in the Novavax vaccine. Are you curious? Of course I am vaccinated and now boosted on Moderna. But I remain skeptical. Why is it that when it comes to Science, as it’s presented by Pharma, we are all such believers? 

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

There are two interesting data-based articles about COVID in the M$M this week, for those around here who are interested in data. 🤥

One is the NYT article about the far higher COVID death rates in the U.S. compared to other wealthy nations, which is largely attributed to non-compliance with basic U.S. public health recommendations.*

The second is a fascinating analysis of Vietnam's remarkable success in managing the pandemic.**

A multi-factorial analysis showed that the decisive factor in Vietnam's success is TRUST in the government and the citizenry. 

The U.S. has money and vaccines but no social cohesion or trust in government health experts. 

On the contrary, Dr. Fauci and his family have been receiving death threats from angry Fox News-watching Trumplicans.

Donald Trump, Fox News, and the anti-vax propagandists deserve a lot of credit for undermining our U.S. response to the pandemic.   It's all about free-dumb.  MAGA! 

 

*  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/02/01/science/covid-deaths-united-states.html

 

**  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/01/trust-lancet-covid-study/

Seems to me the US deaths are relatively greater than the difference in vaccination rates. Perhaps there are other factors at work. The Red states already had far lower life expectancy before Covid. Our medical system lags behind Europe in many ways. 

[W. Niederhut]

8 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Seems to me the US deaths are relatively greater than the difference in vaccination rates. Perhaps there are other factors at work. The Red states already had far lower life expectancy before Covid. Our medical system lags behind Europe in many ways. 

Paul,

      Vaccination is, obviously, only one aspect of a constructive social response to a pandemic.  Other measures include testing, quarantine, social distancing, and the use of effective masks.

      In that context, let's not forget that Trump held deadly, super spreader MAGA rallies during the pandemic and criticized testing, lock downs, and the use of masks in his Fox News echo chamber.

      My brother-in-law got a phone call from an old college buddy who had attended Trump's MAGA rally in Tulsa in the summer of 2020.  The guy was dying of COVID after the rally, and called Dennis to say goodbye.  True story.