The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I can’t help but notice how lacking in historical depth this discussion is. 

It just can’t believe some of the stances. I am seeing shades of jingoism from people who are normally anti war. 
After all everyone has learned from the JFK era and foreign policy, people are ready to dive in to this feet first like it’s a basic good vs evil story. Man is certainly the most dangerous animal of all. 
 

 

[Matt Allison]

Anti-war? Have you come out against Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Chris?

The is like if in 1976 Germany suddenly proclaimed that Austria really belonged to them, and so they decided to invade and occupy that country.

All the people trying to spin this any other way are just being apologists for a ruthless dictator.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Anti-war? Have you come out against Putin's invasion of Ukraine, Chris?

The is like if in 1976 Germany suddenly proclaimed that Austria really belonged to them, and so they decided to invade and occupy that country.

All the people trying to spin this any other way are just being apologists for a ruthless dictator.

You sound like you’ve got Joe McCarthy in your ear, Matt. 

[Matt Allison]

Any time you want to start making sense instead of lobbing ad hominem, Chris, I'm all ears.

[W. Niederhut]

Are the Putin apologists around here even aware that Vladimir Spiridonovich is openly contemptuous of liberal Western democracy?  

That he openly admires Joseph Stalin?

That his grandfather was Stalin's chef?

That he has murdered Russian journalists and, essentially, turned the Russian media into state-controlled propaganda, similar to the former Soviet era Pravda?

That he has poisoned and imprisoned political opposition leaders?

During Putin's reign, Russia has witnessed the gradual substitution of a new oligarchic, totalitarian police state for the former totalitarian Soviet/KGB police state that collapsed in the early 1990s.  

Putin was in charge of the FSB (KGB) before replacing Yeltsin as President of the Russian Federation.

As for historical depth, I've posted some detailed comments about pre-Soviet Russian and Soviet era history-- the Stalinist purges and Holodomor of the 1930s, Solovki, WWII, Solzhenitsyn, and also Yale historian Timothy Snyder's excellent recent Atlantic article about Putin and the history of the Okhrana, Russian propaganda, and its transmutations after 1917.

The fact that the U.S., Great Britain, and NATO have also engaged in black ops, psy ops, and war crimes doesn't justify Putin's current military campaign to impose a totalitarian police state on Ukraine.

[Matt Allison]

It doesn't get much slimier than carrying water for a murderous dictator.

[Benjamin Cole]

43 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

It doesn't get much slimier than carrying water for a murderous dictator.

Matt A.-

I happen to agree, and with your sentiments regarding Putin. 

Your sentiments also describe Apple, Disney, Walmart, BlackRock, Tesla, GM et al and their relationships with Beijing-CCP-Xi. 

Curiously, Westerners have financed Putin (through fossil fuel purchases) and Xi (through every type of economic relationship imaginable). 

Today, Putin has the headlines. I hope Putin somehow gets a badly bloodied nose from this, without a lot of people dying. A vain hope, probably.

Xi and the CCP are the much larger and long-term concern. 

Even spookier, your elite-leadership class likes the CCP. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Tuesday said he was introducing the conscription of reservists for a special period but ruled out a general mobilisation after Russia announced it was moving troops into eastern Ukraine."-SCMP

Zelensky ruled out a general mobilisation? 

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Are the Putin apologists around here even aware that Vladimir Spiridonovich is openly contemptuous of liberal Western democracy?  

That he openly admires Joseph Stalin?

That his grandfather was Stalin's chef?

That he has murdered Russian journalists and, essentially, turned the Russian media into state-controlled propaganda, similar to the former Soviet era Pravda?

That he has poisoned and imprisoned political opposition leaders?

During Putin's reign, Russia has witnessed the gradual substitution of a new oligarchic, totalitarian police state for the former totalitarian Soviet/KGB police state that collapsed in the early 1990s.  

Putin was in charge of the FSB (KGB) before replacing Yeltsin as President of the Russian Federation.

As for historical depth, I've posted some detailed comments about pre-Soviet Russian and Soviet era history-- the Stalinist purges and Holodomor of the 1930s, Solovki, WWII, Solzhenitsyn, and also Yale historian Timothy Snyder's excellent recent Atlantic article about Putin and the history of the Okhrana, Russian propaganda, and its transmutations after 1917.

The fact that the U.S., Great Britain, and NATO have also engaged in black ops, psy ops, and war crimes doesn't justify Putin's current military campaign to impose a totalitarian police state on Ukraine.

William - your last sentence I would agree with in principle. But it’s a bit of a straw man argument when you characterize the goal of Putin’s military campaign as imposing a totalitarian military state on Ukraine. If he tries to occupy all of it, not just the Russian east, he will reap endless problems. He’s clever, and beleaguered. In a perfect world there would be accurate referendums to decide the fate of the many provinces of Ukraine. Unlikely scenario. What do you think would happen if the largely Russian areas were given a choice? 
Are we all justifying NATO expansion from 1990-2020? Seems like it, barely worth a mention? Putin is the problem not NATO - even Thomas Friedman disagrees with that. 
Is Putin’s move expansionist? Or defensive? I’d say the latter. Think Monroe Doctrine. 

For a country like the US to impose its vision on Europe as being one of restoring Democracy you would expect our own record to exemplify that. As far as I can tell we are slipping into Fascism. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said:

William - your last sentence I would agree with in principle. But it’s a bit of a straw man argument when you characterize the goal of Putin’s military campaign as imposing a totalitarian military state on Ukraine. If he tries to occupy all of it, not just the Russian east, he will reap endless problems. He’s clever, and beleaguered. In a perfect world there would be accurate referendums to decide the fate of the many provinces of Ukraine. Unlikely scenario. What do you think would happen if the largely Russian areas were given a choice? 
Are we all justifying NATO expansion from 1990-2020? Seems like it, barely worth a mention? Putin is the problem not NATO - even Thomas Friedman disagrees with that. 
Is Putin’s move expansionist? Or defensive? I’d say the latter. Think Monroe Doctrine. 

For a country like the US to impose its vision on Europe as being one of restoring Democracy you would expect our own record to exemplify that. As far as I can tell we are slipping into Fascism. 

Paul,

    Ironically, the fascist elements in the U.S. and Europe (e.g., Trump, Orban) have been aligned with Putin!

   As for Russian Federation totalitarianism, don't be deceived.   There is no free press, dissent, or political opposition in the Russian Federation.  It is, essentially, a fascist dictatorship. Putin has even promoted nationalist, Hitler Jugend style Russian youth groups.  And the Soviet era KGB never disappeared.  It simply changed its name.

    I have seen what happens when Putin and the FSB move in.  In the case of the ROCOR, I have even known, or known of, men who were beaten up and/or kidnapped by the FSB.  Resistance is futile, and people are afraid.  It's probably the same in any totalitarian police state.  

    Those FSB guys don't mess around.  I believe they will be as ruthless toward democratic dissenters in Ukraine as they have been toward dissenters in the Russian Federation.  Probably worse.  (BTW, Putin's father served in one of those brutal NKVD "Destruction Brigades" in WWII-- the guys who enforced Communist Party control along the Western Front.)

    As for self-determination and honest plebiscites, I'm all for them.  But that's not what Putin has in mind for Ukraine.  He isn't negotiating or looking for popular approval.  He's invading.

   Honestly, would any of us knowingly support a totalitarian police state like the RF over a democracy?

   What has been the fate of NATO member nations thus far?  Have they been oppressed by the U.S. and NATO?

   If so, why have the former Soviet bloc nations been so desperate to join NATO?

[Joe Bauer]

Trump regards Putin and the Ukraine:

 

"This is genius!"        ??????????????

 

If by tomorrow every sane political, military and academic person in this country isn't fist pounding on the table outraged at Trump's Putin praise ... 

Then we are all in this insanity land together. And to blame for it.

 

 

 

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

For my curiosity Paul, was your Dad living during the fall of the Soviet Union? , and what were his thoughts about it?

[Bob Ness]

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

William - your last sentence I would agree with in principle. But it’s a bit of a straw man argument when you characterize the goal of Putin’s military campaign as imposing a totalitarian military state on Ukraine.

It's safe bet he would at a minimum impose on Ukraine what he demands of his own people. As William has explained better than I could that includes silencing dissent and looting the country for his and his crony's benefit.

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

If he tries to occupy all of it, not just the Russian east, he will reap endless problems. He’s clever, and beleaguered. In a perfect world there would be accurate referendums to decide the fate of the many provinces of Ukraine.

This is probably true. I'm beginning to think he's crazy though. Keep in mind it's the Ethnic Russian East Ukraine, not a province of Russia, complete with its own political process, borders and institutions. Referendums to dissolve a Nation which was legally constituted aren't ordered from Moscow (such as Crimea). There are ethnic groups along the borders of all European countries and often there as the result of previous "boundry adjustments" by the likes of Stalin and Hitler among others. Belarussia used to be a part of Poland and Poland used to have part of Germany and on and on. This suggestion is akin to having Canada decide what they should do with the 50 states - some have "ethnic English-speaking Canadians" you know, like Washington and Minnesota. This is the Jeff Carter solution.

Everyone was happy after WW2 and the Fall, more or less and they haven't dragged us into another of their shooting matches lately, but it looks like they're trying now. NATO stood as a pretty good deterrence, but we'll see how this goes.

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Are we all justifying NATO expansion from 1990-2020? Seems like it, barely worth a mention? Putin is the problem not NATO - even Thomas Friedman disagrees with that. 

NATO expansion didn't come about as the result of the US invading smaller countries or threatening them. Those countries adopted the resolutions put forward politically, mostly democratically although I suppose you could say there was opposition in some countries, by their representatives and voted on by other NATO members.

For the record up until the Crimea invasion I was pretty sympathetic to Russia's border problems but since then have decided Putin's like the rest of them. Fascist dictator in the mold of the old Soviets and model for Trump.

Re Friedman - remember he was the genius who though it was a good idea for Biden to name 6 or 7 democratic Senators to his cabinet and thereby eviscerate the Dem majority in the Senate. Stupefying is the only way to put it. I think that suggestion caused calcification to occur spontaneously in my left lobe and I've never been the same...

[Joe Bauer]

Donald J. Trump:

"THIS IS GENIUS!"     ???????

Regards Putin and his incursion into the Ukraine.

If that statement doesn't take Trump into "aid and comfort to the enemy " national outrage madness territory...what would!?

Future documentaries and especially feature films made about Trump, his life and presidency and beyond will first need to post this disclaimer in bold full screen print:

The following film contains dialogue and scenes that many viewers may find extremely offensive, disturbing and even unbelievable. Yet we the producers assure that what is shown is true and based on well documented research and facts and does not reflect just personal opinion of us and anyone else involved in it's creation.

The guy is certifiable!

Sorry, but this Putin Praise quote by D.J. Trump at this world shaking time is simply "too much" regards his dictator love craziness imo.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 2/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, Denny Zartman said:

If someone uses the term "Democrat Party", all their political opinions can be safely dismissed.

 

If someone uses the term "Democrat Party," I figure they must be a member of the Fox-watching Republic Party.  😋

(Ben insists he's not affiliated with either party. But I think that his use of the term "Democrat Party" betrays him. But then, half the things he says on this thread does that.)