The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Guest]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, the problem with the above is that while hurting Trump it is helping DeSantis.

Sort of like dumping LBJ to get Nixon.

This is true. Anything you take from

Trump goes directly to DiSantis. 

[Mark Knight]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Indeed. 100%

May God bless these patriotic young ladies.

 

 

And THIS is what prevented a constitutional crisis that was planned to subvert our democracy.

The killing of Pelosi and Pence were, in constitutional terms, of small concern. The insurrection planners would have allowed those murders to pass as "collateral damage" had the state-certified Electoral College votes been captured. The murders weren't their priority; usurping our democracy was the priority.

And I'm shocked at how few people realize that.

Or care.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

You’d definitely give yourself a medal

of honour.

 

And you'd definitely make your horse a consul.  🤥

But hey, CB, I thought we were supposed to dispense with the snarky tr-oll-ing around here.

Didn't you get the memo?

Edited July 25, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

11 hours ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Hi everyone. This thread will be pinned here permanently in the Jfk debate, so you wont have to hunt for it.  (Up there with Terms of Use, New registration announcement, etc)

We allowed this thread to stay in the JFK area a few years ago.

It seems to be very popular here, but repeated breaking of rules could result in its removal.

It is critical that you folks self police your posts here. We can't be here 24/7, so  please post with respect to the rules of the Forum.

.

 

Probably the right decision. 

I hope posters stop denigrating each other (public figures are fair game), and try to use JFKA skills to analyze current events. 

The shadow government is far more extensive than in 1963, with far better tools of surveillance, and much larger budgets. 

The shadow government is so confident, it is coming out of the shadows---see all the CIA analysts on CNN or MSNBC, and the merging of the establishment wings of both parties with M$M and the Deep State. 

Stay skeptical on party or M$M narratives. 

And do not wear buffalo-horn hats. 

 

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

4 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

What is escaping MOST of those who are following the January 6th hearings is a little-noticed detail.

The MOST RANSACKED office in the Capitol was the Senate parliamentarian's office. WHY?

Because that's where the insurrectionists supposed they would find the box containing the state-certified Electoral College vote tallies. While the attack itself derailed and delayed the Congressional certification of the state-certified electoral vote totals, had the box been found and absconded with, the Congressional certification of electoral votes could NOT have continued.

THAT would have created a constitutional crisis. There is no provision in the constitution for dealing with missing state-certified electoral votes.

NONE.

So that would leave TWO possible routes to determine the winner of the Presidential election.

ONE would be a ruling by the Trump-heavy Supreme Court.

The other would have been to use the constitution's mechanism for deciding an election that's too close to call.

By a vote of the then-Republican-majority House of Representatives.

THAT is how close America came to having our democracy stolen from us. It all came down to the security of that box of state-certified Electoral College vote tallies. Had the insurrectionists captured and absconded with that, it would have been "game over" for our democracy.

THAT is why Trump failed to call off the insurrectionists until it was certain that the box with the state-certified Electoral College vote tallies was out of the insurrectionists' reach. THEN Trump acted.

And most people MISSED THAT POINT. The MOST IMPORTANT POINT about the insurrection.

Had Trump really believed that Antifa was behind the insurrection, he would have acted with VIGOR, not RIGOR.

Capitol insurrection: Jonathan Karl reveals Senate Parliamentarian office was ransacked the most during riots - EconoTimes

 

Wow, that shows a whole other level of deliberation to the crime!  And believe me Mark, i do care!

But I always wonder. Would there really be such a strict adherence to the Constitution if a bunch of thug insurrectionists broke in and absconded with the physical  box of records? The very act itself is illegal, and the people could be tried for it. Obviously a huge revolt would break out. The majority would not put up with a stolen election to Trump and the Republicans. Ultimately I see the military as being pro the peaceful succession of power. But physically stealing the records by force and and throwing it into other bodies of government would be utter chaos.Of course I don't know what would happen. Could the Secretaries of State meet again with the electors in an emergency session and recertify and send the results to Washington??  I don't know.

Jim:I mean what would have happened if Trump had arrived at the scene?

I honestly think we'd be much better off right now, Trump would have been undeniably physically part of the insurrection and I think the chances of him being in jail right now would be much greater than I believe the prospect is right now that he will go to jail. I think that would have been a massive tactical blunder that perhaps only Trump would be capable of, and I think we'd probably be mopping up little insurrections here and there right now.

I honestly think Trump's a coward and in his stupid judgment , he might think it was better to keep the loyalty of his followers for propagating such a story. Make it look good by trying to grab the wheel, but ultimately give in to make it look like the government "deep state shadow government"  held him back. The irony is a year and a half later , that's part of the narrative that cooks him, or at least ensures he'll never be President again.

I have a speculation about this I haven't heard. I really don't think he had a good idea at all of what he would  do if he got to the Capitol., and as I say, I think ultimately he's a coward and knows the deaths that could ensue would be on his hands. Of course I can understand people can say he's desperate and crazy enough to try it and I wouldn't necessarily put anything beyond him.

But I think ultimately, all this obfuscation and Trump's consideration for running for President again is  to escape going to jail. But his storming the Capitol is just jail  bait material. Despite lots of Democrats and the press talking about how close we came to losing our Democracy. i don't think there's any chance Trump could have stormed the Capitol with the rioters and have any chance of still being President right now. I don't think it would have worked.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Ron Bulman]

53 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

And I'm shocked at how few people realize that.

Or care.

This afternoon I was re reading the last chapter of the author of this thread's recent book Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy: Joseph McBride: 9781939795618: Amazon.com: Books.  This hit home a little harder reading it again.

"Trump had stoked their anger for weeks by spreading the Big Lie (as the media began calling it) that he had won the election in a landslide.  The theory of the big lie was propagated by Hitler in his manifesto, Mien Kampf, when he argued that

in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility, because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters.  but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale faleshoods.  It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.  Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and continue to think that there may be some other explanation.

Hitlers Big Lie theory was potent in the hands of that demagogue who knew how to manipulate the media with ruthless skill.  Trump was less disciplined in carrying out his plans of action, but the former reality-show host's ranting rallies, filled with bald faced lies and propaganda, were abetted by the broadcast media and cable television networks because they were goo for ratings.  His Big Lie about the election being stolen was so outrageous that tens of millions of citizens believed it, and several thousand marched on the Capitol, resulting in the violence that put our vestigial democracy in serious jeopardy." 

So, straight from Mien Kampf to today. 

I shouldn't say this without a source, but I did read somewhere in the last six years or so that the former president basically didn't read, at an elementary or junior high level, no detailed reports, he wanted only short summaries with bullets on key points.  But that at some point he kept a copy of Mien Kampf on his nightstand.

At the moment it seems the Main Stream Media and thus far the January 6th Committee is ignoring this important fact of the invaders targeting the Parliamentarians office and its implications

[Benjamin Cole]

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

This afternoon I was re reading the last chapter of the author of this thread's recent book Political Truth: The Media and the Assassination of President Kennedy: Joseph McBride: 9781939795618: Amazon.com: Books.  This hit home a little harder reading it again.

"Trump had stoked their anger for weeks by spreading the Big Lie (as the media began calling it) that he had won the election in a landslide.  The theory of the big lie was propagated by Hitler in his manifesto, Mien Kampf, when he argued that

in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility, because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters.  but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale faleshoods.  It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.  Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and continue to think that there may be some other explanation.

Hitlers Big Lie theory was potent in the hands of that demagogue who knew how to manipulate the media with ruthless skill.  Trump was less disciplined in carrying out his plans of action, but the former reality-show host's ranting rallies, filled with bald faced lies and propaganda, were abetted by the broadcast media and cable television networks because they were goo for ratings.  His Big Lie about the election being stolen was so outrageous that tens of millions of citizens believed it, and several thousand marched on the Capitol, resulting in the violence that put our vestigial democracy in serious jeopardy." 

So, straight from Mien Kampf to today. 

I shouldn't say this without a source, but I did read somewhere in the last six years or so that the former president basically didn't read, at an elementary or junior high level, no detailed reports, he wanted only short summaries with bullets on key points.  But that at some point he kept a copy of Mien Kampf on his nightstand.

At the moment it seems the Main Stream Media and thus far the January 6th Committee is ignoring this important fact of the invaders targeting the Parliamentarians office and its implications

RB-

Interesting. 

Do you think Ray Epps knew about the parliamentarian's office? 

Epps is seen on 1/5 and then also 1/6 exhorting the crowd go "go into Capitol." In fact, on video, he is seen telling a protestor, moments before the first breach and at the scene, not to carry a knapsack into the Capitol as the protestor might risk arrest---meaning that Epps anticipated occupation of the Capitol and also knew the contents of the other protestor's knapsack. That suggest Epps was part of a conspiracy, if defined as an act involving coordination among two people or more. 

Would it make sense to call Epps to testify under oath on TV at the 1/6 committee, and ask him his affiliations under penalty of perjury, and also ask if the parliamentarian's office was a target, or was the ransacking there just happenstance? 

There is no doubt that Epps was a provocateur. That is beyond dispute, and captured on multiple videos. Seems to me he is an interesting person. 

Clay Shaw successfully claimed not to be a CIA asset. The truth came out later. Years later. 

Stay skeptical. Remember Plato's Cave. 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Matt Allison]

The "shadow government" is all the people we keep finding out are under the influence of, or in the employ of, Vladimir Putin.

Free to read:

https://wapo.st/3b3GXDy

https://wapo.st/3J0UnN2

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

I shouldn't say this without a source, but I did read somewhere in the last six years or so that the former president basically didn't read, at an elementary or junior high level, no detailed reports, he wanted only short summaries with bullets on key points.  But that at some point he kept a copy of Mien Kampf on his nightstand.

At the moment it seems the Main Stream Media and thus far the January 6th Committee is ignoring this important fact of the invaders targeting the Parliamentarians office and its implications

Ron,

     I had posted that story on the forum some time ago, from a September 1990 Vanity Fair interview of Ivana Trump, that Donald Trump used to keep a copy of Hitler's speeches on his nightstand-- which was all the more unusual since Trump was never in the habit of reading any books.

https://www.majorityrules.org/2020/01/donald-trump-and-hitlers-speeches-my-new-order.html

Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler’s speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.

Edited July 25, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[W. Niederhut]

On 8/5/2021 at 9:38 AM, W. Niederhut said:

Steve,

      This is creepy as hell.  More evidence of Trump using the old N-a-z-i propaganda playbook.

      Ivana Trump told Vanity Fair years ago that Donald Trump used to keep a book of Hitler's speeches on his nightstand.

      I was so disturbed by Trumpism a few years ago that I took University of Pennsylvania Professor Thomas Childer's  Great Courses course on the History of the N-a-z-i Empire.

      Some people I know scoffed when I used to point out parallels between Trump's conduct and the propaganda techniques of Hitler and Goebbels-- e.g., vilifying minority groups, fear mongering about foreigners at the border, labeling the opposition press as fake news, "the Lugenspresse," etc.

     Ultimately, as we all know, Hitler was able to quickly destroy a Constitutional democracy and establish a one-party, fascist police state.  By 1933 he was incarcerating opposition politicians and journalists at Dachau.

     I still don't believe it could happen here, but who knows?

Ron,

    I just found my old post from 8/5/21.

After the Gold Rush | Vanity Fair | September 1990

[Matt Allison]

That's the Roy Cohn/Roger Stone influence. Those that seek to propagate evil look to the Third Reich a great deal for inspiration, as they view it as a stunning success up until Hitler's military blunders.

They figure that if they leave out the military screw-up stuff, they've got a fool-proof roadmap to power.

[Ron Bulman]

52 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ron,

    I just found my old post from 8/5/21.

After the Gold Rush | Vanity Fair | September 1990

"Offering his services to negotiate with the Russians".

"What kind of son have I created?"

"Baby Huey!"

"Donald is a believer in the big lie theory"

Edited July 25, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

The "shadow government" is all the people we keep finding out are under the influence of, or in the employ of, Vladimir Putin.

Free to read:

https://wapo.st/3b3GXDy

https://wapo.st/3J0UnN2

Matt-

To be sure, Trump assembled a clique of loyalists at the White House and in his Cabinet (although he abused the loyalty so badly many jumped off the bandwagon). I am not sure how this is different from any Administration. 

OK, so Trump had loyalists around him. JFK, my favorite US President, appointed RFK as AG.  

This Trump clique---surely you are not suggesting the Trump clique had more than 1% of the entrenched power of the Deep State: the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, the allied M$M, allied Congresspeople, endless platoons of lobbyists, fixers, grifters, and related academia and think tanks? 

This is what puzzles me about so many on what broadly could be called "the left": Trump is Billy Barty  next to the Jolly Green Giant of the Deep State.

When Trump is gone...then what? American prosperity returns and the US disassembles the globalist military apparatus? No...we are right back where we were. American becomes Detroit. 

Well, let us hope Trump departs the scene. The topic of Trump is divisive and diversionary.  

Let Trump have his day in court, and accept the results. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 7/23/2022 at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

Why is Ray Epps not called to testify under oath?

 

I told you why. But you won't listen. You believe what you want to believe and disregard the rest.

Please stop reading fake news. The MSM gets some things wrong, but Jan. 6 is not one of them.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I misread Kathy Beckett's post.

 

No, you didn't misread it Joe. This topic is now pinned at the very top of the main JFK page.