Tippit Motive and Rifle Chain of Evidence, looking for some guidance.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is probably correct Dave.  Not much of an inquiry.

Tommy, if you read McBride on the ballistics evidence, or Jim Garrison, that evidence is unconvincing. (Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins, pp 198-201; McBride pp. 252-59)

But for me the capper is this: There is no evidence that Oswald ever picked up that handgun.  And beyond that, there is no evidence that the FBI ever visited Railway Express, the place where it had been allegedly delivered to. (John Armstrong, Harvey and Lee, pp. 481-84).

And let us never forget what happened to the handgun reportedly taken from Oswald.  This is from my article, "The Tippit Case in the New Millenium:" The reader should remember this key fact:Westbrook was not involved in criminal investigations, he was chief of the personnel office.

"When Hill arrived at the station, he placed the gun in Westbrook’s office while he wrote a report. This was so odd that Westbrook himself admitted to the Commission that the gun should not have been there. (WC 7, p. 118) Concerning this point, Hill testified that he had tried to turn over the gun to Lt. T. L. Baker, but for some reason Baker did not accept it at that time. (WC 7, p. 51) It would have been nice if the Commission had asked Baker about the matter and why he did not accept the weapon, but when Baker did testify, he was only asked eight questions, none about this episode. (WC 4, p. 248)"

 

Cheers James,

was there ever a resolution to the shells found at Tippit's murder? Insofar as both explaining where marks had gone and the issue of matching them to the bullets (was that even something forensics could do in '63?). I read on a website devoted to JD Tippit that a "ballistic Expert" Joseph Nichol determined that there were sufficient markers on the slugs to match them to the gun. But after reading Mr Scalise's opinions on the prints, I don't know how much of that claim is based on science, over wishful thinking.

How certain was the officer, (Poe?) that he had marked the casings? Did the fact that the ones that came back unmarked cause him to question his own memory, or was his comment that he had marked them maybe him realising that he had actually forgotten to do so, and was covering his own back?

It's always struck me as a bit odd, that a guy would shoot someone with a revolver, then dump the shells next to the body. I'd always been led to believe that one of the best advantages of using a revolver to murder someone was the fact the incriminating evidence of bullet casings would not be scattered around the place either requiring a time consuming search to retrieve them, or leave them there to link you to the crime.

It's a bit like shooting someone, and before leaving the crime scene remembering to lick your hand and placing it flat on the nearest window in order to leave a nice clear print and some DNA for the cops to find. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Tommy Tomlinson
Edited to correct typos.

[Paul Brancato]

Tommy - highly recommend you read Into the Nightmare. McBride does some original research, especially his interview with Tippit’s father. 
No one has yet suggested the possibility that Tippit was on the Grassy Knoll in uniform when JFK was shot, but his alibis don’t hold up for the period immediately preceding the assassination. Tippit’s post assassination movements suggest someone in a panic. McBride points out that Tippit’s father thought he was looking for Oswald. If so, why? Just a good cop following official dispatch orders? In my opinion Tippit’s death suggests that he knew too much and was killed for that reason by persons unknown. 

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, Tommy Tomlinson said:

Do we know; was the procedure of putting a call out over the radio for an officer to phone in, rather than communicate over the open dispatch system, a common thing? In other words, is it something they would normally recount in an investigative report, or might skip over as a typical event in the day to day routine/

Tommy,

You would be looking for something in the Dispatch Tapes where an officer lets Dispatch know by Signal Code that he is going to be out of the car and unavailable to be reached by the normal communications system; such as:

Signal 50 Going for lunch

Signal 51 Getting some coffee

Signal 58 Routine Investigation

Signal 65 Using the telephone.

You can look over these Dallas Police radio codes here:

https://www.bearcat1.com/radiotx.htm

Steve Thomas

Edited August 7, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Tommy Tomlinson]

19 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Tommy,

You would be looking for something in the Dispatch Tapes where an officer lets Dispatch know by Signal Code that he is going to be out of the car and unavailable to be reached by the normal communications system; such as:

Signal 50 Going for lunch

Signal 51 Getting some coffee

Signal 58 Routine Investigation

Signal 65 Using the telephone.

You can look over these Dallas Police radio codes here:

https://www.bearcat1.com/radiotx.htm

Steve Thomas

Thank you Steve, so it was a common enough occurrence to warrant it's own "Signal" (65).

That said, if it had it's own signal number,  and was therefore regarded as a departmental "Standard Operating Protocol/Procedure" would you not expect that to form a part of a report/testimony?

[Tommy Tomlinson]

46 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Tommy - highly recommend you read Into the Nightmare. McBride does some original research, especially his interview with Tippit’s father. 
No one has yet suggested the possibility that Tippit was on the Grassy Knoll in uniform when JFK was shot, but his alibis don’t hold up for the period immediately preceding the assassination. Tippit’s post assassination movements suggest someone in a panic. McBride points out that Tippit’s father thought he was looking for Oswald. If so, why? Just a good cop following official dispatch orders? In my opinion Tippit’s death suggests that he knew too much and was killed for that reason by persons unknown. 

I agree Paul, Mr McBride's book is on my shopping list as I really want to know more about the man I had previously considered something of a bit part player in the whole affair.

At most I had considered Tippit to be one of Jack Ruby's pocket cops, pushed into doing some shady things on 11/22/63 by virtue of Ruby having leverage over him. I seem to have missed a lot more depth to his involvement.

[James DiEugenio]

The problems with the ballistics in the TIppit case are infamous:

1.  Hill first reported the shells to be from an automatic, whereas the gun ending up in Westbrook's office was a revolver

2. Three bullets in the TIppit case were copper coated Winchester Western,  1 was a lead Remington Peters

3.  Only one bullet was sent to the FBI lab for examination, because of the handgun's modification, it did not match

4. The Commission realized something was up and sent the FBI to Dallas to find the other bullets.  For the same reason, the FBI could not find a match.

5. The shells found at the scene were not recorded on the inventory of evidence set out on the day of the murder.  Even though they had been given to the police that day.

6. It was not until a week later that the police sent the shells to the FBI Lab. These did match the handgun.  But neither Poe's nor Barnes' markings were on the shells.

For Henry Hurt, and the FBI Poe said he marked the shells.  But in McBride's book Leavelle says Poe did not. (McBride, p. 257) Either way this creates a problem in the chain of possession.  Garrison concluded that the shells were fired off once the FBI could not match the first bullet. 

As per the guy you refer to, Nicol, McBride writes that Cunningham's testimony makes Nicol look amateurish and agenda driven.( p. 257). The HSCA agreed with Cunningham.  But they also said that, at that time, one could not match a shell to a bullet. Cunningham agreed. (McBride, p. 258)

As Garrison wrote, the delay in sending all the bullets to the FBI is highly irregular. As is the lack of any notation on the first day for the shells.  I don't know what is worse, no markings on the shells, or Poe's not being there. As I mentioned, there is no proof that Oswald ever picked up that handgun.  Which is quite puzzling.  Therefore, we end up with the fatal flaw in the Warren Commission: there is no chain of possession for the ballistics or the handgun. And as you said, what is the point of unloading a revolver at the scene?

Finally, the coup de grace as far as I am concerned is this: who planted the wallet?  Was it Westbrook, or was it Croy? And why did the cops never do a door to door canvas?  If so they would have found both Higgins and Holan.  Which would have really thrown a wrench into their case against Oswald.

The Tippit case smells.  

[Steve Thomas]

46 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

The problems with the ballistics in the TIppit case are infamous:

5. The shells found at the scene were not recorded on the inventory of evidence set out on the day of the murder.  Even though they had been given to the police that day.

Jim,

Nor, to the best of knowledge, were they dusted for fingerprints; even though Pete Barnes was standing there with a fingerprint kit, dusting Tippits car, and the police were told by an eyewitness (Benevides) that he saw the shooter take those shells and throw them in the bushes.

Steve Thomas

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Just for my own point of clarification, again... I don't recall where I read this, but... is it true that the Tippit murder was the first cop killing in Dallas in a very long time?

I remember reading that somewhere, and don't recall the exact details, but from what I understood; the killing of a Dallas Police Officer was not the sort of thing that would have been treated as anything other than a full blown "All hands on deck" matter... had not the President of the USA been shot down in the previous hour?

 

[James DiEugenio]

Leavelle told McBride that the murder of Kennedy was not a big deal to them.  Probably because so many of them were rightwingers and Klansmen.

But he told Joe, the killing of Tippit was a personal matter to a cop.

Whoever planned the assassination picked one of the best cities to do it in, and the killing of Tippit worked like a time bomb.  I mean with Oswald's wallet at the scene?

[David Josephs]

On 8/7/2020 at 11:15 AM, James DiEugenio said:

For Henry Hurt, and the FBI Poe said he marked the shells.  But in McBride's book Leavelle says Poe did not. (McBride, p. 257) Either way this creates a problem in the chain of possession.  Garrison concluded that the shells were fired off once the FBI could not match the first bullet.

Jim, in my pistol paper I have photos of the Poe marked shell casings...  but it looks more like a B

Page 42..   ce2011 p8 has Poe saying he put JMP

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by David Josephs

[Joe Bauer]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Leavelle told McBride that the murder of Kennedy was not a big deal to them.  Probably because so many of them were rightwingers and Klansmen.

But he told Joe, the killing of Tippit was a personal matter to a cop.

Whoever planned the assassination picked one of the best cities to do it in, and the killing of Tippit worked like a time bomb.  I mean with Oswald's wallet at the scene?

I may be wrong but I recall actually viewing an interview of Leavelle when he said this about the Tippit murder versus the JFK one.

Now, this following more graphic downplaying JFK murder concern comment, also attributed to Leavelle, "may" have been related through another person such as a writer or historian that also interviewed Leavelle or even in response to an interview audience member question:

Paraphrasing ...

Leavelle: that compared to his fellow officer's murder, the JFK murder had no more importance to him than a ni##er killin'.

I never bought into this later age pushed image of Leavelle as some kindly, quaintly colorful and more liberal mellow old grand daddy type.

From the first time I saw Leavelle on TV escorting a wide open Oswald into the DPD basement to his no trial execution, adorned in his perfectly pressed, pleated, cream colored, Colonel Sanders get up ( complete with a big Texas style good ole boy white hat) and in interviews at that time, he came across to me as one mean som bi###.

A guy who looked and sounded like he could fit the tough cop by day, KKK Grand Wizard by night role to a "T" imo.

The most emotionally excited worked up moment of Leavelle's earlier interviews that I remember was when he described how a desperate reporter in the DPD building when Oswald was first brought in, actually squeezed his upper body between press blocking Leavelle's open legs to get a good photo shot of Oswald.

Sadistic grinning Leavelle bragged how he kicked this reporter so hard, the SOB went flying clear across the hallway!  YEAH!

Nice kick Jimmy boy.

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[James DiEugenio]

That is about what he said to McBride Joe about the n@@@@r. killing.

 

David, if that is a B, and I am not sure it is, is it Barnes?

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is about what he said to McBride Joe about the n@@@@r. killing.

 

 

I think I read this from a McBride post? Or Video?

[James DiEugenio]

Its in his book, so he probably posted it.

[Tommy Tomlinson]

Just been watching the "Four Days In November" film from 1964. Some great footage and re-enactments featuring the actual people originally involved. Very certain of Oswald's guilt, but considering when it was made it can be forgiven for believing the official story.

But the thing that piqued my interest is at around the 59 minute mark, Brewer saying (in his own words) that he had heard the radio description of Tippit's killer. He then noticed Oswald and thought he fit the bill.

Am I getting myself confused over descriptions? Did a description (matching the police's description of the Dealey Plaza suspect) of Tippit's killer go out over the public airwaves in such short a space of time, something like 15 minutes?

 

ETA: Not sure what happened with that link... I thought I'd simply posted the link to that film in case anyone hadn't seen it, but it decided to slap the whole screen up there... 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Tommy Tomlinson