New Oliver Stone documentary on JFK assassination to premiere at Cannes

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

 

      As for the issue of Trump's guilt, there is ample evidence that Trump has been inciting right wing violence (and murder) in the U.S. for the past four and a half years-- against minority groups, (Muslim, Hispanic, African American) journalists, and public officials.  IMO, he's a "stochastic" terrorist-- a white supremacist demagogue. 

 

If that were the case, why wasn't there an impeachment much earlier on those grounds? Or even an arrest and prosecution during his presidential run, if I was indeed guilty of racism, incitement or sedition? I presume the frameworks exist within he US constitution. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Benjamin,

      As a physician, I suspected for the past month that Sicknick died of a subdural hematoma (SDH) secondary to a head injury on January 6th.  I'm familiar with cases where people died of SDHes within a day or two of head injuries.  (They usually complain of headaches, confusion, nausea, and vomiting prior to death.) In contrast, epidural bleeds are more rapidly fatal.

      It's somewhat puzzling that Sicknick's autopsy results have still not been released to the public.  Some media reports have mentioned that Sicknick had a "stroke."  Was it hemorrhagic or thrombotic?  We don't know. Others claim that there was no evidence of blunt force trauma.

      As for the issue of Trump's guilt, there is ample evidence that Trump has been inciting right wing violence (and murder) in the U.S. for the past four and a half years-- against minority groups, (Muslim, Hispanic, African American) journalists, and public officials.  IMO, he's a "stochastic" terrorist-- a white supremacist demagogue.  The more prominent cases include the El Paso Walmart Massacre, the Baltimore newspaper murders, the Governor Whitmer kidnapping plot, and the Cesar Sayoc MAGA Bomber case-- all directly inspired by Donald Trump.

     His guilt in the January 6th attack on Congress is a slam dunk.

Right-wing media are spreading conspiracy theories about officer Brian Sicknick's death

Right-wing media are spreading conspiracy theories about officer Brian Sicknick's death | Media Matters for America

Am I the only forum member here who doesn't appreciate people leap-frogging and selectively truncating their detailed posts?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Am I the only forum member here who doesn't appreciate people leap-frogging and selectively truncating their detailed posts?

Not sure. But, I didn't do it remove context or distort the truth. I did it to isolate the line I took exception to, and to remove ambiguity, which I think is fair and logical, don't you? 

[Ron Bulman]

On 2/11/2021 at 8:14 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Stone explained he is having a hard time finding a distributor. Both Netflix and National Geographic turned down the documentary as a result of an unapproved fact check.

“Where are you going to find this information except in this film,” Stone questioned. “If they do a fact check, according to conventional sources, of course it’ll come out like that is not true.”

So MSM is still following the W.C.🐑

Sounds like they want to fact check it against the Warren Report.

[James DiEugenio]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Am I the only forum member here who doesn't appreciate people leap-frogging and selectively truncating their detailed posts?

I just sent you a PM about the officer who was killed.  A doctor friend of mine agrees with you.

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

If that were the case, why wasn't there an impeachment much earlier on those grounds? Or even an arrest and prosecution during his presidential run, if I was indeed guilty of racism, incitement or sedition? I presume the frameworks exist within he US constitution. 

Chris,

Trump's history of stochastic terrorism would have been an impossible case to sell to the Republican Senate.

Look at them!  They wouldn't even convict Trump for his extortion plot involving Ukrainian President Zelensky.

Nor will they convict him of inciting the deadly January 6th attack on the Congress.

Trump could shoot someone on 5th Avenue without losing more than a handful of Republican Senate votes.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

Trump's history of stochastic terrorism would have been an impossible case to sell to the Republican Senate.

Look at them!  They wouldn't even convict Trump for his extortion plot involving Ukrainian President Zelensky.

Nor will they convict him of inciting the deadly January 6th attack on the Congress.

Trump could shoot someone on 5th Avenue without losing more than a handful of Republican Senate votes.

Ok sure, in which case does that make a whole host of Rep. politicians complicit and accountable too. In terms of let's say racism, is there a framework for prosecuting that? If so, I would expect there are Democrats that will be held to task for incitement and racism too. After all racism doesn't just cut one way, we can look at the linguistics used on a case by case basis for comparison and we can also take into account the historical context. I am not very fond of the collective group identity slurs in general, whether they be aimed at blacks, whites, asians, hispanics etc. We seem a long way from the colourless society that MLK & RFK desired, right? There are many politicians that are responsible for that, playing identity politics every election is perhaps the largest factor in this equation. In terms of presidential quid pro quo's, thats almost all of American history, leaning on countries to achieve compliance, that's what the most dominant country on earth does, unfortunately. 

I watched the democrat produced video in regard to the Capitol siege and I was appalled. There must be context given for what happened in the Capitol too, the internet tells me 5 deaths, which is of course too many, and was avoidable. Could there have been more, yes, absolutely. How does it compare to other events in the last 60 years of American history? It's politics and media networks that has put the country on a knife edge of civil war in America and the same tensions are rising in Europe, due to the same game.

I understand, I am not an American, I am not one of those divided, I am not a patriot, just an outsider looking in and seeing both sides. I can imagine many of you feel infinitely passionate about it but, are we really putting humpty back together and healing a nation?  I agree with you on some things wholeheartedly and disagree on others, maybe I should let emotions and passions simmer down. 

[W. Niederhut]

Chris,

       I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in northeast Denver in the 60s and early 70s, so I have a lot of direct experience observing racial profiling and discrimination against black people. It's very real and very prevalent in the U.S.  What has truly appalled me is watching the rearing of the ugly head of white supremacy in the U.S. since Obama's election in 2008!  I naively believed that we had progressed far beyond that level of racism during the 40 years subsequent to the assassination of MLK!

    As for the subject of this thread, I hope that Oliver Stone and James DiEugenio publish an annotated companion volume to the Destiny Betrayed documentary.

    I read the annotated Untold History of the United States by Kuznick and Stone while watching the Showtime series, (three times) and the documentation was terrific.  Yet, the series was criticized in the M$M (even by Sean Wilentz)  as pseudo-history!

Edited February 13, 2021 by W. Niederhut

[Joe Bauer]

Watching the Trump defense closing argument.

Compared to the all star Democratic impeachment manager's dynamic and passion energerized closing argument presentations this Republican one is 3rd string weak and rest home tired.

It's literally verbal and visual Ambien.

Watching golf on TV is more engaging and inspiring.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

       I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in northeast Denver in the 60s and early 70s, so I have a lot of direct experience observing racial profiling and discrimination against black people. It's very real and very prevalent in the U.S.  What has truly appalled me is watching the rearing of the ugly head of white supremacy in the U.S. since Obama's election in 2008!  I naively believed that we had progressed far beyond that level of racism during the 40 years subsequent to the assassination of MLK!

    As for the subject of this thread, I hope that Oliver Stone and James DiEugenio publish an annotated companion volume to the Destiny Betrayed documentary.

    I read the annotated Untold History of the United States by Kuznick and Stone while watching the Showtime series, (three times) and the documentation was terrific.  Yet, the series was criticized in the M$M (even by Sean Wilentz)  as pseudo-history!

I can 100% understand your perspective, it goes on in the UK also, it isn't equality and it's heartbreaking to observe. The psychological effects of it are massive. I have listened to people like Brett Weinstein making the most compelling arguments in regard to the legacy of this behaviour since slavery, Its something I believe. On the other hand you also have statistics from the penal system, which leads to complex questions about how you adequately police communities, how you change society to fix this social issues, so there are no disparities. You then get into what is cultural, which is equally complex, as you can look at other races or communities that have come to America, many of which who are non-white, who don't have the same statistics or issues within the community. In my country at least, things seem a lot better than they are stateside. 

I think you or, the world had progressed a long way since the inception of MLK's dream and really we have in a global sense. But, the regression is huge in recent times and so much of that seems to be down to making everything about racism, now we have generations growing up believing everything is rigged against them. Most of my reading on this comes from Jordan Peterson and psychology, he can be wrong, so can I but, it seems very logical what is happening. He makes a great case about why dividing people by race is extraordinarily dangerous, that there are many lessons in the 20th century that haven't been learnt. My contention is that race, gender and just about anything that can be used to divide nations, is being used, by right and left, political leaders and the media, as passions win votes. But, it's so dangerous. 

P.S. My father is just reading the Untold History of the United States and he has said how extraordinarily detailed it is. I watched the series on Netflix, it was great. He is a good guy. 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Benjamin,

      As a physician, I suspected for the past month that Sicknick died of a subdural hematoma (SDH) secondary to a head injury on January 6th.  I'm familiar with cases where people died of SDHes within a day or two of head injuries.  (They usually complain of headaches, confusion, nausea, and vomiting prior to death.) In contrast, epidural bleeds are more rapidly fatal.

      It's somewhat puzzling that Sicknick's autopsy results have still not been released to the public.  Some media reports have mentioned that Sicknick had a "stroke."  Was it hemorrhagic or thrombotic?  We don't know. Others claim that there was no evidence of blunt force trauma.

      As for the issue of Trump's guilt, there is ample evidence that Trump has been inciting right wing violence (and murder) in the U.S. for the past four and a half years-- against minority groups, (Muslim, Hispanic, African American) journalists, and public officials.  IMO, he's a "stochastic" terrorist-- a white supremacist demagogue.  The more prominent cases include the El Paso Walmart Massacre, the Baltimore newspaper murders, the Governor Whitmer kidnapping plot, and the Cesar Sayoc MAGA Bomber case-- all directly inspired by Donald Trump.

     His guilt in the January 6th attack on Congress is a slam dunk.

Right-wing media are spreading conspiracy theories about officer Brian Sicknick's death

Right-wing media are spreading conspiracy theories about officer Brian Sicknick's death | Media Matters for America

I am not here to defend Trump. You are a doctor, so I will defer to you on medical matters. 

Here is a report that seems balanced on the cause of Sicknick's death, from some street reporters for a local TV station. All possibilities are open. 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/national/who-killed-capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick-capitol-riot/65-b374ba6e-12c4-4f58-aa95-adfd5b11d7ca

My suspicion that Sicknick died of causes unrelated to the Capitol riot, or possibly in reaction to pepper spray, has to do with the reaction of his colleagues. 

In my hometown, if someone killed an LAPD officer, there was dread intent (to put it mildly) on revenge first and then justice. (I was a reporter in LA for a few decades). 

In contrast, Sicknick's brethren on the Capitol force are muted. Something doesn't ring right. There are not showing videos of suspects on TV, asking for IDs from citizens, for example. 

Sicknick's autopsy has not been released, and the body was cremated within days of death. He had complained not of head injuries, but being pepper-sprayed. 

It is puzzling that so many people dropped dead at the Capitol on that day.  

Here is a blurb:

Lethal In Disguise: The Health Hazards Of Pepper Spray-Forbes

Mar 16, 2016

"Some of the best information on the harms of OC (police pepper spray) comes from the ACLU. In their original report, "Pepper Spray Update: More Fatalities, More Questions” the ACLU found 26 deaths after OC spraying in just a two year period—one death per 600 times police used spray. They noted that death was more likely if the victim was also restrained. (The cause of death was not firmly linked to the OC and some of the victims had been using other drugs as well)."

---30---

Well, warping the news to fit a narrative is hardly new---after the JFK assassination, Life magazine reported JFK had a throat entry wound as he had turned around and faced the TSBD before being shot. Life magazine said they knew that, as they had viewed the Zapruder film (which the readers back then could not). 

On December 6, 1963, Life magazine published an article by Peter’s Mandel’s father, Paul Mandel, relating to the Kennedy assassination, which had taken place on November 22, 1963. In that article, Paul Mandel wrote the following:

"The doctor said one bullet passed from back to front on the right side of the President’s head. But the other, the doctor reported, entered the President’s throat from the front and then lodged in his body. Since by this time the limousine was 50 yards past Oswald and the President’s back was turned almost directly to the sniper, it has been hard to understand how the bullet could enter the front of his throat. Hence the recurring guess that there was a second sniper somewhere else. But the 8mm film shows the President turning his body far around to the right as he waves to someone in the crowd. His throat is exposed – toward the sniper’s nest – just before he clutches it."

That was Life magazine, one of the pillars of establishment journalism. 

Keep an open mind. 

 

[Ron Bulman]

On 2/12/2021 at 12:39 AM, Ron Bulman said:

Congratulations Jim.  Who would have thought it nearly 30 years ago.  Destiny Betrayed on film at Cannes.  Quite an accomplishment.

To be honest I didn't find it until the early 2000's , it rocked me.  Well beyond Crossfire by Jim Marr's, found in the late 90's.  

I really meant this.  Wasn't being sarcastic.  I now realize Jim's frustration and can certainly empathize.  I'm frustrated too,  I've wanted to see this since he first posted about it.  Well over a year ago now I believe.   

As Larry alluded to I also have no doubt it is as factually accurate as humanly possible if Jim was there throughout the interviews and production. 

Netflix is where it belongs, where it would get the most views.  Without knowing the details it seems their fact checking is an excuse for handling a hot potato for them.

I'm no kind of a film expert.  But I thought Cannes was the premier film festival in the world.  I. E world exposure for the film.  I then wondered if maybe Sundance might pick it up, not realizing it was already over for the year.  That would have been great,  as they went virtual and anyone could view a given film for a few bucks. 

I still look forward to seeing it somewhere in the not too distant future hopefully.  I've got one of those brainstorming ideas about that.

Meanwhile, congratulations again to you Jim and Mr. Stone on just getting it done.  And Cannes, remember, it is a black tie affair.   

Edited February 14, 2021 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Does that mean I have to wear a suit?

Have to hit up Oliver for that.

[Pat Speer]

Just thinking out loud...

Are Horne's and Mantik's theories on the medical evidence central to the documentary? Because, no matter how one feels about their theories, it's easy to see how a major network or distributor would shy away from a program claiming that JFK's body was altered, etc. And there's a simple reason for this. One phone call from a network or distributor to a Baden or wanna-be Baden would lead them to back off. Guaranteed. 

I mean, I've read a couple of dozen books on forensic pathology. And probably half of these have a reference to the Kennedy assassination. And nearly all of these refer back to Baden, or Spitz, and ignore Mantik and Horne completely. 

I mean, let's face facts. Most networks and/or distributors have gatekeepers--people they consider experts on certain topics with whom they consult as to what is a worthy avenue of investigation. And none of the gatekeepers currently in place will go near body alteration with a ten-foot pole. 

 

 

[Larry Hancock]

Pat's question is interesting, admittedly I'm not that familiar with all of the Netflix, National Geographic, History Channel etc program content etc but in what I have watched I've seen no real sign that any of these outlets have much concern for factual accuracy or for the quality of content - as compared to projected viewership and revenue impact?   And viewership that generally seems to translate into some level of sensation, violence, sex or at least drama (say Ice Road Truckers). At least that's what's in the trailers I do see.

Extreme action also seems to work but I'm missing any indication of factual or historical gatekeeping - that used to occur but does it really happen now?   If the answer is "not much" then that would suggest there is something really special about why Stone's work is being rejected - or is it because it is actually too factional and not extreme or sensational enough to meet their contemporary viewership goals? 

....note to Jim, I think you will be fine with beach clothes unless you want to make the presentation party....the film folks seem to have a pretty relaxed dress code generally speaking.