Jim DiEugenio vs Fred Litwin

[Ron Bulman]

39 minutes ago, David G. Healy said:

ahhh... "a conspiracy murdered JFK"

Strange how many people in the world today don't know the fact the HSCA concluded this.  Or what HSCA even stands for.  Seems the history books and media are a bit convoluted.

[Greg Doudna]

Melba Marcades, Rose Cherami, claimed to Dr. Weiss and Lt. Fruge that:

* she had worked for Ruby as a dancer, and in that capacity knew of a relationship between Ruby and Oswald for many years

* that it was well-known in her dancer circles that Ruby and Oswald were bed-mates

How can there be any truth to that? All claims of Oswald knowing Ruby relate to the final months of the time after Oswald's return to the US from USSR in 1962-1963, and the disputed witness claims of Oswald Ruby contacts center on only the final weeks before Nov 22, 1963, not a lengthy period before that. 

In 1963 Marcades was 39 years old. 

Has there ever been corroboration of any kind produced--a fellow dancer, testimony, records, anything?--that Marcades worked in a Ruby club? 

Did Jack Ruby have a track record of hiring 39-year old women to be exotic dancers? Does that make sense?

And what is it with her claim that Ruby and Oswald knew each other "for years"? And being gay lovers? When there is no substantive basis at all that Oswald ever was gay or bi. 

Yes her story checked out on the drug smuggling in Houston. But that was her line of work and nothing to do with the JFK assassination. The fact that the drug smuggling checked out says nothing about her credibility on the claims of Ruby and Oswald and her involvement with JFK assassins.

According to Lt. Fruge, Marcades did not simply claim the two men with her were going to assassinate JFK, but that she herself was. She said her purpose of her trip was to get to Dallas to deliver drugs, pick up her child, and kill Kennedy. According to Fruge.

Steve Roe has produced a newspaper article from 1957 of Melba Marcades fabricating a claim to have been a participant with inside knowledge in a high-profile murder case in Arizona, that was completely made up. That newspaper article should be major news to everyone here who is interested in the Rose Cherami case. It is new--it is not in any of the Mary Ferrell documents, any of the Garrison investigation documents. Nor--surprisingly--is it anywhere in either edition of Dr. Marcades' books concerning his mother, even though extensive biographical information otherwise is uncovered and told. 

That Melba Marcades--Rose Cherami--made up a story of being a participant/involved in the Arizona murder case, is like the story of the boy who cried "wolf", warning the people of the village, but the boy's cry was not true. In the story, the boy did that a few times, and then one day (so the story goes) there was a real wolf, and he cried "wolf" but the villagers would not believe him. In this case Marcades cried "wolf" falsely in 1957--and nobody until Steve Roe's report within the past several days has known of this. In 1963 she cried "wolf" again. Her claims of involvement with JFK assassins, being a 39-year old dancer in a Ruby nightclub, knowing of Ruby and Oswald as gay lovers--this is the exact same kind of thing as the 1957 Arizona high-profile fabrication, a second cry of "wolf!" She faked it before, and it looks for all the world like she faked it again in 1963, since it is the same kind of thing repeated. That is the starting-point on her allegations now.

The 1957 story discredits Marcades as a witness in her story in 1963 of involvement in the JFK assassination which is exactly the same genre of story as 1957 (high profile; murder; claim of personal association/involvement). It raises the bar very high--requiring hard unambiguous evidence--before believing her on anything in that story. Not in the drug smuggling part, which is her known world and history, but the JFK assassination and Ruby nightclub parts, for which there is zero on-the-record corroboration apart from the arguments of timeline and foreknowledge.

The 1957 Arizona story is a game-changer. There never was any necessary linkage of the Rose Cherami story, to the reasons for supposing the JFK assassination was a hit in which Oswald's actions are not a full and sufficient explanation. That is, there is nothing essential to the actual issues of the JFK assassination in the Rose Cherami story. There is nothing lost by ditching it. 

Steve Roe's 1957 newspaper article has tipped it for me on the Rose Cherami story. Its a sad human case, the story of Melba Marcades. In my case there was the freak coincidence of the Big Sandy, Texas connection, where she was either struck by a car receiving fatal injuries, or foul play, whichever it was, in 1965, and my own journey in the early 1970s from Akron, Ohio to attend a Bible college for 2-1/2 years located at that very town of east Texas of 1,200 people. During my first year there I bought a used motorcycle and spent countless hours riding it on the back roads around Big Sandy including Hwy 155. I know a number of people, related to the now-defunct college, who live there to the present day. My student job on campus (the campus was located on Hwy 80 two miles east of Big Sandy) my freshman year was in the college's Transportation Department servicing church fleet vehicles, and in that shop I worked with a mechanic who was the Big Sandy fire chief, and a heavy-equipment operator who was Big Sandy's mayor, in their off-hours. But for the JFK assassination, my take on this at this point is: the Rose Cherami story does not look credible to me. It looks like a repeat of Arizona 1957.  

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Rose Cherami week continues at Fred's blog:

Did Rose Cherami Ever Work for Jack Ruby? (onthetrailofdelusion.com)

[Steve Roe]

8 hours ago, David G. Healy said:

ahhh... "a conspiracy murdered JFK"

Not in the Rose Cheramie sense.

If you read the HSCA's conclusions carefully, they give a high probability that there were two shooters based on the flawed acoustic study. 

One of the shooters in their conclusion was Oswald.

The HSCA does not conclude that Rose Cheramie had exclusive evidence in the assassination. In fact HSCA staff member Patricia Orr, mentions the story, goes over the details known at the time, and points out the many false stories that Melba Marcades has told. They left it as "inconclusive". 

Again, this is nothing but Urban Legend.

 

 

[Greg Doudna]

Latest Fred Litwin post: "Did Rose Cherami ever work for Jack Ruby?" https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-rose-cherami-ever-work-for-jack-ruby. Pretty compelling of no evidence and not very likely. If someone objects to citing Fred Litwin on this, all I can say is why have JFK pro-conspiracy researchers not done this spadework first in discrediting this story.

[Calvin Ye]

58 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Latest Fred Litwin post: "Did Rose Cherami ever work for Jack Ruby?" https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-rose-cherami-ever-work-for-jack-ruby. Pretty compelling of no evidence and not very likely. If someone objects to citing Fred Litwin on this, all I can say is why have JFK pro-conspiracy researchers not done this spadework first in discrediting this story.

I disagree with you. Fred is not to be trusted  and he is a neocon.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Calvin Ye

[Denny Zartman]

57 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Latest Fred Litwin post: "Did Rose Cherami ever work for Jack Ruby?" https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-rose-cherami-ever-work-for-jack-ruby. Pretty compelling of no evidence and not very likely. If someone objects to citing Fred Litwin on this, all I can say is why have JFK pro-conspiracy researchers not done this spadework first in discrediting this story.

Fred Litwin doesn't even know the contents of his own book.

[Denny Zartman]

Fred Litwin also said Oswald was the only employee missing after the assassination, a clear falsehood. When I called him on it, he said Oswald was the only missing employee that mattered.

He's not someone you can rely on for factual information.

[Calvin Ye]

1 minute ago, Denny Zartman said:

Fred Litwin also said Oswald was the only employee missing after the assassination, a clear falsehood. When I called him on it, he said Oswald was the only missing employee that mattered.

He's not someone you can rely on for factual information.

I said that to Greg, that Fred is not to be trusted

[Denny Zartman]

2 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Latest Fred Litwin post: "Did Rose Cherami ever work for Jack Ruby?" https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-rose-cherami-ever-work-for-jack-ruby. Pretty compelling of no evidence and not very likely. If someone objects to citing Fred Litwin on this, all I can say is why have JFK pro-conspiracy researchers not done this spadework first in discrediting this story.

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Why didn't you do your own spadework, Greg?

Quote

July 18, 1967, Matt Vernon, writer for the Eunice News" Comment CaVa Column," interviewed Lt. Fruge where he confirmed Cherami told him she had been a performer in Jack Ruby's Club. (In 2006, Ann Dishler, Fruge's investigatory partner, confirmed Fruge had sources to this claim who wished to remain unidentified.)

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Quote

...We wish to further state that fingerprint identification shows that deceased subject, MELBA CHRISTINE MARCADES, is the same person as subject ROSE CHERAMIE [sic], who was in custody, by us, from November 21, 1963, through November 28, 1963, at which time she stated that she once worked for JACK RUBY as a stripper, which was verified...

"Rose Cherami: Gathering Fallen Petals" Second Edition, by Dr. Michael Marcades, Peniel Unlimited, LLC, Pages 328 and 339.

[Denny Zartman]

22 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

I thought you had me on "ignore"? What's that all about?

James didn't say he was putting you on ignore, he said he was no longer going to post in your trolling thread. Why are you wasting everyone's time when you apparently aren't even reading the posts of the person you're trying to badger?

[Steve Roe]

7 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

James didn't say he was putting you on ignore, he said he was no longer going to post in your trolling thread. Why are you wasting everyone's time when you apparently aren't even reading the posts of the person you're trying to badger?

You might want to stop and read next time, DiEugenio said this, in this thread.

"In keeping with William N, I have Parnell and Roe on ignore.

After that witless farrago about Kauffmann/Hoover, what else can one do?"

BTW I have that Matt Vernon article with Fruge's picture. Of course she told Fruge that......after November 25th. It was never verified.

However you can prove me wrong if you have evidence that a 39 year old woman danced at Jack Ruby's only strip club, The Carousel. Marcades said it was another name, NOT Carousel. 

[Denny Zartman]

2 hours ago, Calvin Ye said:

I said that to Greg, that Fred is not to be trusted

It can't be said enough. It seems some people are determined to believe Litwin, no matter what.

[Steve Roe]

7 minutes ago, Denny Zartman said:

It can't be said enough. It seems some people are determined to believe Litwin, no matter what.

For Mr. Zartman's education and all the Rose Cheramie "told the truth" believers.

This HSCA interview with Fruge (released in the 2018 documents) show clearly Cheramie telling Fruge about Ruby on the plane ride to Houston. That was of course AFTER November 25, 1963. 

You will notice, it was NOT the Carousel Club. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149188#relPageId=7&search=Fruge

[Denny Zartman]

10 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

It was never verified.

According to Fruge and Dishler, it was verified.

11 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Jack Ruby's only strip club, The Carousel.

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Quote

With two establishments to run, Ruby experienced substantial financial reversals in 1952. He abandoned his interest in the Ranch House and, on July 1, 1952, transferred The Silver Spur to Gimpel and Willie Epstein, who assumed some of its debts. Disappointed by these setbacks, Ruby stated that he had a "mental breakdown," and "hibernated" in the Cotton Bowl Hotel in Dallas for 3 or 4 months, declining to see his friends. Still depressed, he then returned to Chicago, apparently intending to remain there permanently. However, he stayed only 6 weeks. Gimpel and Epstein were anxious to be rid of the Silver Spur and Ruby once again became its owner.

In 1953, Ruby obtained an interest in the Vegas Club, which he operated with Joe Bonds until September 1953. At that time he informed Irving Alkana, who had retained a prior ownership interest, that he was unable to meet his obligations with respect to the club. Alkana then assumed management of the Vegas until June 19, 1954, when, following numerous disagreements with him, he sold Ruby his interest.

Ruby still owned the Vegas Club at the time of his arrest on November 24, 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ruby4.htm