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The Simple Explanation of Why There Were at Least Two Guns in Dealey Plaza


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1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Ron B. 

I agree, but with several caveats. 

Some people might have heard echoes, or might have faulty memories. 

Other confusing factors are the possible use of a gun with a silencer, or a pneumatic gun. Or simultaneous shots. 

Then there is the factor that sound travels at 1,125 fps.  I might honestly hear one gunshot, when in fact two guns were fired, but one gun at 612 feet from me, and another 306 feet from me, but the latter weapon fired a quarter of a second later. 

So people in Dealey Plaza heard three shots, but there could have been more than three shots fired. 

For me, a telling clue is the large number of people, with military and police backgrounds, reporting gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Then the guy with bogus Secret Service credentials near the Grassy Knoll. 

I think even Dr. Watson would get suspicious....

But the important factor, as you point out, is LHO or someone in TSBD was purportedly armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle, and did all the shooting. That dog don't hunt....

 

 

 

Dr. Watson was fictitious.  The witnesses were not.  Of course there were intended echoes from the 6th floor.  They still echo today.

 

Edited by Ron Bulman
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On 6/9/2021 at 8:05 PM, Joseph McBride said:

But unlike Connally, who

suffered massive and obvious hits, Reagan was hit by a small

flattened piece of metal the bullet had turned into when

it hit the side of the car and ricocheted into his armpit, coming close to his heart.

 

I fail to see how being "hit by a small flattened piece of metal," penetrating the body and coming close to the heart, wouldn't hurt immediately. But then I've never been hit by one.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Benjamin, the simplest explanation to me for those unsure of two guns in Dealey Plaza is Boom, Boom-Boom.  That sequence of shots described by multiple witnesses.  The Boom-Boom part being too close together for one gun.  I know lone nutters and others dismiss witnesses statements as being mistaken but they were there, we were not.  jmho

The common explanation is echos but that raises some questions. If Oswald fired all three shots from the same location why did almost everyone report the first shot as a single shot? what happened to that echo? If echos were an issue why did the majority of witnesses report only three shots?
 I also believe the testimony of Greer and Kellerman are especially qualified because in addition to muzzle blast and shockwave they heard the rounds come zinging into the limo. I think it was Kellerman who said he heard a round come in and stop when he heard it hit JFK's head. Greer said 'The last rounds were almost simultaneous", Kellerman "A flurry of shells".
Add 23 or so others who used terms like 'in rapid succession' or 'almost at the same time' and some who demonstrated the timing by tapping a table and you have an extremely compelling case for a second shooter.

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1 hour ago, Chris Bristow said:

The common explanation is echos but that raises some questions. If Oswald fired all three shots from the same location why did almost everyone report the first shot as a single shot? what happened to that echo? If echos were an issue why did the majority of witnesses report only three shots?
 I also believe the testimony of Greer and Kellerman are especially qualified because in addition to muzzle blast and shockwave they heard the rounds come zinging into the limo. I think it was Kellerman who said he heard a round come in and stop when he heard it hit JFK's head. Greer said 'The last rounds were almost simultaneous", Kellerman "A flurry of shells".
Add 23 or so others who used terms like 'in rapid succession' or 'almost at the same time' and some who demonstrated the timing by tapping a table and you have an extremely compelling case for a second shooter.

Chris B.-

Thanks for reading and commenting.

Oh, I agree there had to at least a second shooter, but based on the Z-film. 

Anyone who has worked in and around law, or the court system, knows how dubious witness testimony is. 

Echoes? People might have heard different echoes as they were at different places in Dealey Plaza. Other people just have faulty memories. Some heard four shots. 

Some of the witness testimony is inexplicable. Two TSBD employees side-by-side outside the TSBD watching the motorcade, and one said the shots came from the Grassy Knoll, and other said from the TSBD. Side-by-side!

You are correct, occupants of the Presidential limo described bullets entering the cab as if by "automatic" fire (Connally), or in a "flurry" (Kellerman). 

Based on multiple and credible witness testimony, but backed up by the Z-film, I say we can rule out a single shooter armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle. That dog don't hunt.

I wish I could make heads-or-tails out of the Dallas PD dictabelt, and the experts say it indicates perhaps even five shots. I listened to it a few times and I hear nothing decipherable. 

Of course, if a pneumatic gun was used, that would not even show up on the dictabelt. 

Edited by Benjamin Cole
typo
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14 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Chris B.-

Thanks for reading and commenting.

Oh, I agree there had to at least a second shooter, but based on the Z-film. 

Anyone who has worked in and around law, or the court system, knows how dubious witness testimony is. 

Echoes? People might have heard different echoes as they were at different places in Dealey Plaza. Other people just have faulty memories. Some heard four shots. 

Some of the witness testimony is inexplicable. Two TSBD employees side-by-side outside the TSBD watching the motorcade, and one said the shots came from the Grassy Knoll, and other said from the TSBD. Side-by-side!

You are correct, occupants of the Presidential limo described bullets entering the cab as if by "automatic" fire (Connally), or in a "flurry" (Kellerman). 

Based on multiple and credible witness testimony, but backed up by the Z-film, I say we can rule out a single shooter armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle. That dog don't hunt.

I wish I could make heads-or-tails out of the Dallas PD dictabelt, and the experts say it indicates perhaps even five shots. I listened to it a few times and I hear nothing decipherable. 

Of course, if a pneumatic gun was used, that would not even show up on the dictabelt. 

The witnesses standing next to each other at the TSB and telling different stories is a perfect example of the problems with witnesses. But when the majority tell the same story it is significant and can lead to the truth.
 There is that well known story of the classroom of students who are surprised by a sudden loud argument. Right afterwards they are all asked to recount what they witnessed and 25% get it wrong just minutes after the event. By the next day something like 40% develop false memories. 
 This is considered a strong argument against trusting witnesses but I think it proves eyewitnesses can be used to find the truth. That is because while 25% immediately got the story wrong 75% got it right.
  So the statements taken in the plaza right after the event should be roughly 75% accurate. If statements taken on the second day are 60% consistent with the 75% from the first day it adds to the weight of the witnesses memories.
 Muffled shots and silencers aside over 75% of all the witnesses said they heard three shots. I think that is one of the witness facts we can be fairly sure of.

I always thought the dicta belt recorded a 45ci Harley trike not McClain's 74ci. I always thought McClain had to know if that whistling was him or not. He and the dispatcher swear it is not McClain. McClain said he was not a "whistle wile you work kind of guy". He was a bit gruff actually and I think he would know if it was him whistling.
Then there is the dopplar shift of the sirens passing the open mic. Maybe the issue of the dicta belt combing different channels addresses those oddity's but I have no clue at this point.

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As far as Pat Speer showed, the closest thing to credible evidence for a pre-180 shot is Connally's fast head turn. The witness evidence, on the other hand, seem to strongly support the first loud report happening at that time.  I don't know if there have been experiments showing how unlikely it would be for the fast head turn to be coincidental. Otherwise, seems obvious to be that all of the witness evidence shows the first loud report after z180. God I wish we had an audio recording of this event.

Edited by Micah Mileto
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6 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

As far as Pat Speer showed, the closest thing to credible evidence for a pre-180 shot is Connally's fast head turn. The witness evidence, on the other hand, seem to strongly support the first loud report happening at that time.  I don't know if there have been experiments showing how unlikely it would be for the fast head turn to be coincidental. Otherwise, seems obvious to be that all of the witness evidence shows the first loud report after z180. God I wish we had an audio recording of this event.

Micah M---

Thanks for reading.

In the Z-film, JFK seems fine, but then goes behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, and thereafter looks injured. 

He can be see waving at the crowd at Z-190, seems fine, then possibly something wrong at Z-201, but then JFK goes behind the sign. 

JFK emerges from behind the sign at Z-225, and everyone seems alarmed, and JFK injured. 

Sure looks like JFK was struck at Z-200-225. 

It is possible there was a shot before Z-200 that missed, or that there were shots that were muffled, or that there were simultaneous shots heard as one shot. 

That's my take.

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Micah M---

Thanks for reading.

In the Z-film, JFK seems fine, but then goes behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, and thereafter looks injured. 

He can be see waving at the crowd at Z-190, seems fine, then possibly something wrong at Z-201, but then JFK goes behind the sign. 

JFK emerges from behind the sign at Z-225, and everyone seems alarmed, and JFK injured. 

Sure looks like JFK was struck at Z-200-225. 

It is possible there was a shot before Z-200 that missed, or that there were shots that were muffled, or that there were simultaneous shots heard as one shot. 

That's my take.

I have seen some others speculate that the first loud report could've been at the z180's. Pat Speer puts it at z190-224. 224 is Connally's apparent label flop.

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On 6/9/2021 at 5:32 AM, Benjamin Cole said:

 

The Simple Explanation of Why There Were at Least Two Guns in Dealey Plaza

It is beyond reasonable doubt that at least two shots were fired in Dealey Plaza on Nov. 22 within too short a time to have been executed by a single-shot bolt action rifle.

How can this assertion be made?

Due to the unwavering testimony of Governor John Connally, his wife, and of several witnesses, all confirmed by the Zapruder film. 

Secret Service agents Clint Hill and Sam Kinney, and presidential aide David Powers, close at the scene on Nov. 22, all say there were three separate shots that struck President John F. Kennedy and Connally that day. Among other witnesses.  

Lee Harvey Oswald’s purported rifle that day was a single-shot bolt action rifle, the infamous Mannlicher-Carcano found in the TBSD.

Ergo, that means there was a second gun firing at JFK that day.  

The JFKA research community is to be deeply admired for dreadnought pursuit of truth over the decades, but this simple, compelling and presentable story seems to have been buried.

So let us review: 

Frame 225

173113128_ScreenShot2564-06-08at12_31_31copy.jpg.944a1d2057b1b40534ff8d5ff142af72.jpg

In frame 225 of the Z-film, we see President Kennedy’s hands reaching for his neck or throat as the president emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign. 

By witness testimony and Z-film confirmation, JFK has been shot at this point, whether from front or rear. Jackie Kennedy is looking at her husband, and concerned.  Connally is beginning to react, and turn around to see what happened. 

The WC posited—and inexplicably, the HSCA accepted—that Governor John Connally was also stuck by frame 225. And not only that, but by the very same bullet that struck JFK, now known as the “magic bullet.” 

Connally flatly refuted the WC version, in his testimony to the WC, and many times thereafter (and recorded on film), as did his wife, who was seated next to him that day in the limousine. 

Eventually, two Secret Service men and the presidential aide would reveal they concurred with the Connallys—that is, the first shot struck JFK, a separate second shot hit Connally, and a third shot struck JFK. 

Connally explicitly testified he heard the first shot, the one that struck JFK in the neck or throat. Connally was seated in the limousine, in a seat in front of JFK. 

Frame 284

1969584607_ScreenShot2564-06-08at12_33.56copy.jpg.982a8c65ed1dd378c9cb9f31b069f97f.jpg

Connally recounted he then turned around to peer over  his own right shoulder, trying to get a glimpse at JFK. And indeed the Z film at frame 284 shows the profile of the left side of Connally’s face—that is, Connally all but made a 180-degree turn in his seat to look for JFK. But after being struck in the neck, JFK had slumped towards Jackie Kennedy, to JFK’s left and out of Connally’s view. 

The WC version is, in essence, is that Connally was unaware he had been shot through the chest, had a shattered right wrist and leg wound, and then made a 180-degree turn in his seat to look for JFK. 

This does not hold water. 

The Z film confirms the Connally version, and that of the Secret Service agents and other close witnesses. Indeed, as stated, the left profile of Connally’s face is seen in frame 284, and he appears to looking for JFK, just as he consistently remembered and testified. Connally’s face is uncontorted, and does not show pain in frame 284.

Frame 300 

1864767386_ScreenShot2564-06-08at20_40.26copy.jpg.73d5bd399334933520dd0d6c266e1d10.jpg

As he testified, Connally then begins to unwind himself to face forward, when he was struck. On the Z-film, Connally looks to have been struck ~296, and certainly looks distressed at ~300.

The Z film runs at about 18 frames per second, meaning Connally was struck about four seconds after JFK received his neck or throat shot. 

Frame 313 

167783913_ScreenShot2564-06-08at12_35.16copy.jpg.d9447f3ed27a9aa6ea8d05c0a38be435.jpg

And herein lies the story of why there were at least two guns that day in Dealey Plaza: Without dispute, a third shot strikes JFK in the head at Z-film frame 313.

Of course, the result of the above sequence is there is about one second between the shot that struck Connally and the subsequent shot that struck JFK. 

As even new JFKA researchers know, the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle—to repeat, a single-shot bolt action rifle—requires a bare minimum of two seconds to manually operate between shots. 

This sequence, of a shot, then a four-second delay until the next shot, and then a one-second delay until the third shot, lines up with what many witnesses said that day: That there was one shot, a short delay, and then two shots in close succession. 

While witness testimony can be garbled and inconsistent, in this case the exact unwavering testimony of the Connallys is backed up by the Z-film. 

It is likely it this sequence and timing of shots that so bedeviled the WC, and in concert with Connally's straightforward testimony became the primary reason suppressing the Z-film and the invention of the single-shot theory, that of a bullet that passed through JFK and Connally.

If one suspects the Z-film has been altered, that is fine. The alterationists were unable to mask the timing and sequence of the shots.

Conclusion

The scholarship of the JFKA community, and the hunger for a nuanced understanding of the politics and mechanics of the assassination and the subsequent cover-up is to be deeply admired. 

Necessarily, JFKA researchers will go down some rabbit holes in search of the truth, and evolve some arcane and tortured narratives. 

And to be sure, the real truth may not be an easy-to-digest made-for-TV movie story. 

But for public consumption, the JFKA community has a true and easy to understand explanation of why there were two guns firing that day in Dealey Plaza, the one presented here. Two guns firing mean, at the very minimum, a conspiracy.

I am going to try to present this truth to mainstream publications, before President Joe Biden decides on Oct. 26 whether or not to release the remaining more-than 15,000 files still suppressed, as he should under John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992.

I hope others do also. 

Epilogue

Of course, everyone who watches the Z film notices the violent lurch JFK's body made after being shot in the head, to JFK’s back and left, as if shot from the Grassy Knoll. No doubt this bit of recorded celluloid history also made the WC very nervous. 

And in fact JFK may have been struck from a shot the Grassy Knoll. But the idea that bodies are violently propelled away from a gunshot is not always true, as hunters and soldiers can attest. Often, bodies do not move much after receiving a bullet, as seen by the first shot to JFK, and the second shot to Connally. For public consumption, this line of inquiry—the probable Grassy Knoll shot—can get muddied and twisted. 

It is regrettable that the acoustical evidence is simply not intelligible by the public in the way the Z film is. For example, when I listen to the Dallas Police Department dictabelt, said to be from an open mike on a Dallas motor cop’s cycle during the assassination, I hear nothing decipherable. 

However, how many people can believe that after being shot through the chest and having his right wrist shattered by a bullet, Connally would make a 180-degree turn in his chair to check on JFK, unaware that he (Connally) had been shot?  

I’d encourage anyone who would like to understand the objective historical reality of what actually happened on that day to make a serious effort to understand the scientific evidence that is now available. Within that the acoustic evidence is actually relatively easy to follow if you put your mind to it. The data in it can not be detected by the human ear but has been extensively studied and it is critical to a coherent model of the assassination.

I agree that the time intervals between shots from the rear are too tight to all have come from the Mannlicher-Carcano….beyond that would take a book….and it’s already been done.

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It was reported two colleagues of Captain James Young discovered a ‘spent misshapen bullet’ whilst looking for skull fragments in the limo at Bethesda. Could this bullet have travelled through JBC only to spend itself on the driver/rear passenger divider? That’s my rear shot theory, or half of it...

Because what I can’t explain is how the wrist/thigh shot  (SW window) left only what was described as a ‘puncture wound’ in JBC’s thigh....similar to JFK’s back wound.

That only leaves.......ice bullets. There, I said it.



 

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I'd like to see this technology applied (if it's technically possible) to a close crop following only the Kennedys and Connallys in the limo, plus another close crop following the Connallys and Greer-Kellerman.  I think we'd see some useful things.

 

Edited by David Andrews
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11 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

It was reported two colleagues of Captain James Young discovered a ‘spent misshapen bullet’ whilst looking for skull fragments in the limo at Bethesda. Could this bullet have travelled through JBC only to spend itself on the driver/rear passenger divider? That’s my rear shot theory, or half of it...

Because what I can’t explain is how the wrist/thigh shot  (SW window) left only what was described as a ‘puncture wound’ in JBC’s thigh....similar to JFK’s back wound.

That only leaves.......ice bullets. There, I said it.



 

Sean, I think you mean in the White House garage.

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12 hours ago, Anthony Mugan said:

I’d encourage anyone who would like to understand the objective historical reality of what actually happened on that day to make a serious effort to understand the scientific evidence that is now available. Within that the acoustic evidence is actually relatively easy to follow if you put your mind to it. The data in it can not be detected by the human ear but has been extensively studied and it is critical to a coherent model of the assassination.

I agree that the time intervals between shots from the rear are too tight to all have come from the Mannlicher-Carcano….beyond that would take a book….and it’s already been done.

Anthony M-

Thanks for reading and commenting. 

"The data in it (acoustic evidence) can not be detected by the human ear but has been extensively studied and it is critical to a coherent model of the assassination."--AM

You may be correct, but right away we have a problem, for general public consumption. 

The public hears this: That experts took the DPD dictabelt, put it into a black box for analysis, and determined it backs up the WC, or it does not. 

Josiah Thompson explains what happened here, and it does look like the Alvarez-Ramsey team was a hatchet job, not true analysis. 

https://whowhatwhy.org/2021/05/28/the-original-inconvenient-truth/

My true story, for public consumption, is that the single-shooter WC crowd posits that Connally was shot through the chest, had a fractured right wrist and other injuries, and then did a 180- degree turn in his chair to check on JFK. 

Anyone can see this is the WC version, and (sadly) even the HSCA version, by a simple review of the Z-film. 

I contend the WC version does not hold water on its own, and moreover conflicts with the explicit testimony of Connally and his wife, and others, who recount separate shots hit JFK, then Connally, then JFK.  Connally also remembers the shot he took as immediately incapacitating. 

Adding to the muddle:

Speaking of Thompson, he now says another bullet struck JFK in the head 7/10ths of a second after Z-313. OK, at 18 frames per second that works out ~326. 

I wonder what Thompson is talking about. 

A frame by frame version of the Z film. 

https://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n2/zfilm/zframe327.html

I see nothing. Also, no one in the limo saw or heard the fourth shot either. I am mystified. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, David Andrews said:

I'd like to see this technology applied (if it's technically possible) to a close crop of only the Kennedys and Connallys in the limo, plus another close crop of the Connallys and Greer-Kellerman.  I think we'd see some useful things.

 

David A--

There is a Z-film online that stabilizes on Connally, and agonizingly I lost the link. Great idea.

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On 6/12/2021 at 5:03 AM, Micah Mileto said:

As far as Pat Speer showed, the closest thing to credible evidence for a pre-180 shot is Connally's fast head turn. The witness evidence, on the other hand, seem to strongly support the first loud report happening at that time.  I don't know if there have been experiments showing how unlikely it would be for the fast head turn to be coincidental. Otherwise, seems obvious to be that all of the witness evidence shows the first loud report after z180. God I wish we had an audio recording of this event.

Micah,  Where did the recording made by Dallas radio newsman Sam Pate that was given to the WC  go to?  The FBI had this recording but found nothing.  However, the Commission sent it to Bell Telephone who indicated there were 'six nonvoiced noises'.

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